Wine Tasting And Talking About The 100 Point Scale, Terroir, Biodynamic, Natural Wine And More

Some months ago, through Instagram, I met Frank from Frank Drinks Wine. Brilliant postings there. If you haven't checked it out, you definitely should. But he and I agreed that we would collaborate on a wine video on my next trip to Southern California. Well, that just happened. We shot the video. We talked about a couple of wines. He had questions about a number of wine-related topics as well. The video was posted to his Instagram. I thought it would also be fitting for YouTube as well on my channel. I did a little bit of editing just to tighten up the content a bit. But essentially, you're seeing it as it played out. I hope you enjoy the video. I have a guest, a master of wine, Bob Polinsky. And today, I'm going to ask Bob a lot of pressing questions, poignant questions. Maybe a little controversial, but we'll keep it real, like always. Bob, why don't you tell the people watching a little bit about your background? So look, I've been in the wine business a long, long time, over 40 years. My entire working life has been in the wine business. I own retail stores. I've worked for large companies in the U.S. and in Australia. I've been a master of wine for just over 20 years. And even though this has been my life, I never get tired of it. Good. I mean, there's only, what, 400 master of wines worldwide. I mean, it's a very difficult prestigious. Not many. It's about 415, something like that. The program's been around since 1953. For me, I passed just over 20 years ago. I was the 19th North American. That's pretty impressive. So today, I got a lot of questions. And guys, if you're watching, we're going to go into the 100 point systems. We're going to go into natural wine. We're going to talk about, you know, what's going on with Burgundy. But before that, let's, you know, let's wet our lips a little bit. I got right here. 2019, by far, Irowera Chardonnay from Geelong, Victoria. It sells for about $49. And let's, Bob, why don't you just kind of describe the wine a little bit for us and, you know, tell us what you think about the wine. Yeah, so this is an area that's just outside of Melbourne. And this is the place where I lived. Victoria is one of the most amazing wine regions in the world. And Frank and I, we were talking a bit off camera. Australia does not get the love that it deserves. And why is that? Well, in the American market, I mean, you travel abroad. So you see it from everywhere. I know in America, Australia is really struggling. But how about in Asia, Europe? Is that the same thing? It's not the same everywhere. And if you go back, if you've been around for a long time in the wine trade, you go back 25, 30 years ago, Australian wine in the U.S. was a big deal. And I mean, in grocery stores, you walked into a large grocery store, you'd find this massive set of Australian wine. You think, well, why was that? And I think it was really a perfect storm that propelled the business. It's back when, what was it? 96, 92, something like, whenever the Sydney Olympics were that true attention you had. If you're old enough to remember music like Men at Work, which was everywhere on the radio back in the day. Yeah, not sure who that is, but yeah. But even you go back years ago, crocodile Dundee movies were huge. Yeah, I know that. All of these things really brought attention. The Aussie was super cool in the wine world in the late 90s, early 2000s. And it didn't have the competition that it has today. Argentina, Chile, they were players in the wine business, but not major exporters. So what happened is, you think Australia, you're on the other side of the world, you're going to ship wine to the States. It takes a long time. There's expense. I mean, it's not an easy thing to do. And eventually, because they really played their cards wrong and they were selling, I'm going to call them commodity wines. Yeah, like Yellowtail. They just call it Yellowtail Shiraz, right? And Yellowtail came into the States 2000, 2001. Yeah. And take a look at it today. Right. The price is basically the same as what it was 20 years ago. The only thing that did not go out with inflation is Yellowtail Shiraz. Right? Yeah, who hasn't had a happy thought? But what happened is the whole business for Australia collapsed. Okay. And Australia is really dominated by just a few large wine companies. And that's what was sent to the US. So when you saw brands like Lindemann and Rosemont and that kind of thing, it came from the big companies. Okay, okay. What we're drinking here and what Australia is really all about today is artisanal, small production, wines that have a sense of place. Yeah. I mean, all the cool, interesting things that make wine appealing to people that are into it. Yeah. Hopefully, I feel like Australia is on the right track and hopefully with more great wines like this, I will highlight them every day when the wine's this good. Why don't you kind of go over a little bit about this Chardonnay? You know, so the people kind of have an idea what it's like. Yeah. So this is a Chardonnay from a relatively cool area. And what happens in cooler areas are a couple of things. One is you generally retain a good level of acidity. So the wines have a brightness, they're fresh, they're clean, they're real lively on the palate. The alcohol levels oftentimes are going to be more moderate. This one's 12 and a half, which in today's wine world is actually quite low. This is not a wine that gets a massive amount of oak. So what you're getting is the clarity, the purity, that precision that reflects back to a sense of place. Yeah. So if you're, you know, because you're a master of wine, you know, like blind tasting, you know, like you guys are almost like the Jedis of the wine world, you know, blind tasting is how you guys, you know, move the force or whatever. So if you're... On a good day. Yeah, okay. On a good day. If you're blind tasting this, what do you think, what you would do? I think Chardonnay is pretty clear. Yeah, I think Chardonnay is pretty clear. And think of Chardonnay, it's like a little bit of like the chicken breast of the wine world. Right, right. Pretty neutral. You can do all kinds of things. You can have versions that'll be primary fruit, crisp, fresh, clean, bright. Yeah. You can get those big fat butter bombs that are real weighty and broad on the palate. So you can pull a lot of different levers as a winemaker. Yeah. The thing with this that I think really says Chardonnay is you get a bit of that green apple character, which is quite typical. You get some citrus. You can find that in a lot of other grape varieties. Sure. But there's a lot of precision. There's weight and it carries through to the back palate. Yeah. So it's not something where when you taste it, swallow it, it's gone. Yeah. You know, it's got this long. Yeah. It's long, but there's breath, there's weight, there's range. And even though the alcohol level on it is not very high, it's got presence on your palate. Yeah. It's pretty acid driven. Look, most of our wine nerds, winos, we're acid freaks. And so I will admit, I'm not sure how crowd pleasing this style is. But I think if you are somebody who loves burgundy and you're sick and tired of paying like hundreds of dollars for it, and you love your Chablis or whatever, you should give this. This is by far B-Y-F-A-R-R. And Irrawara is their sort of sister brand. But anyways. This has a bit of that Chablis character too. A lot of precision and vibrancy on the palate. Right. Let's go into the next bottle that Bob brought. And I'm glad you didn't blind taste me on this guy because there's no way in hell that I would have gotten this. Let me get this. So why don't you tell everybody what this is? 2021 Riveaux Guasso Sauvignon Saint Prix. Sells for about $20. Okay. So before I came by today, I wanted to pick up a bottle and something a little different. And what we have is a, it's a Sauvignon Saint Prix. And you think, well, what is that? It's part of Burgundy. It's a Burgundy Sauvignon Blanc. It's the only appellation in Burgundy in which Sauvignon Blanc is grown. It's an appellation that's only been around, I think since something like that, about 20 years ago. And this is the Northern part of Burgundy. So you have this stretch of land that runs from South to North. Right. And there is a big gap as you get to the North. And as you get further North, what you'll find is areas like Chablis. This is close to Chablis. This is not too far from Champagne. Oh, wow. And to the West would be Loire. What you think of Loire? Yeah, a lot of Sauvignon Blanc. Yeah, yeah. So this is, I've never had a Sauvignon Blanc from Saint Prix. Definitely not from Burgundy. And for me on the nose, I pick up a lot of, quite a bit of tropical fruit on there. You know, I get a little bit of a guava on there. That's actually quite interesting. The alcohol on this, it's not very high. It shows 12.5. You know, there's some leeway in that. I feel like they always say 12.5. Yeah, yeah. But in some ways... It's like six feet. Everybody's six feet tall. Everybody's 12.5. You never see somebody who's like 5'11". Everybody's six feet. I'm not. I'm 5'10". I'm 5'10 on a really good day. Yeah. But the acid is there. So definitely, you know, on the tongue, there's definitely a little bit of tension from the acid. So, and that's what you're going to find oftentimes with cool climate Sauvignon Blanc. Elevated acidity, bright, fresh. You get that vibrancy. You don't get a lot of that pyrazine thing going on. Yeah. Which is, you know, sometimes it's like bell pepper, capsicum. Sometimes a little jalapeno. That's a whole different... That's a whole different word? Oh, okay. That's a whole different... Okay. Yeah. But I know what you're saying. But sometimes it'll have a little jalapeno character to it. Sometimes a little asparagus. Yeah. And look... I don't get that quite much here. No. Yeah, yeah. Dribs and drabs of that can actually be kind of a cool contribution to the wine. Sure. Cap Franc has that as well. Cap Franc, Cap Sauv, Merlot, you know, there's a whole family of grape varieties that sometimes can show that. Yeah. A little bit of it can be a really good thing. I agree, yeah. Too much of it, and it's like down the drain it goes. It's about balance, right? You never want anything to be too dominant, but... No, this is... Thank you for bringing this. I never had a St. Brie, and this is very, very cool. So, Bob, I think people want to hear about your opinion about a lot of things. So we're just going to go right into it. And since we're drinking a Chardonnay and we're drinking something for Burgundy, let's just go right into Burgundy. And here, I got... Guys, I did my homework. I'm prepared, okay? This is the first time I'm prepared. I'm a little nervous, but go. Okay. Bob doesn't know what I'm going to ask him. He has a little bit of idea that potential areas will cover, but he has not seen these questions ahead of time. So here we go. Burgundy wines. People say they're pretty prestigious. Is it time to call them overpriced and overhyped now? Is it time? Is it time to say that they're overpriced? Oh, you could have said that many, many decades ago. Many, many decades ago? Sure. Wow. Because back in the 90s, when you were in retail, they were pretty affordable, were they not? Well, they were, but everything is relative. Yeah, that's true. Okay. But here's the thing with Burgundy. Yeah. It's a very small, defined space. Right. So it's high prestige, high demand. It's one of those iconic places. There's always going to be people looking for it. Yeah. So while most of the wine world, you look at supply and demand, most of the wine world, in general, there's too much wine. Sure. Okay. Yeah. With Burgundy, that's not the case. Right. So that's what's going to drive it. And then the French love hierarchy classification systems. Right, right. So you've got Grand Cru, Premier, Village level, and then you've got basic, you know, Bourgogne Blanc and Rouge. But most of that was set hundreds of years ago by the monks. But now with climate change, are things shifting? Is that still relevant, all the cruise sites? Yeah, I think in many cases, I think it is relevant. But you hit on something that is something that I think is going to be with us probably for the rest of our days. Okay. And that's climate change. All right. Climate change has modified the styles of some wines. Okay. And in places like Burgundy, yeah, sometimes you can find that. There's also some cooler vintages. It's a little bit like what you're finding in Bordeaux right now. The 21 vintage Bordeauxs are coming out. The 21 vintage Bordeauxs are kind of getting beat up in the press. Sure, yeah. To me, it's a classic style of Bordeaux. Like 2014, a little bit cooler. A little bit. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But, you know, it's a vintage that I think is actually quite classic. Right. But what's happened is the bar has moved. You know, we've become more accustomed to wines with more concentration and depth and weight and more alcohol and all these things. And gradually, that has become the norm. Yeah. That wasn't the case decades ago. So that's actually one of my questions. You know, what do you think is leading to that style? Is it the 100 point system? And because, you know, Robert Parker, I've never met a guy, but from everybody I talked to, Robert Parker is actually a very good critic. He kind of does it right. But he has a very sort of unique style. He does like riper wines. And with the 100 point system, you know, in the 90s and the 2000s, is that why, you know, the wine styles are changing? Or is that the climate? Or is it just consumer taste? Which one is it? I think there's a lot of moving pieces here. So first off with Parker, Parker's now retired. I used Parker as a reference point like crazy for years. Yeah. And I'm going back to the early days when I was first getting into wine. You weren't, you didn't look up things online. You had a book that was like a doorstop. Okay. And Parker put these things out on a regular basis. Parker came on the scene. The thing that really catapulted him was the 82 vintage from Bordeaux. Yeah. Okay. Great vintage, classic year, but it was a warm vintage, wines with high pH, big extract, kind of fat boy sort of wines. Yeah. He played that up. Okay. And I think it was just the perfect storm, right message, right time. Okay. But it was a way to communicate the quality, even though my contention is the score is nice. Yeah. It means nothing without the commentary. Oh, okay. So are you kind of taking a little bit jab at these, you know, 95 plus with one sentence type of a wind down that we see a lot, a lot of these days. I'm not going to mention the name, but you guys know who I'm talking about. I think if you're not reading the commentary, you're just not getting the full picture. And it's great to have the score because, you know, if something gets a 95. Yeah. We equate that to, you know, days back in school, it was quick, simple. It was precise. Sure. Well, this is not precise. Yeah. There's a degree of subjectivity and the commentary that supports the score is what it's all about. I mean, I have no idea if these wines that we're tasting were reviewed anywhere. Probably not. I'm not sure about an Irohara, but yeah, I don't. But my point would be if the score were very high on the Aussie, for instance. Okay. There's also a degree of, is that a style that I really like? Sure. So if it is, hey, that 95 resonates and it means something. Right. If it's not your style. Yeah. It's the square peg round hole thing. It doesn't work. Yeah. Just the number itself doesn't really tell you anything, I think. But, you know, I think people may say this is the problem is that if you go to a place like Costco, Total Wine, you see numbers everywhere. And, you know, the people I come across with, they really believe that, you know, a 98.1 is better than a 96.1, even though that's not the case at all. But think about what you just said. If you're in a Costco and you're wine shopping. Yeah. You're not in there for an hour looking at wine generally. You're there to make a decision. And usually the decision is, okay, I'm thinking of a red, a white. Here's a basic price point that I want to hit. Oh, I happen to like the label. You know, I mean, that actually weighs in. The label matters a lot. Yeah. And then the other is, oh, someone, some critic. It may be some nameless, faceless person. And maybe it's someone who, you know, and trust. Right. But somebody who you feel is like an authority. Yeah. Gave it a thumbs up. Sure. Okay. That gives me some security, confidence. I'm in, I'm buying it. All right. So Bob, I'm going to ask you a question. Do you think the wine world is better with the 100 point system or without a 100 point system, not from us wine nerds necessarily, but from the general consumer? Would the wine world would be a better place if the 100 point system never happened, if Robert Parker never happened? Oh man. I think in general, it provides more benefit than not. So it's still net positive. I think it is because it helps people to feel more confident, secure. And I think it draws people to wine with a higher level of confidence. I agree with that. So wine is like a crazy fragmented business. Millions of brands. I don't care how much you know about wine. There's always going to be something new, different that you don't know. You haven't experienced. That score is a reference point. Yeah. But keep in mind that reference point is like a snapshot in time because the wine will change. It'll evolve. Yeah. So, you know, what does that mean? If I'm going to keep this wine for some years, that number may move a bit. Yeah, but net, net, net, net. I think it's a plus. Yeah. So let's talk about, let's move on to, you know, the next area, I guess. Well, that wasn't so bad so far. It wasn't so bad. I mean, I should go a little. So let's talk about, you know, some terms that gets used a lot in the wine world. Terroir. You know, to me, this is one of those things that it gets mentioned over and over a sense of place, but there's a French word. But first of all, before we go there, does terroir include the winemaker in your book? Yes, it does. What does terroir not include? Well, I think terroir includes anything that impacts what's happening in the vineyard. So if that winemaker, in some cases, small producers, the winemaker may also be who's tending the vineyard. But the terroir is essentially the total growing environment for that vine. Okay. And that could be things with, it's going to have to do with climate, precipitation, aspect, altitude, soil structure. You know, when it rains, is it volcanic soil where it just runs through? You know, there's a whole lot of factors here. Okay. And so I think with terroir, you have the complete growing environment, but what it's turned into for many, and I think the French are really front and center on this. Sure. It's used as a way to defend what they produce. Ah, I see what you're saying. So we go back to Burgundy or we talk about Bordeaux, their claim would be, and I agree with this, but their claim would be, this cannot be replicated anywhere. Therefore, this expression of Pinot Noir is unique to this place. Ah, the French are the best at marketing. I don't think there's ever been a people that are better at marketing than the French, but you're right. You know, I think the terroir of Champagne, the terroir of Burgundy, the terroir of Bordeaux makes them irreplaceable. Yes. So you can have someone who's growing Cabernet, you know, in loads of places all around the world, and the French could come back and say, well, but nothing would ever be like what we have on the left bank. Yeah. And, you know, part of the equation, you may say, well, left bank, the wines are not 100% Cabernet. Maybe there is a little Merlot, Cap Franc, Nelbec, whatever. Yeah. But the fact is, they'll tie back to the uniqueness of the place. Okay. And they tie that back to some food products as well. It's not just wine. Sure. Yeah. So let's talk about technology then. I mean, the question I have is technology, people have, I'm not a winemaker, obviously, but people have told me that one way to kind of feel, take the romance out of wine is to actually go into the cellar and see how a lot of these world famous wines are actually being made. Now, I don't know if that's true or not. This is, you know, this is, people are saying this as a way of saying that. What people? Well, I mean, you know, like the crazy people I talked to on Instagram, so probably not, yeah, you crazy folks out there, but it's the idea that technology plays a big part in a lot of these, you know, wineries. And, you know, you can talk about all the way down to certain additives, acidification and things like this. Now, my question for you is, at what point does terroir sort of, you know, disappear when you use technology? Does the technology actually enhance the terroir or does it take the terroir away? Okay. So if I could back up just a bit. Right. I would first say that the average wine quality today has never been higher. Right. Compared to decades ago, it's never been higher. You would have wines that were dirty and flawed. We're going to talk about natural wine later. So I think you probably would change your answer a little bit because I think we're going backwards a little bit. Oh, man. Okay. All right. Okay. Well, let's stick with this turn of thought first. Okay. But my point is wine quality overall today is better than what it's ever been. Right. A lot of that has to do with, you're going to call it, would you say technology? Sure. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to say more like the science. Okay. Of you pull different levers. Yeah. And it's going to impact the final wine in different ways. Okay. Okay? Yeah. Where this goes off the rails and it becomes a little almost like Frankenstein wine. Yeah. Is when technology is used to manipulate the wine by basically short cutting other processes. Okay. So for instance, we're talking about Pinot Noir. Okay. I want a Pinot Noir that's going to have more color because that's what people are looking for. Sure. Okay. Which is an absurd statement because that inherently is the antithesis of Pinot Noir. Right. But you can use long cold soaks and color extracting enzymes. And if you really want to go crazy, you can say, I'm going to blend a little bit of Syrah or whatever. Yeah. And it'll obliterate the wine. But I've achieved my goal of getting something that's got deeper color. Some people may see deeper color and say, well, I value that because that's going to have more depth, more weight, more richness. Sure. Well, you've twisted the technology piece to really destroy the wine. So there's no tell wine anymore. Well, no. So that would be the first. I think it can used used to extremes. It takes wine to a bad place. Okay. But then, but let's talk about, you know, the flip side, right? Where we started with, you know, biodynamic. And biodynamic was, you know, those of you, sorry, we got a helicopter. They're probably looking for you, Bob. I don't know. Yeah. I'm tethered. Yeah. So biodynamic, right? One thing is it always kind of perplexed me is I do like them. I don't know if this is mental or something about it. These wines do taste, you know, more, more pure, more transparent. But then I read about the procedures, about the moon phases, about the cow horns for poop and the certain days you have to bury them. I just feel like I can't be a scientist, you know, a scientific person. So, so tell me about the biodynamic. What's your opinion about the whole biodynamic thing? Okay. So first off, there are a good number of producers that are biodynamic that don't say much about it. Right. It's just the way they operate. Okay. There's different levels of eco-friendly practice. And the definitions can vary a little bit depending on where you're at, but you could look at something like sustainable, organic, biodynamic. One you're going to hear loads of now is going to be regenerative agriculture. Regenerative agriculture. Okay. Which is. How's that different from organic? Well, it's much more holistic. Okay. So organic viticulture focuses on a vineyard. Regenerative piece actually surrounds like the whole ecosystem. There's, there's vineyards like, like Chevelle Blanc. Yeah. One of the greatest Bordeaux's in the world. Okay. You know, Centimillion. Yeah. They use this and they have for a number of years. So it's not biodynamic. No. Okay. No, it's kind of like a twist off. Sure. But the biodynamic piece ties back to a guy by the name of Rudolf Steiner. Yeah. There's a little bit of controversy about his background. There's a lot of controversy. Right. Yeah. German around that time. Austrian. Oh, sorry. Well, maybe in that time, maybe that, maybe that was part of Germany. I don't know. Yeah, that's true. But, but anyway it had to do primarily with people who had gardens. Sure. That was really the main focus, but this guy had like his hand in all kinds of different projects. Yeah. But essentially it has to do with, as you mentioned, phases of the moon. Yeah. There are certain days where certain processes happen. I mean, there's a big dose of call it hocus pocus. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. We're on the same page there. It's hard for me to really drink based on root day, flower day, fruit day. I don't, I don't have, I don't have an app on my phone. Yeah. So, and you know, this thing. Some of you do. You know who you are. The thing about like, you know, having a horn like full of ---- and it's going to be buried and then we pull it up and then we make this, this spray and things. Right. Okay. All of that, I go, eh. Yeah. But I'll tell you this. I have been in a number of vineyards where they've done experiments where they've had biodynamic next to non biodynamic. Okay. For an extended period of time. Right. And when you look at the vineyards. Yeah. The biodynamic looks healthier. Yeah. Okay. Now why, I don't know, but what I'll say is this, those who use biodynamic. Yeah. And many, many top producers will. Yeah. But it, what it appears to me is they are all for a focus in the vineyard. Okay. So they're like, you know, anal about what's happening in the vineyard. Sure. And my feeling is, and again, you know, if you've got a different opinion, please feel free to voice it. Yeah. Oh, they will. Bob, you know, my followers are crazy people. They will definitely, they will give their honest opinion for sure. So I think of biodynamic more as a preventative versus a curative. Okay. So it's a little bit more like, okay, our intention is to keep the vineyard in balance, to keep it healthy, to make sure there's a diverse ecosystem. So we have predatory insects that take care of the problems and this sort of thing. Yeah. But when things go haywire in an extreme vintage, okay. It rains like hell and we've got problems with rot or whatever it might be. Yes. Now you have problems. I see. Okay. I don't look at it as something that can cure a problem as effectively as it is to prevent. Yeah. So like everything, when you become too dogmatic, you get into some issues and on that, that's my lead into natural wine. Now, everything you said about biodynamic to me sounds a lot about the vineyard. Now, natural wine for you, is that in the vineyard or is that in the winemaking? Yeah. Natural wine. First off, natural wine is not something new. It's not something new. It's something newly popular. Okay. And I'll use an example of Petnat. Okay. Yeah. The original ancestral method is sparkling wine. And this is essentially a method where fermentation is stopped before it's complete. So there's not a second fermentation. It's that initial fermentation that hasn't completed. Yeah. And one of the byproducts of that is some CO2. It's going to give you the spreads. Right. Okay. That type of wine, when it's produced in today's world, okay, and it's hugely popular now. Sure. But it's an old school method that's come back. Yeah. That essentially is a wine that changes with time. If you want to do a crazy experiment. Okay. Get a Petnat. Buy three bottles of Petnat. Yeah. And do something that is unfiltered. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So you've got that creamy sludge on the bottom. Oh, yeah. Crystals. They're a little like solids floating on the bottom. Yeah, yeah. And it's a little bit like if you bought like a wheat beer. Okay. It's kind of that kind of thing, but it's cloudy. Yes. Drink one today. Drink one in six months. Drink one six months later. All different wines, I'm sure. Because it's constantly evolving. Sure. Okay. So with natural wines, first off, it's not a defined term. Right. Okay. So it kind of means different things to different people. What does it mean to you? What do you feel like it deserves? First of all, my feeling about natural wine is what is so natural about natural wine? Because does Mother Nature actually want to make wine? I feel like Mother Nature, if you let it do it, it would probably make vinegar. I don't understand what's so natural about natural wine. I mean, there's plenty of examples where bears will go after certain types of berries that are overripe. Oh, okay. You know, because it got a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So, you know. So Mother Nature does make some wine, you're saying? In kind of like a half-assed kind of way. But the thing is with natural wine, I think for people that are more glasses half full sort of people. Okay. They're thinking of natural wine as being, first off, it's tied to the vineyard. It's organic. It has some biodynamic. It has some of that. It may and it may not. Okay. It may or may not. It depends on. Which will surprise a lot of people, right? Because when you hear the word natural wine, you assume it's organic. You assume the vineyard is biodynamic. But it's more about the winemaking than the vineyard. Well, even in the winemaking. Okay. In the winemaking, wine can develop all kinds of off-characters, wacky, funky things that are not appealing. You know, if there is a microbial issue, all of a sudden you go, you know what? This smells a little like ethyl acetate. It's kind of like, you know, nail polish remover. Sure, yeah. I mean, there's nasty things that can happen. Yeah. Okay. So the natural side of it, this wine kind of follows the path that it's going to follow. Yeah. Okay. Well, sometimes it can be a good result. Sometimes it might be kind of funky, interesting. I don't know if it's that good. Right. And sometimes it's like, this is god awful. But if you're one of these dogmatic natural wine people, you will just let nature take its course. So if the wine is mousy, well, it's terroir, I guess. I mean, how much of that concerns you? Right now, in the wine, at least on Instagram, it's very much divided. It's like the Republicans versus the Democrats. You're probably even worse than that. And there are people who absolutely love natural wine. Every time Uncle Frank makes a meme about natural wine, all of them come out. I just feel like it's one of the most divisive things. Now, for me, I really want to hear your opinion about this, right? Do you think, overall, the trend of natural wine is good or bad for the future of wine in general? Do you have any concerns? I think it's good for a niche. I think there are, well, I'm saying this quite confidently, there are people that enjoy it, they're into it, they value it, and they're fans. I also think you have people that look at it as, this is dirty winemaking. This is wine that's unpredictable. I'm paying a premium for something that is, you know, you've got an analogist, someone who is skilled at making a wine that has clarity of fruit and brightness and all this. So it depends on what you value. For me, personally, I've had some natural wines that I think are really interesting and they're fun. Most of the wines that I've had that are called natural, to me, I'm like, you know, these are a little Debbie Downer. They're, I find, off-characters. And maybe what I'm doing is, I'm analyzing it too much. Sure, yeah, sure. It's funny because my wife, she's, you know, I love her. She's got great palate. She kind of just came out of the closet as a real natural wine lover. And for her, it's about, it's all the cliche. It's all the tropes that you hear. You know, it doesn't give me a headache. I feel it's very comfortable in my body and other things. And to a degree, I kind of agree. But at the same time, I do feel like we need to be honest, right? If we're drinking a wine and it clearly is mousy. And I think people should be educated on these different flaws. High ass, you know, high VA, volatile acidity, high bread or whatnot. Oxidized or whatever. People should be educated on these things. I think at some point you can say like, Hey, this makes me feel great. I don't have a headache, but we should also kind of not go overboard because right now natural wine feels like the second coming of Jesus is almost kind of like, Oh, the wine is so ruined. Natural wine is here to save the day. And I have a very, very mixed feelings about that. So the other thing, there's variables that sometime come into play that you're not going to know as a consumer. Okay. So if you have a natural wine that's produced at the winery, you taste it there and think, God, this is wonderful. This is the coolest thing. Yeah. Okay. That wine is sold in some other places. Right. Okay. It sits in a warehouse. It sits in a truck. It sits on a shelf somewhere in a store. And it gets a little bit warm. Yeah. All of a sudden something's off to the right. Because it's no sulfur or very, very little amount of sulfur, which is just a, it's a stabilizing agent. Essentially, you take that away. You know, one of the person that I, you know, I'll work with, you know, when I was in a wine industry briefly, Kyle Myers, he's like, you know, when you put out the natural wine without sulfur is basically, you know, just shoot out the people like, you know, naked and afraid. There's no protection to any of these things. It's like, God help them. If you get into one container, that's over 90 degrees. Okay. Well, too bad. You know, they're naked and they're afraid. How do you, do you agree with that? Naked and afraid. That's good. Yeah. Look, I think with, with natural wine, if you're a fan, you're going to be a fan. Yeah. Right. You know, it, it, it has people who, who love it, follow it. And for wine in general, I think that's a good thing. So you think that's, it's a good thing to kind of bring more interest because the younger people, the Gen X, the millennials love natural wine. Some of the most viral videos, some of the, the, you know, the highest followers here are all natural wine people. The younger crowd loves natural wine. Yeah. And you think that as soon as it brings people in, you feel like that could be a positive. Of course. I mean, look, I think with wine, if you're, if you're getting in the wine and you're drinking entry-level grocery store wine. Yeah. Oh, this is, then drink natural wine. Right. But if you're enjoying that, if you're buying a bottle of Sutter Home, you take it home and go, I love it. What's the, hey, you're getting satisfaction out of it. That's all it matters. Well, I mean, this is actually, I should have done this in the beginning of the video, but one thing I love about your YouTube channel is that, you know, you're a master of wine, which is very, you know, By the way, my glass is empty. Oh, no problem. You know, on YouTube, you know, you're a master of wine, but you, you give people a lot of recommendations to Costco, Trader Joe's, and you are almost the sort of, sort of the most, you know, atypical master of wine, you know, and I actually love that about, you know, your content because the 90% of people I run out across, they don't even know what the word Taiwan means, nor do they care. They just want to know like, hey, I got 30 bucks. I got 25 bucks. I want to buy some wine. What can I do so I don't screw it up? And, and I, and I love that, you know, you from, you know, your master of wine level is very willing to not talk down to them, but actually help them out, which I think is actually quite rare in today's world. Well, cool. Thank you for that. But here's the thing. Gotta follow his YouTube. I'll put it, I'll put his YouTube channel in the link. It's a plug. Okay. Cool. They call it a plug. You know, we gotta, we gotta be cool. The kids call it a plug. So, so with that, with that, I'll say with, with wine, um, it's not like a commodity. It's not like you're going out and you're buying like, you know, toilet paper or a head of cabbage or whatever. Okay. It's tied to something that you're going to enjoy. It's tied to some, something you're going to celebrate, something you're going to have during some off time where you, you know, you're going to try it. It's part of enjoyment. Sure. And the thing is, if, if I can help in the smallest way to make it, uh, something where someone feels more confident, more secure in what they're buying, the thing that is the biggest put off in wine is prestigious or, uh, pretentious. Yeah. Sort of. Yeah. It's the most ridiculous thing. I know something that you don't. Right. So that's a put down on you. And honestly, I feel like those people don't truly love the wine because, uh, one thing I, I, you know, hopefully it's an ego stroke. Yeah. I mean, hopefully you guys, you know, follow me or see this in me is that, you know, I, I really, truly love wine. And I think wine is, uh, is not really driven by the prestige. And I think it's such a wonderful product. And I, I love it. The more people get into it, feeling confident, right. Feeling confident and, you know, just getting the right advice. So I love it. So I'll tell you, for me, the thing that was the aha moment was one, this is going back decades ago now was there was a book that I had that was given to me and I had looked at this and I thought, okay, wine is about culture, religion, politics, business, the culinary aspect. Yeah. There's all of these things. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, the history of it is. Yeah. Geography history is everything. You know, there's a science piece to it. And even though technology is, is really front and center in today's wine world. Yeah. There's still at times a little bit of mystique. Oh, it's like, how did that wine convey that character? Sure. Yeah. So that to me, the romance is still there. You cannot take romance out of wine completely. It doesn't matter how much science. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. So, so I think all of that is, is really a cool thing, but it just hit me. You asked a question at the very beginning. Sure. I didn't answer it. Okay. And that was about Australian wine. Uh-huh. Okay. So it had it today. Yeah. In these, in the States, it cratered. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, like there has been times in today's world, in the States, it, it's really tough to sell Australian wine. Oh yeah, for sure. Okay. In Australia, of course, that's what they drank. Yeah. You know, it's like 90% of what they drank. Yeah. But in some of the Southeast Asian countries. Yeah. Vietnam. China. Well, China had a, had a, some. Politics stuff. Which is now ending. Oh, good. So it's going to re-enter. Good. But a country like Malaysia, for instance. Okay. Great. Cool wine culture there. Wow. Australian wine is everywhere. Sure. It's, it's like wines like this. Yeah. Nitchy, cool, good story, sense of place. Love it. All the fun things. Yeah. Love it. All right. Bob, thank you very much for, I mean, I had a blast. It was, it was great. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. You know, if, if, if enough of you like this, if, you know, you guys give it a million likes, maybe we'll do a part two. That's what they say. The cool kids say that on YouTube. I love it. You know, and if you've got things to say where you want to bash me, go for it. I love that as well. All right. Bring it on guys. All right. That's it. Until next time. Cheers, wino. Bye.