Mark Zuckerberg at Startup School 2013

You know I came out here earlier, and they didn't clap as loud, so it's pretty obvious why they were clapping loud this time That was for you All right, I don't have any songs for you I Just came in a few minutes ago, and Jack was here playing a song what's going on in here. It's um He can pull that off. I can't Maybe next year So I wanted I know it's probably hard to remember what it was like way way back in the beginnings of Facebook But that's where these guys are in the beginnings, so I'm gonna ask you questions about the early years, right? Which also have the advantage that you don't have to worry about saying bad things as a public company So we're just talking about ancient history, right? Um so I wonder if you remember when you sat down to write Facebook during that reading period What was the first thing you wrote like when you when you had enough code to test something to see if it worked? What was it? What did you test? I? don't remember then what that would the first thing was that I wrote but it actually The first code for Facebook started way before then right so I like probably a lot of you guys I Just built a lot of stuff for myself all throughout my childhood I built games that I wanted to play I built a music player that I wanted I tried to build stuff that that I really wanted for it for myself right and I was I was young I wasn't building very high quality stuff It was just stuff that that I wanted not not for anyone else and then when I got to college I started wanting to build products that Would let me get insight into the community around me and let me connect with the people around me and That had the property that you can't actually just build something that only you use if you want to be able to connect with people Around you you have to start building software that other people are going to use as well So I actually mean like facemash. Oh well before that. You know it's actually one of the That's that stupid movie makes everyone think that facemash was like was this critical thing but But actually a lot earlier than that of my sophomore year one of the first things that I built that was kind of like this Was actually called course match. I don't think we've talked about this that much and I know startup schools It was um I was trying to figure out what classes. I wanted to take my sophomore fall and I wanted to see what other people who had taken the CS classes that I'd taken wanted to take and What my friends were planning on taking and what they'd taken in the past, but there was no database like that That was out there, so I thought all right well How can I do this so I went and I? wrote this little script that scraped the course catalog and let people put in what classes they wanted and I called it the course graph And I mean that was actually the first time yeah I mean it was it was actually I made the mistake of running it running the website from a laptop in my dorm room and The my desk was right next to the bathroom when there was like constantly steam pouring out of that from people showering So the laptop actually fried and I lost that one after like a few weeks of it running But that was the first time that I had Ever really set up a production. You know a patchy server or my sequel Server or a lot of that stuff, and then you know a lot of those those things You know then when I went on to build later stuff I had those lessons And I knew that I could set those things up Quickly so those were just building blocks on top of which to build future things did people put their classes in it Did you use it? Oh? Yeah? Yeah? No, it was like a thousand or two thousand people out of the it was like six thousand people at Harvard Yeah, yeah, so I mean it worked fine. I mean it it was actually really interesting people spent so much time just clicking through the links of People to see what classes they were in and then in the classes they clicked on people who are the roster of the the people It was just it was I thought it was gonna be interesting and I wanted to solve this problem But it was actually just way more compelling and you know part of my theory at the time was You know I looked at all the other Types of content that were out there on the internet, right? It's like you could search for any music or news or content or reference material that you wanted But part of my theory at the time was that people were really missing from the internet right and there were no services like that And you know that's why I built it some of these services that went in that direction But I still think people are largely missing from a lot of the software that we build which is why I'm focused on building this Development platform today as part of Facebook's that way the next generation of software that the industry builds can just be more human So every app that people build has this sort of additional dimension now where you can sort of see what other people are doing to We're trying to go in that direction So you knew by the time you started Facebook that if you made some website You could get thousands of people to show up to it Well, I it was I didn't have a choice I knew that if I wanted to do this that I had to build something that I could that would get people to use it I didn't know if I could actually do that So, but it must have been a little bit surprising that thousands of people showed up Right, if people would show up for something that wasn't even intended to draw thousands It was probably do it again, right? Well, yeah, and then I did a few more and I was really focused on this idea of Channeling a community is energy to build some kind of shared asset whether it's you know, the course graph or You know ultimately Facebook was a good example of this I mean one of my favorite stories from from college that I actually I think I've told at startup school before is I Built the first version of Facebook during reading period which is basically this two or three week period that Harvard I don't know if they still give this but they don't yeah, I think they stopped shocking Well, you know both Microsoft and Facebook started during reading. Yeah, so Harvard likes to canceling things that work. Yeah But So basically, it's this period during January before your finals where you can Ostensibly study for classes for your finals and and I took that period to write the first version of Facebook I don't think I'd written any code for that project directly Until really January and then by the end of January is basically done with it But then one day I woke up a couple of days before this Final for this class that was taken called the Rome of Augustus. It was this Lit in arts class and the class was all about learning the historical significance of a bunch of pieces of art that were there and for the final they were just gonna show some pieces of art from the class and You had to write an essay on the significance of them and I hadn't really gone to class all term I just like programmed and then during reading period when I should have been learning this I programmed and So I was pretty screwed, right? I mean, there's no way that I was gonna cover all this material So I just went to the course website downloaded all the images and made a little website that basically would randomly show in the images and Would let you contribute your notes of what you thought was reasonable or what was important about that photo your notes Taken by going to class. What's up? Yeah that other people learn through hard work and Then I sent this out to the course email list Okay, guys I built a study tool and Within an hour the whole thing was just populated with all the information that we needed to take the class To take the final so I think I did pretty well in the final. I don't remember the exact grade but Tell us about some real-world system. You have hacked to your advantage What's up? That's an answer. That's a question on the YC application form We actually ask for people having done a trick like that. Um, that would get our attention Incidentally if you ever want to do YC Well, it's funny, you know the first couple times I met mark after all this time evaluating startup founders I can't turn it off So I'm like the first couple times I met mark there would be this like process side process running in my head saying Accept him accepting him say and I would have to say stop it. It's too late Well now we get to work together on other things All right, no, I love it I love it so One of the things I we talked about last year was how when you first launched Facebook the first Other colleges you expanded to were ones that had competing services So I didn't ask you at the time, but I wonder now. Why did you win? What was it that Facebook had that the competing services didn't I? Think it was just this focus on real identity and the connections between people but it goes back to this theme where before Facebook on the internet there were you could find a lot of information about a lot of different types of content But the thing that we as people care the most about which is other people right it around us I mean our brains are just wired that way It wasn't there and if you think about it, the reason is that You know that that information about people isn't just out there on the internet to be indexed by some search engine, right? You can't just send a web crawler around and learn what's going on with with people You have to build tools that give people the the power to share that that content themselves and And that stuff didn't exist and if you go back You know most of the way that people interacted online was anonymous, right? And the idea at the time was that was pretty scary to put your your name In real identity online without the right privacy controls and without kind of the right community infrastructure so I think that that's a lot of what we built was a framework where people would be comfortable sharing in that way and Were people able to share less on these competing services there were three universities you mentioned yeah, I mean Stanford Yale in Columbia Yeah, they each had different things. I think some of them were just they gave people less ways to express content about themselves None of them. I think had a concept of connections, right? So one of the things that if you think about you can friend people Yeah And if you think about friending today and one of the reasons why it's important is because you get the person's content in in your News feed right and there was no news feedback then right so a lot of the reason that that friending was was good It was just because you could put someone on your profile and say that you were connected to them So just like people were more fascinated than intuitively It seemed like they should have been about looking and clicking through the classes that people were taking a lot of people also just wanted To see who other people knew there was nothing like that that existed. So you had friending from the beginning. Oh, yeah That was a really critical. So the missing real identity and connections they had the nodes of the social graph, but not the arcs Well, there's that and I think there's less emphasis on real identity in the community So some of these communities, you know, you just like you you made it so that people could sign up with a pseudonym Which is it's fine I mean, I think that there are lots of services that are good with pseudonyms But if you're talking about mapping out a real a real community then then you want that. Why do you have its drawbacks? Have you ever seen the comments on hacker news? I Think if people were talking under their own names, they might be a bit more civilized Sometimes it's actually it goes both ways though, right? I mean a lot of the Advantage of that is that people can be very critical, right? It's if you're always talking into your real name it there's often a social penalty for being critical. So It is more civilized I think but that may not always be the most productive thing. Hmm. So you want to balance of these things? At the moment I envy you So well, we can talk after this about getting home. Oh my god. I know what you're about to say. Yes The devil, you know or the devil you don't Okay, the key is don't only use Facebook connection, right? It's some people make I can use Facebook and Twitter Well, yeah or Facebook and email or whatever whatever else you want Twitter's fine, too. I mean it's But you want to use to you want to all right now this is a hypothetical question Um, so if you hadn't started Facebook, like for example, if if Harvard had already canceled reading period And you were actually kicked me out right or they kicked you out for a face mask smash You know you asked this question before about would I have started Facebook without face mask? about the only thing that I got from face mash was I met my wife because of it because my Harvard said that they were gonna kick me out and My friends really thought that they were gonna kick me out So they planned this going away party for me and I actually met my wife at that party So they didn't even wait for the ad board to decide before they had the going away party. They were so sure Yeah, my friends were just like completely positive that I was gonna get kicked out of school Actually, you know not only that but my family was pretty confident that I was gonna either get kicked out or drop out of school Too before I started college my little sister bet me that she would finish college before me And my mom later told me that she always knew I was gonna leave college. I was like, oh, thanks mom So here's my hypothetical question if you hadn't started Facebook There would probably be something like Facebook now Yeah, would it have would it have to have been something that started out as a network for college students? Was that thermal so powerful that the winner would have had to be one of these college things or could? Myspace have sort of morphed and grown and you know become it. Oh, yeah I don't think it had to be a college thing, you know one of my earliest memories from Facebook was I I used to get pizza almost every night with one of my friends who I did my computer science problem sets with and We used to talk about technology and where we saw the world going and I remember one of our conversations right after I launched Facebook Was about how I was really excited to offer this service for our community But that one day clearly Someone was gonna build this for the world, right? And it hadn't even crossed my mind that maybe we would be the ones to do it because yeah from my perspective It's like alright, we're just college students What do we know about building software that hundreds of millions of people use, you know? clearly this is gonna be something that you know, Microsoft or Google or Yahoo or someone like that who builds these services that the tons of people use Is gonna do it and It was when was the point when you realized you were gonna do it Like how many how many schools did you have before you realize this is probably it probably later on When we went outside of college But even then up to the point where you had hundreds of colleges You still thought some big company was gonna come along and do this better Well, not necessarily the college part, but I didn't know that we were gonna be the people building the community to kind of connect everyone, right so It's um in retrospect though, it was pretty obvious. No, no, not at all you know, I actually I spent a bunch of time analyzing and reflecting on why it was that we were even able to do it because all Like all reasons suggest that we shouldn't have been able to do it right because all these other companies had way more engineering power and and and Servers and time and money and all the stuff and I actually think that this is a pretty Instructive thing for anything that you want to go do because This is the same property is gonna be true for anything that you guys start is that someone else is gonna have more resources and be Able to do it The reason why I think we actually ended up being the ones doing it is because we just cared way more about it than everyone else, right so there were always projects at some of these other companies that were these hobbies, but We always thought that it was this really important thing and really just like felt in our gut and our heart that we wanted to Do it and you know early on there were always these skeptics saying that oh, this can't be a business We didn't actually care that much about it being a business early on But a lot of the reason why bigger companies didn't invest in it was because it wasn't clear that there was a model that would Work for it. It seemed like a bad idea Yeah And I actually think that that's true for a lot of the best ideas Where it is that it's not that someone else can't do it They actually can and the odds are stacked against you but I think often that belief and the fact that you just care so much about what you're doing is The only thing that kind of drives you to do it and you know to be honest that kind of drives me to this day I mean one of the big Emphasis points for the company right now is Internet org and you know for a while we had this rallying cry of can we connect a billion people? And you know when we start talking about that we thought that was crazy It was way bigger than any service in in the world that had been built and you know is Ten digits long right? It's like a you know, it just it felt crazy We'd never get to that But then the thing is as we started to actually get closer to that we took a step back and like all right Well, our mission isn't actually to get one in seven people in the world to be connected It's we want to connect everyone So it's um It's a big issue that only around a third of the people in the world have access to the internet and That's something that we think that we can do something about and similar to early Facebook We don't there's no business model around this. I mean all the people who have all the money in the world I mean, it's not necessarily a fair thing are already the people who are on Facebook, right? It's in the first, you know seventh of the world, but we just believe really strongly. It's like this is what we are here to do This is what our company cares about. I care about it. The team cares about it. Our culture cares about it So we're just gonna keep pushing on it And I actually think a lot of the reason why great stuff gets built is because it's kind of irrational at the time But so it kind of selects for the people who care the most about it doing it Do you think there's there's anything about you like a personal quality of yours besides sort of basic? Smartness and determination that made you well-suited to work on this this project. I Realized this requires some introspection Yeah, I actually think determination is probably the biggest piece, you know It's um, so many things go wrong when you're starting a company and often I think people ask, you know What mistakes should you avoid making and you know? my answer to that question is don't even bother trying to avoid mistakes because you're gonna make tons of mistakes right and the the Important thing is actually learning quickly from whatever mistakes you make and not giving up, right? And I mean there are things every single year of Facebook's existence that could have killed us or made it so that it just seemed like moving forward and making a lot of progress just seemed intractable, but you just kind of bounce back and you learn and Nothing is impossible. You just have to kind of keep running through the walls So the biggest mistake is the sort of meta mistake letting a mistake moralize you Hmm do you think Facebook? No Do you think Facebook had a rougher time like do you think it ran into more obstacles early on than typical startups? Because now you've known you know a lot of other people who've started startups and you've heard all the ghastly stories about what goes on Behind the scenes. Do you think it was more of a ---- show or less? or about normal Probably more yeah, and I mean why well part of the reason was because I knew nothing when I got started I mean you have to remember I was 19 years old when I started Facebook, right? So I mean probably looked at the same age or younger than than most of you guys I think you would be young for this and actually and um, I knew nothing nothing about business at all Right, and I didn't even think that I was starting a company. I actually remember when I first Came out here for the summer with Dustin because we wanted to learn from Silicon Valley companies I remember driving up the 101 and seeing all these great companies and thinking to myself Oh, wow, these are such amazing companies Maybe one day I'll start a company and I'd already started Facebook, right? And and it like hadn't occurred to me that that was actually, you know, so, um, how did you learn? How did you learn people around me, but there's so many mistakes that just come from not I Mean like I really knew so little at the time I mean like when Peter Thiel came in to invest one thing that he Demanded was that all of the founders be on vesting schedules and um, I didn't even know what a vesting schedule was I'd never heard of that, right? So I mean part of the the early conflict that I had with With Eduardo who's one of our founders who then left was he was at Harvard with us We kind of decided okay, if we started a company would divide the equity up this way We hadn't heard of vesting schedules and then he just balanced. He never moved out to California with us So, um, so Peter was like all you guys have to be on vesting schedules like oh ---- now right, so In but it's fine. I mean, it's like that mistake probably cost me billions of dollars, but it's fine. You just you You move forward and and you can't it doesn't matter right? I mean you just kind of keep pushing forward and And that's how it goes. Yeah How did you learn though? Like You you start out that's good you can do it Robert So you start out as a 19 year old, right and you have this website that just like going through the roof Ron was talking earlier about her very early on the graphs just were going up very steeply And you had to learn how to create this organization, you know, you have to learn how to be a manager That's the next phase after you raise money and you have something that's growing. How did you learn how to how to manage people? Well through a lot of mistakes, I mean, um, I Don't think anyone is like naturally good at hiring out of the box, right? It's if you have to learn in each role we probably went through multiple iterations before landing on a Balance of a person that made sense and in the problem is made even harder by the fact that you don't need the same thing At each stage, right? So it's a moving target as well But eventually hiring though, you have to somehow lead a group of people and get them all to work together. Yeah, it's very hard Yeah, that's what you do now, right? You don't program much probably right you spend all my time managing. Yeah Now you're a management expert. No, absolutely not. You must be right. That's yeah. Try telling that to my team But how did you learn it was there anyone who taught you or any book you just have to throw yourself in right So you have a really just trial and error six. So I have um, you know I've developed a few heuristics over time that I think are simple enough that the organization can internalize So in terms of hiring, you know, everyone says hire good people, right? No one wants to hire like a reasonable person You know, you want to hire like a really good person, but then the question is how do you like? What's the right heuristic for determining if someone's really good? So over time what I figured out was that the only actual way to let someone analyze whether someone was really good Was if they would work for that person So I don't think that needs to recurse too many levels down in the organization But I basically think that that's like a that's a really good heuristic, right? And and I I believe that I mean for if you look at my management team today I mean if we were in an alternate universe and I hadn't started the company it would be an honor to work for any of These people and I think if you if you build a company that has kind of those values rather than just saying Oh, I want to hire You know the best person I can find or whatever if you hold yourself to that standard Then you'll then I think you'll build a pretty strong company There are other things around management that you just kind of have to throw yourself into in different ways as well I used to be really terrified of public speaking. I'm to the point where When I did all hands, which at the time were like 10 or 15 people I had to sit down because I was so afraid and At the time a lot of people which is ironic because I'm still sitting but um, but not not because I'm afraid just because it's more comfortable and So what I did was um, I Basically, I threw myself into some of this stuff and you know a bunch of schools Invited me to come speak and what I did was I accepted some of those invitations Even though I had no real goal of doing that except for desensitizing myself and I went up to give a speech without having prepared anything and If you do that a few times you stop being afraid Really quickly and because I mean what's the worst thing that can happen? you know, I think a survey says that more Americans are afraid of public speaking than death and It's so, you know, you just throw yourself in you get over this stuff I remember the first talk you ever gave it gave it startup school And I think it was one of these the way you described that you went with no preparation, right? And you know, actually I can tell you what thank you. What's the worst thing that can happen? You can say something off the cuff that gets like taken by the press like a football and thrown around and gets you That's fine. I actually I actually did prepare for that one. I don't have that excuse but the fact that I'm It was really good. All that this practice did was desensitize me It didn't actually make me good at public speaking as this is this is proof of do you like managing people? You know if you work with people that you like then it's wonderful right, I'm because I one definition that I have for a Good team is a group of people that makes better decisions as a whole than would individually make as a sum of the parts and When you're I think most smart people like learning, right? And I mean that's like one of the thrills of starting a company right is you're just the learning curve can be so steep And if you can set up a team dynamic where you're constantly learning from the people around you then I mean, what's better, right? These are the people I wake up every morning and I want to I want to go learn from and work from is that one? Yeah and when building a team you want it to you want to think about the dynamics so that way you can maintain this property that The team makes better decisions as a group than any individual would hmm How when you first started like back in that house in Palo Alto you were a startup founder, right? So how I didn't know it yet. Well What was your mental model of a startup founder how where did it come from did it was it Bill Gates, you know Or Steve Jobs did it come from reading books or Peter Thiel or Sean Sean Parker? I mean, where did it come from? One of the things that was kind of interesting was there's this culture in Silicon Valley that kind of makes startups seem glamorous and I never really believed that right I never had a goal of starting a startup and My goal when I Realized that I had a company was to get it to be a good company as quickly as possible I didn't kind of get out of what you'd call the like risky startup phase where you are just like constantly about to die and Where you could get to a point where you can actually do some interesting things and make make a lot of more interesting bets and um So, I don't know. I never read a lot of the literature on this I mean, maybe if I had then I wouldn't made so many mistakes But so I don't know if like if learning for me is the right way to go on this But I mean, but it did I think your model must have come from somewhere though Even if it was even if you it was unintentional right? Like were you influenced by Peter Thiel or Sean? Well, yes, I was influenced by all these people once I met them I actually I hadn't really heard of Peter Thiel before I'm talking about like yeah, right Yeah, but I mean he was massively influential on my thinking right? I mean I like a lot of the the early lessons that I took on how to think about strategy came from Peter and Sean and I did pay a lot of attention when I was growing up to Microsoft I thought I mean I grew up, you know using you know Windows 3.1 and then Windows 95 and I just thought that those were like the most unbelievable things and Sense they are yeah, they were we really were awesome, right? Well, I I don't know if you you meant that positive positively But I did and and I thought you know building this ecosystem was really neat and that kind of inspired me right in the way That they built a platform. I kind of thought okay Well, maybe one day, you know that the tools that I'm building can be part of a broader ecosystem as well And I think that that had kind of gotten lost from the valley By the time that I got around to setting up Facebook as a company and Google and Apple to that point Hadn't really created platforms They went then went on to create much better platforms than anything that was created on desktop with their mobile operating systems But that was pretty influential. So what's that idea of one day making Facebook into a platform sort of implicit all along? Was it always something you were mulling over or was it something that occurred to you after you had all these? Well Turning Facebook into a platform was after that But the idea that there should be some social platform was pretty early on right so between you know course match and the room of Augustus thing and face mash and like all these things when I was at Harvard it kind of Became clear to me that a lot of the software that we use Should have people at the center of it, right and people want to learn about people That's like a really core thing in our psychology. So I thought that you know, whether there was central central social network kind of at the core of that or just like some kind of social libraries or API or something that there Needed to be something that made it so that was like a common framework that that everyone can use to develop Can you remember a particular strategic insight that you had early on and it's probably you know, this statute of limitations Competition is probably passed now There's probably stuff you can say about some insight that you had early on and you thought to yourself Ah, ha ha nobody else knows this except us, but we have this we have this great this great trick Well Peter Thiel was really focused on network effects and He had this model that I think is right For making decisions that as the complexity of the company grows every day you're gonna be faced with a hundred things that you could potentially go do and Your job is to pick the one thing that actually matters because out of those hundred things It's really only actually gonna be one or two things that actually matter and that was pretty Informative to me at the time because I had intuitively like I had a lot of Some self-direction intuitively, but as soon as I started getting all these people around me Who all had reasonable perspectives on things was very hard for me to balance that and Peter was always very useful for that We were focused. He was good at saying here's the one thing that matters like focus on the one thing that matter Well partially that and partially just the meta lesson of figure out the one thing that matters and do that But do you remember what the one thing that mattered like if someone asked everyone as quickly as possible Because I mean network effects were a massively important part of this one of the the story Connecting everyone as quickly as possible. You don't mean specifically getting more signups. You mean getting people to friend one another faster Yeah, well, how did you do that? Well, we built a lot of tools to enable people to do what they already wanted to right? You can't like push uphill on this stuff, right? it's um, it's um, we were solving a problem that people had and we just needed to remove as much friction as possible, but There was a pretty early You know funny sequence where there was actually this company in 2005 that got started That was called college Facebook. It was like an exact clone of us and it even had the same name, right? and Their strategy because we started at Harvard and then tried to branch out to Schools that we thought would have dense social connections with Harvard's we could build this network. Their goal was they wanted to start in Places that we weren't right so they started on the west coast and in the south when we started in the Northeast and they tried to build up this network of of different schools and and it was just this race for a while and eventually older Seattle yeah, and it's I mean and We just took this stuff really seriously and I remember Dustin just took it so personally, right? It's like anytime they'd launch at some school that we weren't at We had this concept that we actually still have at the company today called lockdown Which is whenever any other company gets ahead of us on something that we think is strategic to us Back then lockdown meant we literally did not leave the house until we had addressed the problem now It's a little looser of an interpretation Inside the company. We don't literally lock everyone inside the office but About as close to that as we can legally yet. So And you know now the funny thing is inside Facebook You know because we have a lot of different initiatives teams kind of do this themselves right in and just decide it's like alright There's like some competitor that has something that we Feel like we really need like we're going into lockdown to get this thing because we're not gonna You know let college Facebook get ahead of us So in retrospect, could you have completely ignored college Facebook and it wouldn't have made any difference. I don't know It's a good question Don't you think like you would have just eventually spread to those schools and build them. I mean in theory I think they didn't do a perfect job copying us, you know One of the things that's interesting is that there are some countries where? Folks have made such good clones of Facebook that it has been very hard for us to grow and Russia is the biggest example, right? So V Kentucky these guys are just like the International Olympiad computing Computing Olympiad champions and it's a small team and they like just did like an awesome job cloning Facebook and there are fewer content laws So they also have like illegal file downloads and all the stuff and like we just have not been able to beat them And um, and it's um, and maybe it's because of the illegal file downloads and it's so you should add file down We try not to break the law, but it's um the I mean we're growing fine, right? It's like linear growth and we're we're I think slowly making a lot of progress and I'm pretty sure we'll pass them eventually but it's been literally like Almost 10 years, right since we got started with Facebook and we still have not beaten them in Russia So it is possible that if the college Facebook folks had done better and had gone faster than maybe maybe maybe no No, but like they went the speed they did that wasn't affected by your lockdowns I'm just wondering like maybe those lockdowns were unnecessary as we always advise people basically just ignore competitors, right? I do think that it's definitely possible to over rotate on competitors, but one One caveat that I would say I think people tend to worry too much about strategic competitors who are doing something that's related But clones, I think actually end up being a pretty big nuisance, right? So there are like there are these whole companies now in Europe that like all they do is just clone companies that have been founded In the US and other places and try to bring them to Europe and have network effects and it's like a pain in the ass Right, and I don't think it's it so so I actually think you do want to internationalize and pay attention to that stuff Fairly early because those things are really annoying once they get lodged in Okay, I think we have one minute left so I'm going to ask you one more question It seems like the most successful founders are are sort of obsessed like they're a little bit They care a little bit too much about certain things, right? Like Steve Jobs cared a little bit too much about how perfect the edges of some polygon work, right? What is it that you care too much about? acting everyone No, seriously if you think about I mean it's like this aesthetic sense of the world that I have is that you can Communities of people can channel their energy to do great things and having connections between people is the infrastructure for the world to do that and You know And that's why at each step along the way when there was always all this uncertainty about you know Whether it would be profitable or whether it would make sense or be good or whatever to do these things We always were doing it because we just cared more and I mean to this day I mean you could you could say that that was a startup thing But it isn't because I'm now where we're here and we connect more than a billion people But I mean we're pouring tons of money and resources into connecting people who can't even afford internet access, right? So, I mean that's like there's no way that that's gonna be profitable in the near term or medium term But we're doing it because we think it's the right thing to do and over the long term I do think that there's something there and it's gonna be fundamentally important for the world and maybe we'll get rewarded Maybe not but we just really care. So it's a movement Facebook the company is sort of a subset of it Well All right, you guys I think we're done. Are we done? We done? All right. Thank you very much. All right, Mark Zuckerberg