The World Cup finale: Messi, Madonna and a $50 million prize | Pitchside 6

46 teams come and gone, 102 bruising matches played, 297 goals, 204 hydration breaks, and $50 million up for grabs. And now it all comes down to this, the World Cup Final. And we'll tell you all about it on Pitchside. Well, I'm here as always with Oshin Shan, our Global Sports Editor, and Arisa Prasern, our Global TV Sports Editor. How are you both doing? Yeah, great. Great to be back in New York after a semi-final in Dallas. A little bit tired, to be honest, but yeah, great. It's coming to an end. I think we had a great, what, five weeks now, I think. Yeah, but it's great. It's all coming to an end on Sunday. And what a final we have in store. Great final. Two great teams, both hitting form at just the right time. I think it's going to be... Not a final everyone expected, I guess. I think we all expected France in the final, but they were nowhere to be seen against Spain. So I think two well-deserved finalists on Sunday. Well, I want to talk about both teams, their strengths, their weaknesses, obviously how they stack up against each other. But first, let's take a look at how Spain managed to make it to their first World Cup Final in 16 years. It ended in euphoria, but Spain's journey to the World Cup Final started with a slip-up. On paper, the European champions couldn't have asked for a better opening draw. It was Cape Verde, an island nation of just 500,000 people whose squad was plucked from lower leagues and social media sites. But Cape Verde and its veteran goalkeeper Voxenia held out under a relentless Spanish onslaught to earn a nil-nil draw. A head-scratcher for pundits and Spanish players alike. Is that why so many people around the world wrote them off against France on Tuesday? If so, maybe we lost focus. Because from then on out, Spain looked exactly the juggernaut we expected. Against Saudi Arabia, it was 4-0. Against Uruguay, a comfortable 1-0. Austria could do no better in the knockout rounds, 3-0. Nor could Iberian rivals Portugal, 1-0. Notice a theme, nil, nada, cero. That's been the story of Spain's tournament. It was only Belgium in the quarterfinals who managed a goal against Las Rojas. And even that wasn't enough. 2-1 to Spain and a trip to the semis. And that's where Spain's tournament was supposed to end. Against the buzzsaw that was the French forward line, Ballon d'Or winners, world beaters, so many GOAT contenders that every pitch the French took looked like a pasture. And that's exactly where Spain sent them. It's a team built on stability, unity, control. No real superstars, no golden boot candidates. Just one word, karma. Our Gosha Wojtunic was outside the stadium in Dallas on Tuesday and found Spanish fans who were anything but. Long after the final whistle, Spanish fans were still celebrating with and all the other chants celebrating the victory of their team. So why do you think Spain came into the semifinal as underdogs? In retrospect, it almost feels naive. I think they started the tournament very quietly, I guess. Or maybe like, you know, I guess Cape Verde, they were not Spain that we're used to seeing. And everyone started talking, oh, you know, can Spain do it? Everyone was excited about France. But I think that that held their composure. I mean, their ball control is unbelievable. They play so well together as a team. I think that La Fuente has just built an incredible team. And I think their midfield is unstoppable, really. I think on Sunday they got a great chance against Argentina. Yeah. I mean, I think everybody was looking to, I mean, Yamal, is this going to be, he hasn't been their superstar. It's Rodri, isn't it? And it's been the collective power of that team. Yeah. And Rodri, sort of as a player, the way that he plays the game sort of encapsulates the way that the entire Spain team plays. Control, rigidity, power in the midfield. That's right. I mean, we saw that against France. They totally overran the French in midfield. And it's all very well having the most potent strikers in the world. If they can't get the ball or have any breathing space to play, there's not much you can do. And Spain just controlled that match so comprehensively from the start. Can I ask you, Osh, you read the game on Tuesday. Spain dominant. Were they boring? It wasn't boring. I mean, it wasn't the sort of exciting football that you see from France. Right. But it was so effective. I mean, it was painful to see France repeatedly come up, drawing a blank, have no answer to the Spanish control. And so, yes, it can be boring. And there's lots of lateral passing. And it's not sort of thrusting, dynamic front and back football. But they just deny their opponents any chance, any ball, any oxygen, really. So it was kind of like a slow death seeing France kind of bleed out there. You described them as an anaconda. Yeah, they were. They were like an anaconda. They just squeezed and squeezed and ratcheted and never let up. And the French were just helpless. And I think off the pitch as well. I think there's just something about their calmness. There's no drama. You know, there's no real superstars like, you know, we've seen in Mbappé or Messi or, you know, yes, we've got Lamine Yamao. But I think the real superstars. And he hasn't been the superstar. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I went to the training of Spain at the Cotton Bowl before the game and the players were just so relaxed. I mean, I don't think I've seen a squad so relaxed, laughing, joking, moving the ball around. There's zero tension because they know what they can do. They're playing for fun for each other. It's a really impressive setup that he's got there. I think they just speak to the right time. I think they just built this form incredibly well at the World Cup. As all the great teams do, right? It doesn't matter what they couldn't score against Cape Verde when you see what they did against France. Right. Well, they're going to have their hands full on Sunday against Argentina. And Argentina are on the brink of becoming the first country to repeat as champions since Brazil in 1962. Let's take a look at how they got here. If it's been calmer for Spain, the word of Argentina's tournament has been entirely different. Pressure. Or as one fan in Times Square put it after the semifinal against England. If we don't suffer, it's not Argentina. You know what I mean? The group stage was stress free for the reigning champions. There was no suffering to speak of as Lionel Messi glided around the pitch like a player half his age bagging a hat trick against Algeria. A pair of goals against Austria. And then for good measure, why not find in the back of the net on a free kick against Jordan? Smooth sailing like a cruise down the Rio de la Plata. But then came rough waters. In the round of 32 against Cape Verde. Yes, the same Cape Verde that spoiled Spain's opening match. It took extra time to seal a 3-2 win. How could it be, we wondered, that Argentina was so frazzled, so nearly felled by Cape Verde. A fluke, we thought. A bit of bad fortune. But then it happened again against Egypt in the round of 16. Down 2-0 late in the game before a trio of heroic goals saw Argentina through. Stress against Switzerland too in the quarterfinals. Argentina pushed and pushed but only managed a breakthrough after the whistle for the 90th minute had blown. Is it any surprise then that on Wednesday against England, they crawled back to win by a goal after going 1-0 down? Any surprise that a team of destiny, a team so often graced by God, that scored 11 goals after the 75th minute in this tournament, is it any surprise that they managed to do so again? Spain may enter the final as favorites, but if Argentina pull off yet another World Cup victory, no one can say they're surprised any longer. Our Nick Mulvaney was outside Atlanta Stadium with more. I'm standing outside Atlanta Stadium a couple of hours after the Argentina against England World Cup semi-final. And it's the Argentinians who are going home happy after their come-from-behind 2-1 win, which sends them back to the World Cup final for the second tournament in a row. The Argentina fans who outnumbered the English at least 2-1 in the stadium went crazy. The team ran over and mauled Messi. No goals for him today, but a big, big influence on the result. We've spent a lot of time, and deservedly so, talking about Lionel Messi on this show. But what else has brought Argentina to this final? I think Messi definitely holds the team together. I think he gives them that push that they need in critical moments. They are not panicking. You know, when their back's against the wall, they don't panic. They score. You know, they go there and they deliver. And everyone on the pitch delivers. They know what their role is. And I think they fight incredibly well, and they don't give up. And I think that's what not surprised me, really. I guess that's Argentina, right? Yeah. I mean, it's an incredibly symbiotic relationship because they all play for Messi, and Messi is good enough to repay that with moments of magic. This is what happened against England. And he's playing in such a smart way, and he's moving to places where he can have a bit more timing. We saw it against England. He just moved back to the right, away from that low block that England were putting on. Gave himself space, and he's still got all those skills to be able to put in the crosses, square the ball the way he did. Both goals he was central to. But he, you know, we say the team are all playing for Messi. He's playing for the team. You know, the comeback wins, the nail-biting victories that we saw throughout the knockout round. Where do you think this belief comes from? I think they've got a great survival instinct. Yeah. I mean, you know, with a team like that, when you have Messi as a leader, and everyone working for the team, I think it's difficult to lose. They haven't lost yet. Yeah. I mean, I think this is a team that doesn't know how to lose, right? I mean, they're the reigning World Cup champions. They won the Copa America. I can't think when they last lost. And if you've got, as you say, if they've got someone like Messi pulling the strings, then why do you think you're going to lose? Spain is, of course, a team built around possession. Argentina loves having and holding the ball, too. What sort of match are we in for between these two? I think, like I said before, if Spain can keep their composure, and if they can keep calm and, you know, do what they did against France and just completely control the midfield, I think Argentina will struggle. But, you know, they will do everything they can. So never rule Argentina out. You can't rule Argentina out. Don't change that channel. I think, look, I think if Spain keep that calm and they score an early goal, they're in with a chance. But then again, you know, we've seen Argentina coming back again and again. So yeah, the first 20 minutes will be fascinating because I think it will be very physical in midfield. And, you know, they'll really look to unsettle them. They'll look to beat them on the break. But all the real hard work and the attrition is going to be going on in midfield. Welcome back. So, Osh, Ursa, we've talked a bit about the prospective winners. Let's talk about a few of the losers. That's England and France, whose campaigns ended in such disappointment this week. First, France. What went wrong for them? I think they just didn't find an answer for Spain's ball possession and control. I think there were, you know, their trio, fierceful trio, I guess, Bape, Ulisse and Dembele just were nowhere to be seen. They just couldn't play. I mean, I haven't recognised, I didn't recognise them actually in that game. And I think there was a bit of pressure maybe for France as well, because everyone thought they were favourites, the way they played, the way they, you know, the campaign went until that semi-final. Huge disappointment in France. You know, the strikers just never showed up, really. Nor did they drop back and try and help the midfield out. They were overrun in midfield. They couldn't get the ball. Two shots on goal, didn't they, France? Two shots on goal, which is extraordinary. You know, they just overrun every other team up till that game. And they had no answer to Spain's possession. Throughout the team, they just underperformed. And it was such a shame, because, you know, the great teams build towards the end of the tournament. And they looked as though they were doing that. They looked more impressive each game, hadn't they? I think a shock, really. Because, you know, we were just seeing them basically after the group stages, everyone was saying, well, France has no competition, including me. I didn't think they had any competition at this World Cup. It was days ago that we were talking about this team as potentially the greatest World Cup team ever. Certainly the greatest forward line ever. There was very little disagreement about that. But England, let's talk about them. What went wrong for them on Wednesday? Oh, I mean, you know, so disappointing, because it was, in so many ways, it seemed like a needless loss, you know, to be five minutes away from their first World Cup final in 60 years. You don't need to be an expert to know that you can't give the world's greatest footballer and a very strong strike force 30 minutes of shooting practice. I mean, they're going to score. I think everybody, apart from perhaps Thomas Tuchel, could see that that was going to be the outcome. So is it right to focus most of the attention or so on Thomas Tuchel? Well, I think, look, the changes he's made, the way the team played after that goal, I think, you know, retreat, retreat, retreat, right? You know, you don't do that. And that must have been his call. Exactly that. And look, to do that against Mexico is one thing. To do that against Norway is another thing. But to do it against the world's greatest footballer, we keep saying it, is insanity. It was such an emotional match, too, when we saw political slogans being bandied about after the game. This is a rivalry with such an intense history. It seems like Argentina were maybe ready for that sort of physical, emotional match and England, slightly less so. Yeah, yeah, certainly. I mean, as we said before, this is how Argentina play. And then, you know, just different styles of football. A lot of Latin American teams play that way. They're very physical. They get inside your head. I think they were easily good enough to win that game. And they were, you know, as they'd proven for 85 minutes, but just didn't have the mental toughness or the tactical nails to get it over the line. Or the leadership. Well, they'll be disappointed, of course, not to play this Sunday. And it's not just the players that will be taking center stage at the final. They'll be joined at halftime by a veritable who's who of musical superstars. The show is being produced by the charity Global Citizen, and Roders producer Alicia Powell was joined by its CEO, Hugh Evans. So the headline, what are you hoping it is on that Monday morning following the halftime show? I think the day after the first ever FIFA World Cup halftime show, my dream headline would be the largest gathering of incredible artists for a cause since Live Aid. And that cause is making sure that the 270 million children who currently don't have access to quality education can get access to quality education. There's always been this intersection between sports and arts and culture. I've always believed that. And so, yes, this is the world's largest sporting event. But it's also an enormous cultural event. And I think that music is that great united. The great thing about music is you don't need to pick a side. You know, you can love that song and you can sing along with it and you can be part of it. It's really exciting because, you know, even the fact that you're talking about last World Cup having 1.5 billion viewers, which is 13 Super Bowls in one night. So the scale of it is extraordinary. And I think that this is really the world's moment where the whole world is united. So this will be the first FIFA World Cup halftime show. It caps off a spectacular tournament. And I mean that in the dictionary definition of the word. Is this the sort of scale, the sort of entertainment value that we should expect from World Cups going forward? Or is it only fit for an American World Cup? Well, let's see. Yeah, let's see how much money it pulls in. These things very rarely go backwards. It seems like it's going to be hugely successful and hugely popular. You've got Madonna, you've got Justin Bieber, you've got BTS, Shakira. So, you know, what more could you want, really? It's definitely not just a sports event, is it, on Sunday? And once the teams have kind of sucked it up the first time, it's very hard. You know, the precedent's been set. I mean, they're not meant to have more than a 15 minute break, but this thing's going to go on at least 25 minutes, I would say. You've got the 11 minute show. They say 11 minutes, but are you really going to pull people like Shakira and the Bieber off and wrap them up? I think it's a longer show than Super Bowl, isn't it? Yeah. But, you know, there's also something in it. I was talking to a fan in New York yesterday. Well, not a football fan, as it turned out to be. I said, oh, you know, he said, are you here for the football? And I said, yes. You know, I'm covering the World Cup. Are you enjoying it? He said, well, you know, I'm not really watching the games. And I was like, OK. He said, but I am going to Central Park to the Fan Zone on Sunday to watch the final, but not to watch the football, but to watch the halftime show. Just for the halftime show. Just for the halftime show. Wow. That says it all. The game is growing. So overall, looking back, has this been a successful tournament for FIFA? I think it has been, right? It has been. You know, the stadiums were full. That money's coming in, right? At an alarming rate. Yeah. I think we've seen some great games. We've seen some great goals. You know, the big stars performed as well. So apart from some criticism about hydration breaks. Some political controversy. But I think all in all, I think it went really well. There have been great stories, great football. 50% more matches this time than the previous one. And all the stadiums have been sold out. So the appetite is there. And, you know, it's a longer tournament, so it's hard to keep that momentum. But they did. Like for, what, 38 days? We've kept that momentum and everything's going well. And absolutely, there have not been any more sort of flashpoints or problems than any other World Cup. This hasn't been a problematic World Cup at all. It's gone really smoothly, which is an aiming feat over three countries. I mean, there hasn't, I can't think of anything that's stood out that we haven't encountered at previous World Cups. Welcome back. Well, you both are counting down the hours, really, until the final whistle of the tournament blows. How does it feel coming to an end? I remember walking into the office when we got here over a month ago now, and I saw 104 matches on that big chart that we had on the wall. And I was like, oh, my God, that's going to be a very long tournament. But it actually went really fast. And I enjoyed it, most of it. So it's a little bit of sadness that it came to an end. What will that first nap feel like when you get home? I don't know how long it's going to be, to be honest. Dreamless exhaustion. I think it'd be sort of more coma than that. It doesn't stop. The sport doesn't stop there. It's the end of World Cup. But, you know, the sport will continue. Well, the tournament has been a marathon for you guys and just about everyone else involved, players and staff and even broadcasters and fans. Take a look. Probably ease off the karaoke or ease off too many nights. It's quite tempting when you're in California and you got a bit of downtime. This is Joe Spade, a World Cup commentator for the British broadcaster ITV. He covered a dozen games during the tournament across North America. You go to a bar and watch a game, but you're always quite conscious of not speaking too loudly, shouting too loudly. So how do you feel after a match physically, mentally? It's quite an exhausting process. And then you add in the travel and some of the early starts. So kickoff times were quite varied. I don't think you feel it at the time because you're just so excited to be there. And these games keep coming thick and fast. And it's just brilliant. It's when you come home, actually, when I came home, you just, that adrenaline goes away and you just sort of like sit back and you're cranky. That was a month of very, very intensive work. You might have a game which is quite dull and you're having to create the interest and keep it moving along because to be honest, it might be hard watching people at home. You're trying to maintain their interest. And those are the games where actually during the game, you can feel that this is taking a bit of effort. And it's not just commentators who are recovering from a long tournament. I'm here in Times Square inside a cube, literally a cube in the middle of Times Square where two fans have been watching every single game as part of Fox Sports' coverage of the tournament. Hey guys. How's it going? Thanks for coming. I mean, even though it's just sitting down, but it's like, you're trying to keep your energy up. You're not trying to, you know, get too comfortable in a sense. That's Kevin Okoto. He's one of two superfans selected by U.S. broadcaster Fox One to watch all 104 matches of the 2026 World Cup. Oh, well, we've had to do so many squats. I mean, it's just like up, goal scored and then back down, right? And then up and then you're back down. So it's the physical demand on our quads I think has really been a challenge. So we've made sure to train for that. And that's Austin Franklin. Alongside Kevin, he's getting paid $50,000 for the six-week gig. Going back to normal life, it's going to be, it's going to be weird. It's like, this has been our routine for the past month and a half. Just this opportunity to be able to experience the World Cup through whipping in a glass box in Times Square is a heck of a thing to put on a resume. And no matter the vantage, whether you're watching from the commentary box or the living room couch, these three guys all seem to agree. If FIFA wants to add even more games in 2030, well, bring it on. It's not really a job, man. That's how my boss does that, but it's just great fun. Yeah. I'm ready to run it back. Yeah. Give us 104 more. Make it 208 next World Cup. Every country in the world. Everyone come along. Let's see what happens. 208. Make it 416. Double it. Keep going. Well, it's stoppage time. Our final stoppage time. And I've got two tough ones for you. Here's the first. 2030 beckons. Around 1400 days to go until kickoff. Who's counting? And we'll be missing some of football's biggest names. We will probably be missing Nassi. We will probably be missing Ronaldo. So way too early. But let's get you on the record. Who will be winning the 2030 World Cup? Well, I guess England thinks. England, right? I would say Spain. If they can keep the momentum. If Flamengo, you know, he's going to be, what, 23 at the next World Cup. I think, you know, Spain. Not Argentina with a 44-year-old Messi pulling the strings from goal. France with Zidane, right? So who knows? But, you know, if I would say today, I would probably say Spain. If they can keep De La Fuente. Well, I mean, I don't think Messi will be playing as a 44-year-old, but very hard to rule Argentina out. They've just got this great tournament team. England, you would hope. I think they'll be thereabouts in the mix. Again, they've got a young team. France, it will be interesting. We're expecting Zidane to be coached in 2030. They've, again, certainly got the players if they can go again. Well, oh, she can't name all the teams. You have to pick one. Who's it going to be? I'm writing it down. Ursa said Spain. Well, I'll say Argentina with Messi still involved in the squad. OK, Argentina. I'm going to save this, laminate this piece of paper. OK, you answered the tough one. Potentially 64 teams to choose from there in 2030. Here's the easy one. Only two teams to choose from. OK, who wins on Sunday? I have to go with Spain now. Spain. I don't even need to change what I wrote down. I think Spain on penalties. Spain on penalties. Done. For posterity's sake. Well, you know Messi's going to score now, right? And he's going to miss his penalty. Well, thank you both so much. This has been just so much fun. It's been great. Thank you. It's been a fantastic, fantastic podcast. Fantastic working with you. Appreciate you as ever. Appreciate you both. And I think you are looking forward to see Justin Bieber more than the final on Sunday. Is that right? I'm with your guy in Central Park. Thanks to everyone for tuning in. If you missed an episode of Pitchside, you can watch it on Reuters.com, the Reuters app, YouTube, Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. And a huge thank you to the team that put Pitchside together. Freddie Joyner, Jenna Zucker, Sharon Reich-Garson, Jonathan Sayers, Josh Sommer, Andrew Hofstetter and Lela de Kretzer and so many others. See you in 2030.