The Cathy Newman Show with Ed Davey, Ian Hislop, Michael Gove and Ayesha Hazarika

Right now the ceasefire certainly holds, but we're going to be watching very, very closely. Iran is the clear aggressor, harassing civilian vessels, threatening mariners from every nation. We would have had an Iran with a nuclear weapon and maybe we wouldn't all be here right now. You can't let a bunch of lunatics have a nuclear weapon. Our message to Iran or to any other country that might seek to foment violence, hatred or division in society is that it will not be tolerated. Not so long ago, Donald Trump said war with Iran was over in the first hour. Well, guess what? More than nine weeks after it started, it's still going. That's about five weeks longer than he predicted. An eternity for anyone filling up at a petrol station, and that includes Americans. So is that why Trump is looking for surrender? They should wave the white flag of surrender. They should wave the white flag, but there's absolutely no sign they're going to. And there's now a chasm as wide as the Strait of Hormuz between what Trump's prepared to settle for now and what he vowed at the start of the war. Here's what the commander in chief said nearly two months ago. The United States military is undertaking a massive and ongoing operation to prevent this very wicked, radical dictatorship from threatening America and our core national security interests. We are going to destroy their missiles and raise their missile industry to the ground. It will be totally, again, obliterated. Obliterated? Not so much, because while its navy and missile stockpile are depleted, Iran continues to terrorise America and its allies and hold the world's economy to ransom via the Strait of Hormuz. And that brings us to one of the more bizarre interventions, a hotly contested category after all, from the US Defence Secretary Pete Hegseth, who calls himself the Secretary of War. I can't confirm or deny whether we have kamikaze dolphins, but I can confirm they don't. Kamikaze dolphins. Let me explain if I can, because it's been reported that Tehran may be trying to use dolphins to carry mines to attack US warships. Iran apparently thinks it's hilarious. And if they haven't got the dolphins, they've certainly got the means and they haven't hesitated to deploy them. Well, the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is due to speak at the White House in the next hour. So let's speak to our US correspondent, James Matthews. James. Hi, Cathy. Good to be with you. Marco Rubio, maternity cover for Caroline Levitt today. And, you know, we'll see what he has to say. Maybe, just maybe, there will be some kind of concrete guidance on where this conflict is going. Because I tell you, Cathy, we've not had that today. You speak about the kamikaze dolphins. That fits right into a memetastic day so far. That was Pete Hegseth, first thing this morning at the Pentagon, cut to the news conference given by the President. He was in the company of sports people, Gary Player, the golfer, and also young kids. It was all about fitness. And, you know, yes, he spoke about Iran. While speaking about kids' sports, he said to one kid, do you think you could take me in a fight? Donald Trump walked out to the theme tune to Rocky, Eye of the Tiger. You know, anybody could extend the metaphor any way they want. But I don't know, he's shaping up to be more of an Apollo Creed than he is a Rocky right now, Cathy. That means he might be heading for defeat, incidentally. But, yeah, messy. It's just been messy all day in the White House. And I do wonder what we will get from Marco Rubio, often in this administration, a voice of reason, relatively, who talks diplomatic language in a way that the rest of the world can't understand. What he has said and what Hegseth repeated this morning is that in terms of any military escalation, that will be up to the President. Trump himself was giving no clues this morning. He did speak about crashing the Iranian economy. Said he might be inclined to do that, but essentially tossing possibilities in the air. I think in tone, Cathy was quite defensive this morning. I got that from Hegseth. Normally he comes out swinging, but he was speaking about the red, white and blue dome to protect this project freedom in the Strait of Hormuz. You know, more defensive in posture, I thought. And maybe that's what we're settling into in terms of the United States approach. One thing I did find interesting from Hegseth as well was he spoke about this dome and how the rest of the world needs to step up. Yesterday we had the Treasury Secretary, Scott Besant, talking about how he wanted to see China help out diplomatically with its old mate, Iran. Spoke about China buying so much Iranian oil that it was essentially, you know, favouring and buying into terrorism. So trying to pile the pressure on Beijing to step in. Increasingly it looks like the United States is acknowledging, putting its hands up and saying, look, we cannot do this alone. We get that. We need to outsource this. We need outside help. And that very much appears to be the case because Donald Trump isn't delivering any hard answers of his own or certainly any evidence that he has what it takes to break the impasse. James, great to have your analysis as ever. And just while we've been speaking, Iran's president has been quoted by Iranian media saying that the US is pursuing a policy of maximum pressure. That it wants Iran to come to the negotiating table and surrender to its unilateral demands. This is impossible, we're told, he said. Also told the Iranian president has remarked that they're seeing a military build-up and threats by the US, despite what he calls the path of dialogue being underway. Well, Michael Gove and Ayesha Hazarika are on the sofa tonight. Michael, it's fascinating, isn't it, hearing the White House today and Trump and Hegseth both sort of ducking and diving, I guess. I mean, does America really need surrender? He's putting pressure on Iran to surrender, but isn't America the need to? Well, I think it's the case that behind Trump and Hegseth's bellicose rhetoric, America is unclear exactly how it can bring the conflict which it ended into to anything like a satisfactory conclusion. There's no off-ramp, as the saying goes. No, and again, as we've seen in the course of the past week, the hostile rhetoric and the hostile acts directed at America's allies, including Germany, is actually, while it's discomforting for America's allies, it's more of an expression of impotence rather than power at the moment. Now, one shouldn't obviously assume from that that we're going to see a rapid de-escalation but it is the case that I think that America finds itself exactly, as you say, in a position where there is no easy exit from this conflict. And are you sure, you know, that might be a problem for the US administration, but it's a problem for the UK government too, isn't it, in terms of the cost which is going to be eye-watering of this intervention in Iran? Absolutely. I mean, I think we will look back at this conflict and from an economics point of view, it can be one of the most consequential conflicts in terms of the impact it's going to have on the global economy, way more than actually any other conflict that we have witnessed, really, I'd say, in the last 30 years. Well, it's been described as the worst energy crisis in history. But also, what America has done, I mean, the words impotent, the words impasse have been used, but this absolute lack of strategy. Look, everybody agrees that Iran is a terrible actor and we all want to see a regime change in Iran, there is no question about that. But the cack-handed way in which Donald Trump has operated, he has gifted Iran this stranglehold on the world in terms of the Strait of Hormuz, where all of this oil goes through. If he was going to launch this in good faith, with strategy, they should have thought about the Strait of Hormuz. Clearly, that did not happen. Michael, 30-year borrowing costs have hit their highest since 1998. I mean, it's catastrophic for the British economy and other economies around the world. Yes, most economists believe that Britain, of developed economies, certainly in the West, is the most exposed because of the nature of our reliance on trade and also because of the way in which our energy market and supplies are so configured. So yes, we do face, as you say, increased borrowing costs, Britain and France are the two weakest gazelles in the pack, which the wolves and vultures of the international bond markets are eyeing up at the moment. And of course, we've heard in the course of the last 72 hours, warnings that we will see in our own households, inflation continue to rise and even the prospect of summer holidays curtailed as a result of the impact on fuel. Now, of course, the government will argue that these are consequences of global and geopolitical factors outside its control. Yeah, I mean, you know, this is an unprecedented crisis, which is true. But the difficulty will be that voters tend to blame the incumbent for economic pain, even if the levers, the economic levers to alleviate that pain are out of that government's control. I mean, that's the case. Well, look, of course, I mean, the bigger thing is not sort of who's to blame for this. It is the absolute material effect that this is going to have on British citizens, British businesses, our government, you know, our state. This is going to have huge, profound and really deep lasting consequences. And we are a country which has been struggling economically for a long time now. Yeah, but as Michael says, you know, we went into this weaker than other economies, didn't we? And that's partly got to be laid at the government's door. Listen, but you also had a situation where we were on track to have inflation coming down and people were predicting two cuts in interest rates. OK, I'm not saying everything's rosy in the garden at all, but I think to blame the government for this, for what has been Donald Trump's folly is unfair. And he used to be a chum of Donald Trump. Well, I've certainly met him twice. I, in his eyes, I'm sure committed the unpardonable sin of saying that I didn't think he deserved to be elected this time round. Relating, of course, to his behaviour the last time he lost an election when he refused to acknowledge the Democratic verdict. I'm a great believer that once the people have spoken, you have to respect that choice. But I think that while it's undoubtedly the case that there are some things that Trump has done which have confounded his critics, even his most fervent supporters, and I wouldn't count myself amongst those, but even his most fervent supporters have great difficulty being able to regard his behaviour in this conflict as statesmen like. But you're a bit of a neocon, or you always were. What does he need to do now? Does he need to finish the job? You saw the breaking news there from Iran suggesting there's another military build-up, slide back into war is inevitable. Does he now need to finish what he started? I think it's exceptionally difficult to do so because the ability to harness the strong domestic opposition that there is to the Iranian regime, I think existed beforehand, but it's exceptionally difficult when Iran is in a state of siege. And one of the changes I think we've seen is the consolidation of power in the hands of military hardliners within the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Committee. And I think that that has been particularly, for people who do want to, as you indicated earlier, do want to see regime change in Iran, it is deeply concerning that you have a population which will continue to face oppression for months ahead. He's got to find an off-ramp, and the way to do that is to work with his international allies, particularly the Gulf region. This has completely destabilised the ecosystem of the Gulf states. And this is a time where we really wanted some peace and stability. We want the Middle East to start becoming a prosperous, peaceful, safe place. And this has absolutely flared the whole thing up. The fact that you've got Iran firing back into the UAE today, all of this is terrible, not just for us, it's terrible for the region, it's terrible for everybody. And Donald Trump has got to sort of swallow his pride, he's got to engage his brain, and he's got to find an off-ramp. Right, more to come on all of that, of course. But efforts to tackle what the Prime Minister has called a crisis of antisemitism in the wake of the Golders Green attack. So a roundtable of senior figures assembled in Downing Street today. Representatives from the police, the arts, higher education, trade unions and businesses heard a promise of zero tolerance from Saqir on antisemitism, amid suspicions that Tehran could be behind some attacks. We must also deal with the forces that drive this hatred in the first place. So we're confronting them directly. One of the lines of inquiry is whether a foreign state has been behind some of these incidents. We're investigating, of course, all the possibilities. And we're clear that these actions will have consequences if that proves to be the case. Our message to Iran or to any other country that might seek to foment violence, hatred or division in society is that it will not be tolerated. That is why we're fast-tracking legislation to tackle these malign threats. So Ali, you've just come back from Number 10. You've been there all morning. What have you seen? It was pretty extraordinary because it's not every day you get all of these people in the same room. So the Prime Minister convened 90 different people, the likes of, you know, the leaders from Barclays, the CBI, the Met Police, the commissioner of the Met Police was there, the National Theatre. I mean, you do not see those people in the same room at the same time very often. From such a cross-section. Yeah. And so basically, this was the Prime Minister saying, you know, we need to deal with anti-Semitism society-wide. So we had the various secretaries of state as well, I should say, talking to those people. And they were saying, you know, what is the scale of anti-Semitism in their sector and how are they going to grapple with it? I mean, was it all talk? Was there any action or was it a bit of a talking shop there? It's such a key question. And I should say, you know, I was in Golders Green last week. I got a sense of the level of anger and the thing you heard again and again is, this is words, not action. So that is what we want to see next. What was really interesting is, I was at the lobby briefing as well, I should say, which is also on Downing Street. I was asking them about some of the specifics. So for example, you know, in education, they were saying they want to release, universities to release the scale of the problem, to crack down. They said zero tolerance. What does that actually mean? I was asking and actually, you know, the Prime Minister's spokesperson didn't really have that many details. They said the details will come out in future. So those are the details people are going to be waiting on. Well, the Director of Public Prosecution, Stephen Parkinson, has issued new guidance to prosecutors, instructing them to fast-track hate crime prosecutions because of what he called a deeply troubling rise in anti-Semitic incidents. I think there's a lot of casual anti-Semitism, which is quite corrosive in terms of the safety and security of communities. I don't think people are sufficiently aware of the fact that casual words, but designed to cause distress, actually involve criminality. Ayesha and Michael are still on the sofa. Let's start with that fast-tracking hate speech prosecutions. Is that a good move? Is it doable? I think it probably is, but I think that one of the deeper concerns, and indeed the Prime Minister acknowledged this, is looking at the roots of this hate and so it's certainly the case that government agencies, like the Crown Prosecution Service, can and should do more. But what all the government needs to do is to analyse effectively what the ideological wellspring of anti-Semitism is, whether it comes from Islamists, the far left, or the extreme right. And I think that there's been an imperfect understanding of precisely where this has been generated. So the Prime Minister, again today, did indicate that a closer look at the ideological origins of hate was something that the government would be determined to prosecute. Is that the point, that you need to go far deeper into all this and this has actually been left untouched for much too long? We have to go far deeper. There's many different strands to this. There's the immediate security and policing concerns, which are of huge importance because Jewish people do not feel safe right now. Secondly, there is sort of what can be done in terms of prosecuting and hate speech and all of that. I think social media has got a huge part to play. I was a bit surprised that there weren't social media companies involved in this seminar today. I mean, maybe they were invited and didn't show up. Who knows? I mean, I know the Prime Minister did meet with social media companies a couple of weeks ago to talk about sort of banning social media for younger people. But I think we have to do a lot more heavy lifting when it comes to difficult conversations, interfaith relations, community cohesion, and proper integration. I went to an interfaith event, sadly, on the evening of the stabbings last week, and there were senior figures from the Muslim community, the Jewish community, Christian community there. And it's only when it feels like there's a crisis like this that people go, right, we have to get a rabbi and an imam together and have these conversations. And so many of these people who do really good work in their communities say this work is tough, it's lonely, it's underfunded, there's a lot of difficult issues that need skills, kind of guidance and spaces to have these difficult issues. You're not going to fix this overnight, but so much more needs to be invested, not just when there's a crisis like this, but long term. And you've got to have difficult conversations. And this is, anti-Semitism is, it's, there is an epidemic. I've seen it myself, I've heard it myself, but it's not for the Jewish community. The Jewish community cannot fix anti-Semitism alone. That has to come from the Muslim community, the Christian community, different bits of politics, in the same way that Islamophobia cannot just be fixed by the Muslim community. We have got to do more resilience and capacity building in terms of bringing different groups together. Because Michael, there was a bit of a backlash at the weekend when the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission talked about Muslim communities needing to be more vocal in condemnation. Was that right? Was it right what she said? Or was the backlash right? I think both Kishwa Faulkner, the former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and also Fiyaz Mughal, who runs Talmama, which is an organisation that monitors anti-Muslim hate, called for a greater degree within the Muslim community recognition there. But again, they speak both as Muslims and it's not for me to speak either for or on behalf of the Muslim community. I think that, as Ayesha says, there's a responsibility on the state and on politicians and that responsibility devolves onto all of us to recognise that there is a distinction and a very powerful one between Islam, the faith, and Islamism, the ideology, and it's a distinction just as profound as that between socialism and Marxism or between patriotism and fascism. But what do you think about the call for Muslim communities to be more vocal? I think we all have to be more vocal and I think there are... Yeah, but the call was aimed at them in particular. And I think that, and I'm from a Muslim background, there are issues in the Muslim community and I have never shied away from that and we have got to have these difficult conversations. But they often say that anti-Semitism is the coal mine and the canary, the canary down the coal mine when it comes to discrimination, prejudice. And it starts with Jewish people and then it moves on to other people. And let me tell you this, many Muslim people are also feeling very vulnerable right now. I know myself, I probably have never had so much racist, anti-Muslim hate of late. And we all have a responsibility and people in the Muslim... And I spoke to an imam the other night and he was saying he is doing really, really tough work in his communities, talking to young people, trying to educate them. But he said, you know what, it's really lonely. It's really, really lonely doing this work. And what we have to do is we, in the same way, the Jewish community cannot be expected to fix this by themselves. Of course they can. We all have to help. The Muslim community has to play its part. But the Muslim community needs help as well. If you smear all Muslim people as Islamists or saying to me I have to be deported out of this country because I'm a threat to this country, that's not helping things either. We've got to have better capacity building across different faiths. People of no faith as well. I go back to social media. People are getting radicalised right now. And it's striking that it's often people from majority Muslim countries abroad who are often most acute in dissecting some of the problems that we have in dealing with extremism. So, for example, the United Arab Emirates, not necessarily everyone's model society, has been very clear that its young people won't be educated in certain British universities because of the extremist danger. Hold that thought just for now. Because tonight in the North London community of Stamford Hill, thousands are gathering to show support and to honour the Jewish festival of L'Agba Omer. Olivia Guthrie is there and joins us live. Olivia. Jewish families are starting to fill up here and there has been tight security on the streets with metal barriers and 140 security personnel and police guarding this Orthodox Jewish festival. Now, I'm not allowed to go down there in the crowds because I'm a woman and this is a very holy event. And it has a certain extra significance this year, they say, because the rabbi is offering special prayers in the wake of that spate of anti-Semitic attacks in recent weeks, including the stabbing of two Jewish men in Golders Green and that suspected arson attack on a former synagogue in Whitechapel this morning. The Met Police Commissioner, Simon Rowley, saying that Jews are experiencing their gravest threat to date in the UK. Now, the Prime Minister told a summit today to tackle anti-Semitism at Downing Street that the whole of society must not turn a blind eye to extremism. And he says that he needs to put his words into action. Now, the organisers here say that they joke that the Prime Minister often offers up a solidarity salad of words, but they hope that this time he means to take action. Amongst the actions that he's planning to take, he says he's going to fast-track anti-terror legislation to enable the banning of organisations like the IRGC. He says he'll provide an extra £1.5 million in funding to, as he puts it, strengthen community cohesion, and he will give new guidance to prosecutors to fast-track hate crime cases. The Director of Public Prosecution saying that it is time to draw a line in the sand in what he calls a troubling rise in copycat anti-Semitic incidents across the country. Olivia, great to hear from you and great to hear that beautiful music in the background as well. Well, Iran and action to try and tackle anti-Semitism is sure to feature heavily on our late-night programme, The Wrap, tonight from 10pm. Here to discuss all of today's big stories and the best of tomorrow's papers will be journalist and broadcaster Sonia Soda and broadcaster and commentator Ali Miraj. Now, just what is the point of the Lib Dems? And that isn't a rude question, but it was one of the questions I asked Sir Ed Davey when I spoke to him a little earlier in the latest of our series of interviews with party leaders. Sir Ed Davey, let's start with what the Prime Minister said today on Golders Green, promising to fast-track hate crime prosecutions. Do you support that or are you concerned that in the rush to legislate there is an issue here potentially with freedom of speech and civil liberties? Well, I think we all look very seriously at the proposal because what's happening with anti-Semitism in our country is appalling. And I was speaking to the Jewish community in London earlier today and listening to their fear and their anger, I think we now really need to act. We've had too many warnings, too many attacks on synagogues, too much hatred being spread and I think this is one proposal. There's many more that we need to see. And does that action extend, in your view, to supporting the Prime Minister on banning certain marches? For example, there's one coming up next weekend where a pro-Palestine march is going to coincide with a Tommy Robinson march. Should that be banned? Well, I leave those decisions up to the police because I think you need to do it on a case-by-case basis. Of course, we need to make sure we protect freedom of speech and the right to protest. But what has been happening is some of these marches have been hijacked by people preaching hate and we've got to stamp down on that. We need to support the police, give them anti-Semitism training so that they know what it is wrong and where they should intervene. But is it absolutely clear where free speech ends and where hate speech begins? I mean, for example, you know, a placard saying Is that absolutely, definitively hate speech in your view? I think we've got to look at that very seriously because what that means is it is violence and it does spread hatred. People who see... So it is hate speech. You say look at it very closely. Is it hate speech or isn't it? I think it crosses the boundary but let the people who need to look at this look at it. We will support approaches which crack down on hate speech and crack down on anti-Semitism. One thing that I think the government has dragged its feet on and I'm afraid the conservatives failed to do it is to prescribe the IRGC. Quite a lot of this hate speech and indeed some of the violence is coming from Iranian-backed terrorist groups and the fact that we're not prescribing given the police all the powers to go after those Iranian actions is just not good enough. But if the police decide that they want to ban that march that we're talking about you would back that, would you? If the police believe that a march is going to be unsafe and cause a real unrest and create that hate speech yes of course. I mean talking about banning things and stopping marches going ahead it's not very Lib Dem is it? Well I make it clear that we want to protect freedom of speech we want to protect the right to protest and that will be our default position but if there's going to be danger if there's going to be a protest hijacked by people who are spreading hate the police need to make that judgment and need to be able to step in. So the act of protesting about what you've called genocide in Gaza others dispute that terminology but that's the phrase you've used you're happy for those mass protests to take place you don't think that there's an intimidating effect of that for Britain's Jewish community? There are many people who protest peacefully and lawfully and respecting others and I think that is just true but when people cross the boundary when they are spreading hate the police need the powers to be able to intervene. And you're very clear where that boundary is because it's not always clear is it? One person's placard you know trumpeting hate speech is someone else's freedom of speech. Well I think that's why we've called on the police to have that detailed training so they can make those judgments one can accept that those judgments will be different because it can vary from march to march from placard to placard and that's why the police need our backing to have the full training so they can step in. We do have to take this seriously. I mean obviously the reason why we're talking about all of this is because of the war in Iran. Trump says that Iran should raise the white flag of surrender in the meantime though it's devastating Britain's economy and other economies around the world. You've backed a fuel duty cut a heating oil price cap I mean have you looked at the taxes are at record highs our borrowing figures are at record highs you're not living in the real world are you? Totally in the real world because the damage that's being done to families and businesses across our country which will basically hit economic growth. What is happening because of these high oil and gas prices because of Trump's idiotic war in Iran is the chance of actually getting a tax windfall. She's getting a tax windfall from the energy profits levy from the gas revenue from VAT on fuel duty and what we're saying is use that not use anything else that was in the budget but use the tax windfall you're getting to recycle it. But there's already a windfall tax that the government has proposed so I mean there's not really much difference that you're proposing. No this is very different and we're using figures from independent experts who say that there's about eight billion pounds extra on top of anything that she's announced that is a windfall and we're saying look let's have a temporary package initially for three months and our package comes out at two billion pounds we would take excise duty down to make sure that people had a in petrol and diesel we'd reduce the cap on bus fares from three pounds to one pound cut trains fare by ten percent that's to help people who are struggling because of Trump's idiotic war. But you want to take the easy decisions don't you really? You know you're an opposition party you're never going to get into government you can make these kind of populist gestures and you don't really have to account for it so if you wanted to take a really tough decision you'd look at your backing force say the pensions triple lock but you've said under no circumstances will you look at that? These are emergency circumstances aren't they? Well I think pensions you've saved they should be given that protection I'm proud it was Liberal Democrats in government that brought that in and it's made a big difference because pensioners in our country have fallen behind the average in Europe and indeed behind pensioners in countries that are much less well off than the UK. So no matter what state the economy is in you don't want to touch that policy pledge you will commit to the pensions triple lock? We have committed and we stand by that but let me go back to your point because you're suggesting that it's an easy decision I think it's a bad decision by the government not to follow our advice they are getting in this tax windfall because of this idiotic war people are really suffering it's hurting our economy and if you do what we're advocating what you would see with petrol and diesel prices coming down lower than they otherwise would have been you'd see a reduction in inflation and if you had a lower inflation that the borrowing costs of government would go down you wouldn't see interest going up so what we're talking about is good sensible economics with the chance of acting taking action it's really sad actually that we're the only party calling for this I've been really surprised how unambitious the Conservatives and Reform have been and I'm really disappointed that Labour doesn't feel the need to act But no matter what the economic damage from this war you commit to the pensions triple lock that is clear? Well I don't think we need to consider that at the same time as the war what we need to do It was a kind of straight yes or no really you commit to the pensions triple lock It's been a manifesto election after election Okay You're proud of standing up to Donald Trump not least over Iran but before that as well but you're not getting anywhere are you? I mean you know you said you'd boycott the state banquet last year and all that happened was you missed a nice dinner Well I think you sent a really clear signal that Trump's failure to act in Gaza was wrong and long last he eventually did act It was a stunt though wasn't it? No it was making a serious point and people like yourself covered it and you also listened to my argument that Donald Trump was the only politician in the world who could say to all sides look this has got to end we need the ceasefire and my overall opposition to Trump I think has been really really important We've seen take the Iran wall you mentioned Initially Kenny Bay not on the Conservatives Nigel Farage and Reform were cheerleading for Donald Trump and suggesting that we should enter the wall They were completely wrong In the past the Prime Minister although he may have got it right over not supporting Trump over Iran has been very very weak in dealing with this bully in the White House He's changed his tune now At long last but I would say this When he came in it was quite obvious he was going to be protectionist and put tariffs and taxes on our businesses That's why I led the argument that we needed an alternative and I said we should have a new UK-EU customs union to protect our businesses I want to come to the EU and I wish they had done that I want to come to the EU and I do want to come to the EU but I want to ask you about Thursday's elections You are the third largest political party in Westminster You're now at fifth place in the polls What is the point of the Lib Dems under your leadership? We keep winning At the last election we had our best result for 100 years under my leadership Last May for the first time ever we beat both Labour and the Conservatives in the local elections just a year ago Throughout the last year which party won more council by elections it was the Liberal Democrats You can say that now but we're some days off the results coming in but it looks like it's going to be the Greens and Reform winning these elections Well let me tell you we're going to gain We're going to have a really good night But you're going to be well behind the Greens and Reform I mean Greens are the new Lib Dems aren't they? They're the new insurgents No they're basically following on from Jeremy Corbyn and the left wing of the Labour Party What we are doing is winning in seats where I think will be crucial next election So we're going to take seats off the Tories in Surrey and Sussex and Hampshire and Huntingdon So the Tories are your main opponent? Well in those areas but we'll also take seats off Labour in parts of London like Merton and Southwark and go to Birmingham go to Stockport around the country So I predict You'll have it always basically Well we're going to win in many many places You're right And what's quite exciting for us in the party Let me finish this It's really really important This will be our eighth consecutive year if we do make net gains of increasing Liberal Democrat councillors Why are people so unhappy with you in your party then? And 51% of Lib Dem voters think you're doing well That's all Well listen What's going wrong? They like us winning and I'm really proud that we keep winning By the way they also like whether it's my leadership on the opposition to Trump whether it's being the most pro-European party leader or indeed the way we fight these local elections So the fact that we actually take local elections on local issues unlike the other parties who bring national politics into it all the time They actually like The fact that we're raising on things like fly-tipping like light potholes We've been criticised by Kemi Badenoch She said well the Liberal Democrats they're the sorts of people who want to fix your church roots She said that quite a while ago She was a new leader Well yes but she still said it and she was right People in the community do like us and we try to fix things and I'm really proud of that I'm surprised that more of your own voters don't like you according to the polls Well let's see how they vote because they keep backing us and we keep winning We'll get you back on I know we will But look before I get on to the EU which I do want to get on to We are seeing the collapse of the status quo and the collapse of the two-party political system Your pet subject proportional representation No one talks about that anymore but in this new era of politics that should be talked about Are you still up for it? Totally I think when you see the results on Thursday night when we will make big gains I think you will find lots more people talking about electoral reform because when you're in a multi-party system it means First Past the Post doesn't represent people at all It's even worse than it has been in the past and therefore what I hope we can engender and maybe you can be part of it here on Sky is when we see those results unfairly reflecting people's views the case for electoral reform and PR will be even greater You're going to start shouting about that and I wonder if you're going to start shouting also about rejoining the EU because your policy at the moment is a four-stage plan to join the EU You know the Greens who I've said they're the new Lib Dems I know you disagree on that Totally disagree They're talking right now about rejoining the EU Clear policy Why can't you be clearer on that? Well they clearly haven't talked to people in Europe because you'll be shocked to know that Europe doesn't trust the UK after what the Conservatives did They're very worried about what Nigel Farage is saying So you're not promising to rejoin because you don't think they'll let us back? No, let me finish If you want to rebuild that trust you've got to show that you're serious about it and therefore you have to take the steps and I don't apologise for that at all Everyone knows that eventually we'd like Britain to be at the heart of Europe We've said that in our last manifesto It's hardly new The question is what is a practical way that will help grow our economy help cut the cost of living help make sure our country is safer and defended better or we keep putting forward those ideas Yeah you just don't want to be clearer because you don't want to lose all those Tory votes you were talking about a minute ago I couldn't be clearer I've just said what our position is You're very gradual aren't you? Well I don't apologise for that because that's real politics So what we have done to be really clear for your viewers is we've called for a new UK-EU customs union so we can grow our economy and trade better We've called and agreed with the Europeans for a youth mobility scheme because that will help growth We're finding ways to promote closer trading relationships between our UK and Europe because that will grow our economy and we're also looking at ways we can cooperate on defence because with Donald Trump pulling out of supporting Europe we need to make sure that we're working with our European allies to defend our country I've had a go at you for not being bold enough on the EU but one decision you have made as leader which has been bolder than some of your predecessors was over suspending your peer Lord Renard pending a fresh investigation into claims of harassment against him made 13 years ago Do you still want him out of the Lords? Listen, I'm going to wait until that investigation is concluded You're right, there is an investigation but when there is an investigation it is right that we allow that investigation to take its course So I can't comment on... When is that investigation going to complete? You'll be surprised to know it's an independent investigation of me so I don't know All I know is... It could be years I doubt it will be years What I would say is that I'm very happy to come and talk to you once that investigation has been completed Right, just finally I've asked all the other political leaders about their families their personal lives and you know, women in politics are always asked how they cope You know, you care for your disabled son John, your wife Emily has multiple sclerosis Does it ever feel too much juggling leading a party and everything you've got going on at home? We are carers and we're fortunate to have the support of our family and to manage the caring for my son working together as a family but many people aren't and they don't have the voice they're exhausted and we're in privileged positions both as Emily as a councillor and myself as an MP to speak up for carers There's maybe 8 million family carers looking after loved ones and people haven't spoken up from the past because I have this privilege and I'm honoured to have it Do you ever feel exhausted by all this? I think I need to use that to speak up for people Well, I think most people sometimes have days when they're tired but I am strongly motivated for the Liberal Democrat values I want to empower people empower carers who don't have a voice and hold the powerful to account whether they're water companies whether they're social media giants that's what liberalism is all about and I get up every day wanting to pursue those values and also to stop people like Nigel Farage and Reform ruining our country trying to import Trumpian divisive politics and ruin our democracy We're going to fight that every day Well, waiting in the wings listening to that is long-time Private Eye editor Have I got news for you? Captain, welcome to the show I know I've been on your show quite a lot so now it's time for you to return the favour So thank you Now, Ian, you saw me giving the Lib Dem leader a hard time there about the collapse of a two-party system which should favour Lib Dems but isn't yet But does it pose challenges for you? You know, you like to satirise the politicians but is it difficult? Now you've got a multi-party system to know what to get your teeth into? No, there are more of them and the populist candidates are temporarily, I think, popular and the more popular they get the more they're subject to scrutiny and in the case of both Reform and the Green Party the leaders get more and more bad-tempered with journalists and more outspoken and they say more often that I never said that and that you're smearing me and so there are new areas to cover Is there too much though? Do you sort of stretch yourself too thin trying to cover all the different party leaders now? Try not to I know you've got a vast team at Private Eye Oh yes, enormous team but I'm really interested in the local elections because we have, unlike most papers we have a regular slot we run a whole page called Rotten Boroughs every week about local issues and we're quite interested in local issues and these local elections everyone seems to be treating as though they're national elections and I think that's quite odd Although Ed Davey does say he likes to talk about potholes and things like that Yeah, well I think people quite like that so that's why I'm slightly worried the polls are assuming this is going to reflect a national mood and immediately most commentators you know, including myself are talking about the psychodrama you know, what happens next? Will Keir go? I'm not sure that's what's going to happen Do you know what? I'm beginning to think you're a Lib Dem because you're sounding rather like Ed Davey because he also said it's very hard to predict Yeah, well I've got a water slide coming up in a minute Where's your wetsuit? But I mean, you know, it is quite hard to predict but obviously we're all assuming that it's going to be a fantastic day for Greens and reform and so on Yeah, but last issue in that column we ran a cartoon with a group of local councillors sitting around saying Right, we've been elected to sort out the Middle East and I think they're going to find they haven't They're basically elected to sort out local councils and the basic problem with all of them which no one wants to admit is no one's got any money at all There is literally no money So if you get elected in one side are going to say we'll find the money through waste You know, we've had some reform councils they've found there isn't any waste Yeah, I mean they've started selling off the art down in Kent, haven't they? And the ones who said they would never put up council tax are putting up council tax The other lot say we're going to find brilliant innovative schemes usually involving outsourcing housing or IT and then they lose a shed load of money You said it's sort of easier for you because there's more people to scrutinise and so on One thing that is tricky for journalists like myself is when people won't do interviews So Nigel Farage won't come on the sofa here Polanski, the Green leader, won't come on either at the moment See, they've still got 24 hours to change that Well, he's had a number of interviews in the last few days that haven't gone very well So he may be feeling a bit bruised But how do we hold these people to account if Nigel Farage pulled out of a BBC interview at the weekend? How do we do that? Well, I think there is the written media Impossible Yes, it's not just the broadcast media but it makes it more difficult And particularly when they are in the full Trump mode which is, you know, the populist example now is you say, I never said that You've taken that out of context or you're smearing me I mean, usually when you're quoting their own words You said this yesterday I mean, that isn't a smear It's not a sort of centrist, lame-tard view And this happens on both sides Yeah, I mean, you were talking about the assumption that Keir Starmer is going to face a leadership election We did go in to interview the Prime Minister last week and we asked him about that He was saying he wouldn't listen to anyone except his wife about when to step down But I mean, how do you view the assumed leadership contest that might begin next week? Well, I'm not sure I mean, we all spent the past 10 years saying Oh, the Tories, they love psychodrama Thank goodness we're not going to have that again Well, it turns out that Labour like psychodrama as well And the media do We like a who's up, who's down, who's next But it may well be, if you look at the options for Keir Starmer if the war hots up, the cost of living crisis gets even worse Does anyone actually want this job as Prime Minister? Is it a good idea, if you're the Labour Party to immediately go into a leadership election? Well, I'm sure Angela Rayner, Wes Streeting and Andy Burnham all want the job at some point But not now Yeah, well, maybe I mean, how would... They may not have their seats I mean, that's the other problem Which of those three is sort of manna from heaven for Private Eye? Well, I mean, all three of them have a problem You know, Wes Streeting was pretty matey with Peter Mandelson and that is one of the reasons that Keir Starmer is in trouble at the moment sort of being matey with Peter Mandelson which hasn't turned out to be a great judgment call So Wes Streeting has to overcome that Angela Rayner hasn't yet been cleared of her various housing difficulties, as we would put it And Andy Burnham isn't an MP Yeah And he's got to find somewhere You've done quite a lot digging around on Angela Rayner I mean, I'm assuming that that's the candidate you want in terms of keeping you in business Any of them would do fine Angela Rayner obviously is louder and more colourful But again, she appears to be the choice of a section of the Labour Party but there's another section We've had five prime ministers since Brexit We have Is Britain becoming ungovernable? It does look like it, doesn't it? But that's partly because I think it depends how difficult it is to get rid of the prime minister And Keir Starmer, I mean, he has got a couple of years to go He could hang in It's very difficult to get rid of people It was very difficult for him to get rid of Corbyn I don't know if he remembers that But it took a while Boris Johnson wants the herd moves, as he puts it You know, if the cabinet start treating him the same But that took a while too There were a lot of Boris issues I mean, I would say from the second he got elected But, you know, I am a bit cynical But if cabinet ministers start quitting, then it games up, isn't it? He's got a lot of backbenchers He could fill the cabinet Yeah, Boris Johnson tried that Let's just end by thinking about these larger-than-life characters You've got Farage here, you've got Trump over there Farage getting millions from the cryptocurrency investor Christopher Harbourn You ask, is the job getting easier? A man whose basic line is that we don't want to be told what to do by foreigners who then accepts vast amounts of money by someone who's based in Thailand is quite funny Whether this bothers anyone at all, I've no idea Cryptocurrency is a terrific scam This is spiv land, it really is But that's the point, I suppose, isn't it? That in the old days, you know, your magazine worked I'm not saying it doesn't work now, it works extremely well, of course But, you know, there was this assumption, wasn't there? That we all knew what was true and what was ridiculous And that's how satire works, isn't it? Everybody's in on the joke But when people are climbing down conspiracy sort of rabbit holes online It's difficult, isn't it? I always think that until I go and read old copies of Private Eye from the 70s, 60s And I think, I don't believe this Levels of corruption, cynicism and complete nonsense populists I mean, the emergence of the hard right is not entirely new Nor is the fact that we get manifestations of extreme left-wing views So, again, I think a certain amount of historical distance Before it's the end of the two-party system It's the end of the three-party system It's five parties, is it? Farage has had plenty of parties before You've looked back at the back issues I mean, I hate to say this, but this is your 40th year, isn't it? As editor I just wondered if, you know, I was 20 years on Channel 4 And here I am on Sky Are you thinking about a new job? No, I'm rather like Keir Starmer I'm hanging on for grim death You've got the majority Ian, it's great to see you as ever Well, my very own Private Eyes Michael Gove and Aisha Hazarika were listening to that They'll be back on the sofa next Michael and Aisha are back on the sofa with Ian here Ian was saying, he was talking about leafing through Back copies of Private Eye to the 60s and 70s And pointing out that things were pretty outrageous and bizarre then I don't know why I'm looking at you, Aisha Because actually, Michael, you're too young Michael, you remember the 60s and 70s It was mad, wasn't it? Well, I do remember leafing through Private Eye Even as a primary school kid I was going to say, to check you were in it No, not at that stage The scandal came later It's been an unending chronicle, the scandal, really More or less from the age of 13 Before then, I remember Private Eye during the 1970s, certainly And you had, you know, bizarre characters James Goldsmith, John Stonehouse Private Eye had huge fun with that scandal But also the Private Eye covers of that time With Jim Callahan and Harold Wilson You had a gallery of luckless Labour Prime Ministers Marred in scandal, often not of their own making And then you had a gathering populist wave on the right So history repeats itself It's sort of strangely comforting, isn't it? That, you know, things have been sort of bizarre in the past I think things have always been bizarre in politics And we've never had, you know, great deference from politicians And nor should be What I would say is different now I think the conditions in which to operate as a politician A political leader are really... I mean, they've always been tough But I think the overlay of social media does... It just adds another level of complexity And I think you've got a paradox, right? I think you've got social media and everybody's trying to... You know, people are, you know, all over you Criticising this, that, the next thing, 24-7 And I think it's deadening some of our politicians It's making some of our politicians a bit more, kind of, risk-averse And a bit more, kind of, boring Not a lot of the candidates who appear to be risk-friendly on their social media I mean, all this vetting process I keep thinking I'm going to volunteer to do it I mean, take me half an hour to go through their social media I'll charge them £100,000 I mean, people are unbelievably reckless No, but I think I'd say the big figures in, like, things like the Cabinet I think they're much more risk-averse Like, they don't want to say anything remotely interesting or colourful Or maybe in the Cabinet, but, you know, Nigel Farage makes... But, Ian, you heard Michael He seems to be more familiar with your back issues than you are Yes, well, he's a lot older than I am I only really start 80s and 90s All right, of course, you've got your teeth into him in the past, though, haven't you? Sorry? You've got your teeth into him in the past, haven't you? Yes, God, I hope so There is rich material there Yes Was it painful, Michael? It was deserved and justified So, yes, of course, it was painful But I can't complain, because... And he's come back to the dark side He's running a magazine now, so... Exactly Yeah, you're right Older Older than Private Eye And gaining in circulation He had to get that in, didn't he? Ayesha, has Private Eye ever made any of your, you know, Labour colleagues' lives a misery? Oh, yes, absolutely Phew, I'm worried there for a minute I mean, that's the whole point of Private Eye Scurrilous and long may it continue You worked with Harry Arman This idea of accountability I was trying to say to Cathy, it's not very popular at the moment, is it? No, funnily enough I know you're saying things are really difficult for politicians now But a lot of them just, they don't really want to answer the question Also, there's a sort of kind of righteous indignation at the idea that anybody should properly scrutinise any actual policies It's like, how dare you? And that's a problem with Nigel Farage, isn't it? Well, it's a problem with lots of politicians at the moment One of the things is that you can't discount Private Eye in the way that you might some other satirists Because alongside the satire, you have hard-hitting investigative reporting If it weren't for Private Eye, then it wouldn't be the case that the post office scandal was brought to the attention of politicians Right, well, great to have you all on the sofa I can't end up agreeing with Michael Cohen Well, I think you just did I think you just did That is all we've got time for But for those who crave a slower pace of life I'll leave with snail racing in Taiwan