Childhood Trauma & Self-Trust: How to Feel Safe Again

You think that you have trust issues, but what that is, is truth. You were never taught what safety actually feels like. I'm your host, Edna White, and this is Keeping It Real On Purpose, where we have real conversations about real pain, real healing, and real growth. Today, we're talking with Sally Jones, a child protection advocate and founder of SQS for Kids. Her work is rooted in one powerful truth. Self-trust can be rebuilt, and safety can be learned, even after trauma. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. It's great to be here, Edna. So, I am very excited to have a child advocate, which I am. I'm an advocate against child sexual abuse. So, I push for that all the time, and I'm so happy you're here to protect our children. Thank you so much for doing what you do. Thank you. Okay. So, Sally, your story didn't start with empowerment. It started with survival. At just 12 years old, after experiencing abuse, you made a decision not just to survive, but to create a safer world for children. That's not normal thinking for a child. That's purpose being born in pain, and I applaud you for that. Thank you so much. I remember back then, actually writing a poem that resonated about what that all meant to me. So did I. This is so funny. My poem was called The World to Be. Yeah, it is kind of funny that it would come so soon to me, that big mission. And mine was, Where is God? That's kind of sad, isn't it? Yeah. That was good. Yeah. I can't believe that. That's so, I love it. So, when did survival stop working for you? When did survival stop working for me? In terms of, I guess it never really stopped working for me, but I guess, yes, the journey of empowerment itself continued throughout. And I think when I learned about attachment theory, when I was in university, I made some really solid, I had some great mentors. I worked through Greg Moran, and actually we consulted with Mary Ainsworth when they were in a strange situation back in the day for attachment and bonding theory. And I guess then I was thinking about my own self and my own journey when I did it initially. In fact, that was my end thesis, all about myself and, you know, could I find pathways to healing? And I did see that there is hope. And that if people, you know, if I respond to the world, maybe differently, and try to be empowered myself to do something, make some kind of sense of the ways that I went through, that I could change and become more empowered in the journey that I've gone through. Yeah. So you talked about hope, and hope is, you know, a general word that I know it's probably been thrown around a lot. And now there's certainty. You know, which in your journey have you held on to, and which one have you lived out, hope or certainty? Um, wow, that's a big question. Because I think that continues on in some format throughout your whole journey. Yeah, I still have hope, because part of me goes, Oh, my gosh, is this ever gonna happen? And I'm kind of hanging on to that. As much because it's my life dream. Hope is that it actually comes into fruition, you know, and everything happens that I'm building right now. Because if it didn't, it would be devastating to me because it would be like it wasn't, you know, my journey wasn't worth having all of this, you know, and doing all of this work. I've been really resilient throughout my whole life. So really, people call me a dog with a bone. So that hope I clung on to and continue to do so. Hope, though, is it's a big word when you think about when I was a young child. I was in my writing, like you were, and hoping for a better world. And now I'm creating it. So yeah, it comes with big empowerment these days. And recognition is doing everything to kind of solidify that hope. And I'm actually feeling like it's gonna happen, Edna. Well, it's like, Oh, my gosh, this might actually happen. So this is going to happen. Let's put it that way. And that's certainty. Yeah, that's certainty. Yeah. So yeah, that's some, that's really quite recent, the certainty. So yeah, interesting how that would move on to. Yeah, I think hope is what we hold on to when we don't understand. Yeah, yeah. Certainty is what we grab when we know. You know? Yeah, certainty probably started about 10, 15 years ago. Right. Exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. Because we're figuring it out, you know, even more relevant. Hope is really relevant when, when we're young, we don't know much of anything. Yeah, yeah. Like, we have no idea. And being, you know, survivor of childhood trauma, you have no, you really don't know what certainty is, you know, because now everything's unstable, you know, your home life. Yeah. The things you thought were certain are no longer that way, you know, you know, and then you have no even hope for tomorrow, because you're in this, this now bubble of, you know, everything's just crazy. Yeah, this works out, you know, hope is changing. Something funny, Edna, part of my hope back in the day when I was living in severe abuse, and hiding in my bedroom and hiding from, you know, the perpetrators and worried. I had David Cassidy on my walls. Wow. Okay. I don't know if you remember David Cassidy, but he was kind of, yeah, he was like my family. Come on, come on. You say that to younger people, they're like, hmm. Yeah. And to me, because I love music as well. And I figured he was going to be my savior. And in a way, he kept me safe back then. So because I had This music takes you there. And beautiful thing to have brought out. I too was a proponent of music. I love his music took me somewhere. And I think my first picture on my wall was kiss. Remember the group? Yeah, I saw it. Yeah, he was my first one with the black and white face. He was on my wall. He was on my wall. Yes. And he was taking those pills. So he had blood everywhere. And yeah, yes, absolutely. He was that one. And believe it or not, on the other side was what is her name? She used to sing, turn my brown eyes blue. I know who that is. Pat Benatar, Pat Benatar, Pat Benatar. Oh my gosh, I love Pat Benatar. Oh my gosh, we should have been friends back in the day. That was on the other side of my wall. And I used to love to hear that song. And, yeah, I loved all types of music, but it took us somewhere that we could be safe. And I think that's probably the only thing that I had that was safe was music, because I could sing it in my head. I was gonna say, did you sing? Yeah, I sang all the time. I sing now. I sing all the time now. There's songs that just come up, like I'm blue. Where do you get this from? Like, you know, my son's all like, Mom, every day, you don't sing the same song. You sing a different song every day. And I was like, yeah, I do know that. It could be three or four times a day, it's a different song. But that was one of my coping tools is music. Same. I was exactly the same. I love to sing. And I still sing. And I still write songs and have quite a few little songs packed away. But when I was younger, I was discouraged from doing so and made fun of and judged from family. Yeah. So she's singing in her hairbrush. And I think probably if I'd been more nurtured. Me too. I would sing. You were probably good too, you know, like, over everywhere. That's one thing my mom didn't. Well, I guess my mom is always working. So it wasn't like she would say don't sing. But when she was home, she wouldn't stop us being kids as much as we possibly could, you know. But yeah, singing was my thing. I could, you know, then, you know, being abused, you kind of go there. You go right there. Yeah. You sing it over and over and again, until it's over. So whenever it's over, you know, or when it's over, you're singing another song, you know, you're like, where do you go? And you just start listening to the song. Yeah. It could be even yeah, a form of dissociation. Yes. Yes. Where you kind of break free from the abuse and you find your happy place. That is correct. Yeah. And I had, I remember having a doll that I think my mom found at a thrift store. I'm not really sure. Or maybe someone gave it to me. It was olive oil. Do you remember olive oil? From Popeye? Yeah, that's Popeye's girlfriend. Yes. I had her. She was my raggedy Ann. And that was my song to save me from when the perpetrator would come. And I would sing Popeye the Sailor Man and I'd repeat the song over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. Edna, you and I had very similar childhood. Yes. So much, so much so. Yeah. It looks like you're doing wonderful things too. So for me, I mean, I'll be going to podcasts as well and alchemy of drama. You're doing just beautifully. Yeah. So I want to step back and talk about your advocacy with SQS for kids. Talk about that to the audience and what that is. Well, okay. I was a teacher for 30 years and during my teaching and I, of course, brought all of my skills from the other jobs and from university and that kind of thing from attachment theory into it. And I also was a forensic nurse back in the day and also learned a lot about mental health and intergenerational transition of abuse as well. So I saw a lot of gaps in the system based on my lived experience and also based on my jobs and education. So one of the biggest things was there were stranger danger happening during the day. Everybody was teaching about stranger danger. And I thought that's basically kids up, you know, because especially kids with disabilities who I taught, well, you can hug your uncle, whoever, and it's okay to be close to your family. They'll never hurt you, which is, of course, one of the biggest fallacies out there. So, and I'm like, who do kids trust? You can't say you can trust anybody. So who do they trust? Well, the only person they can be sure to trust in their whole life is themselves, as we would know. And that was even a little bit shaky. You know, I don't think I even trusted myself or maybe not trusted others because I never did disclose to anybody ever. So I took that with me throughout and I thought, how do I do a system where kids learn to trust themselves? And that was like the biggest start. Once I could figure out, okay, they can trust themselves by their actual instincts and their primary defense system. So trust their gut reflex, trust that inner voice that's so wise and so intuitive and always tells them the right thing to do. And then use that voice to be able to talk to someone to self-advocate for themselves, but not just around that, about their wants and their needs and their rights in general as well. So empowerment of voice for me was huge, plus gut reflex power and understanding emotions, because so many kids have difficulty with emotional regulation these days. And I think it's because, I'm not sure, maybe leaky systems, people who are overprotecting them and so on. Maybe it's not as sharp as it used to be because generationally, these things will, you know, fade out if we're not careful. So I think sharpening their senses and getting to understand their body and why it's doing what it's doing and having some cognition around that and really honing in on those things to get them to trust their body. Once they trust their body, they're now trusting themselves and their emotions. So once they trust themselves, then they can reach out and trust other people. Yeah, and then that's when I look at and teach all about grooming behavior to kids. They're really young, they're five to six years old, years one and two, or grade one and two, you call there. But that is where you build the foundation, because child protection there looks very different than child protection in years five or six, for example. You know, you're looking at social media, you're looking at trafficking, and not that it can't happen when they're really little as well, but other issues come up for them, bullying online, that type of thing. So for these guys, I thought, if I get a structure that's really sound and really good, then we can grow from that. So this is all my theory as well, because people don't think you can actually use, they don't really talk about security and security tactics when they're talking about safety. But that's where safety begins. So that's where I began. So I developed my structure of trust around the self-trust, and then trusting others to make sure that they're not grooming, and the kids look at very basic grooming at that age, because it's very different again. So, where's my puppy, you know, or get in my car, that type of thing. It's a little bit obvious, yeah. Yeah, giving gifts, making them feel more special than others. The concept of magnets, they're trying to draw you closer, right? And you want to be, because you want to be that special person. So we feel that. And then the last thing about trusting others is having safe and healthy boundaries. So you know, if anyone crosses your boundaries at all, that you need to talk to someone. And I guess around that is all encapsulating is that they build and develop a, I would call them champions or safe people. So safe champions in all aspects of their life, so they can actually build a relationship, a trusting relationship with a trusted adult. And that's the core bones of the program. And yeah, and this is what we teach through really character-engaged learning online. It's an online program. And very sound, robust system online. We already have the website built, and we're making sure that that's safe for the kids. There'll be no personal information. So yeah, they won't be able, and hackers won't be able to get through like they do normally. And yeah, just about empowering the kid, because the kids usually left out of the solution. And when you think of a child being faced with a perpetrator, whether it be parental or not, they need to have some strategies to know what to do, because otherwise it's just like throwing them into the water to the sharks. So everyone says, oh, kids shouldn't be made responsible. We can't do that. It's like, yeah, we can. Kids are much more intuitive and smarter than we think. And they can do things. They have the power to do things using their voice and all that stuff. It's so empowering. And I guess it's, yeah, every character has a concept as well, and the characters are very engaging. So yeah, this is the type of thing that I'm building. And I pretty much have the content for 90% of it already, including scripts and everything else. It's just getting it built now, getting the money to get it built. Gotcha. So I want to jump to how, you know, recreating those environments. How do people unknowingly recreate unsafe environments because it feels familiar? This happens during, in Australia, in the child care centers, that kids just kind of think this is what life is, therefore I go, you know, how can you empower, well, you can empower a two or three year old, I'm sure, by having a secure environment. But when kids are really young, they don't know the difference. So they kind of may go along with it, because of course, obviously, it must feel good to them to be feeling that special. And even physically, sometimes it will feel good. But, well, it certainly doesn't at the beginning, that's for sure. But you know what I mean? They can perpetrate it, they're tricky little, you know what. So yeah, but they do go along with it. But also, people who are getting into organizations here, there's a huge population of perpetrators that are getting in and violating kids once they're in. So I think, yeah, creating environments, we just have to change the lens, I guess, and to teach kids what a safe environment looks like, because we do talk about that as well. Is that answering your question? Yeah, I think that I was thinking more of like the parents, you know, whether checking in with them, you know, with their phones and things like that, you know, making sure they have like a grasp of that. And not just letting them go willy nilly, you know, not willy nilly, but just like know where their location is, things like that, as I was thinking, you know, and just like, there was an incident with someone here in New York, one of the several incidents, but they didn't realize that the perpetrator was in their home, and this happened with their child. And then the child didn't trust anyone in the home, and went to school and said something. And so, you know, the person had no idea. You know, and I just think that we have a perception, no, we see things, but we disregard them, if that makes sense. Absolutely. And this is what we need to teach people, parents and educators to be vigilant about what grooming behavior looks like for that specific age group as well. Obviously, that would have been maybe in a little bit older child, which had to do with social media. Here, they have a ban on social media. So, kids aren't allowed to be on until they're 16. But that doesn't change the fact that they find a way to get on. Yeah, they do. Right. Exactly. I was gonna say that. They find a way. Yeah. And 70%, it shows in that they've actually, 70% have now figured out how to get into their system anyway. So, 70%. And that's after a media ban after a couple of months. But in every aspect, I think parents just have to be really vigilant in overseeing their child. Because it can happen in any aspect of their life. So, understanding grooming, understanding someone that takes special interest in their child. And especially blended families. That's so, so, so important. Like, blended families, boyfriends, you know. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's so very important to be utterly aware. Because I had a blended, you know, when I was my second marriage, I had a blended family. He didn't have children I had. And so, I would, you know, I sat down with him, there's no reprimanding from you to these children, because these children are mine. Yeah. And there's no, you know, going in their rooms, none of that stuff, you know, that kind of, you have to kind of make this conversation happen, even though they might be uncomfortable. But, you know, so that they, you know, he never reprimanded them, he never said anything to me about them. But, you know, if he said, Oh, well, you know, this one was doing this, whatever, maybe I saw him doing such and such. But he didn't, I didn't give him the authority to say. I love that. So, it's not about integrating your children into your life, into his life, it's more about integrating him into a safe life. Exactly. Yeah. And that you're going to be overseeing everything regardless of what your relationship is. Exactly. And I think we've gotten out of that. We've gotten out of that. We've gotten way out of it. I mean, you know, I deal with a lot of children. They have, they're in mixed families that, you know, they're not married, but their boyfriends and girlfriends, you know, whatever, and they're coming into the home. It's backwards, it should be okay. It should be integrating. The children should be the ones to having that conversation. Yeah. This person's coming around, and this person, they should know all about that person before you just, Oh, here we go. Yeah, we're doing it totally backwards. And that's why there's so much sexual trauma with children. I agree. Yeah, I think what you've done a narrative like that to parents would be really, really good. So that that kind of environment and that kind of mindset. Yeah, I think that's beautiful. You did exactly the right thing by those children. I'm sure they're very secure. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, right. Yeah. And, you know, I see it a lot and I work with a lot of children from the CPS system and see, you know, that's one of the things I do talk to them about, you know, and not putting anyone in bad light. But, you know, your body and your space is important. Yeah, it's your space, it's important. And if you feel that it doesn't feel good in your ear, in your intuition, because that's, you know, I tell them their stomach, you know, inner voice. Yeah, you listen to that, listen to that, you know, and if you can, you can cry out to somebody, make some noise, move around, get out of that situation, and then tell somebody, say, I didn't feel good in that situation. I don't like that. That way they're on notice early, you know, because it may be worse than that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and you do have to listen to your kids as well, like you said. And what you said in the last three or four sentences describes everything I'm doing with SQS for Kids. It's really someone with experience and lived experience in trauma gets this. It's the people outside of that that often go, right, right, right. Yeah, I am. I also was violated in two big situations by I was neglected by my parents. I'll give you that. But I, my book, the violation, physically and sexually came with the boyfriends that came into the house. Right? Yeah, into their house. Yeah. So I totally get what you're saying, you know. The boyfriends is just not, to me, you know, I didn't, I didn't, I dated, but it was outside the home. And I told my children going on a date, but it was outside the home. They never came in. And then in the not until I was dating a long time, then I said, okay, this is the person I'm interested in. You know, this is, this, you know, this is family's family that's here. I'm talking to them first before he even comes to, you know, and then I said, okay, this is then we introduced each other and we met the family and all of that stuff. So it was like, yeah, I wanted my kids and they were older too. That's the other thing. I think I was made sure that they were older enough to speak out to me because I didn't get that, you know, from my parents. And I was saying, yeah. And there's that power of voice again. And this intuitive voice and that reflex, all of that is so important and being able to, the thing that goes missing usually is the actual conversations, right? Right. Right. No conversation. There's no conversation that back then there was no conversation. Even when, when, when my parent was told about it, there was no conversation with me. There was you go in there, I'll take care of this. And, and, and, and it's, it remained the same. It just remained. It was like, okay, there's no change. I'm in my room. I'm punished. So I must, I should, I must have been. Yeah. And yeah. Or you're just totally not believed, which is right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You sound like the perfect candidate to write the book on how to keep a child safe in a second marriage. Because what you're doing, like what you did was perfect. Yeah. Yeah. You have to keep them safe. I'm telling you, you have to, and you have to listen to them. That's, we didn't get that. You and I didn't get that. No. I didn't get it. I listen to my kids all the time. Tell me whatever, you know, what, what, you know, they were young and I was talking to them about sex and I was talking to them about their body. I was talking about, you know, what, you know, they are saying the words penis and they were like, mama, ew, ew, ew. You know, like, you gotta talk about that. You know, you gotta, you gotta talk about that. That's yours. You know, that's what you got. Keep it clean. You know, all these things, you know, and they were like, you know, they were mind blown. Like my mom talks to me about everything. Everything. Yeah. And how wonderful is that? That's, that's great. Yeah. I actually never was a mom and I'm not sure. I had a bad experience when I was 21 where I was raped and things happened that I think may have stopped me from being a mom. And I mean, just as well, really, because I mean, I really miss being a mom. I thought that that would have been an amazing experience for me. But I may not have gone through the same trajectory of life and done the things that I've done without. So like with children, I mean, so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess it was my, it was kind of my calling. It was my, you were meant to do this. You were meant to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Relationships are, are, you know, they're hard and yet they need to be healthy, especially with the level of safety and self-trust that you talk about, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And, and people who have been violated often are drawn to those yet you think it's what they know and that familiarity and not, obviously not a good familiarity, but some reason. Yeah. There's lots to be thought about with that. And intergenerational trauma as well. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I know people who have had children who have had trauma and yet they've been great moms. Right. It's like, how did that happen? Yeah. Decisions, girl, decisions. So somebody was going through this, what we're talking about right now. What, what would you give them to, to, to look back on and strengthen them? You know, even, you know, let's say, let's talk about children. Like, you know, you know a lot of my people listen, they're in their teens, 18, 19, 20, you know, tell them what, tell them something good that you would suggest for them or want them, want to have for them. I would say, first of all, when you're getting into a relationship look at specific things to make sure that someone's not like keeping you from your friends or keeping you from the people that you love trying to isolate you to make sure they're not checking your social media and where you're at all the time and kind of stopping that coercive control thing. And if he ever harms you in any way, shape or form, whether that be physically or psychologically, there is a problem. And once they're in a situation where they say get married, then it ends up being very difficult because then change becomes harder as you get more into a relationship. So know what you're doing at the beginning. And not that you want to have a checklist, but mentally you do want to have a checklist, don't you? You want to be able to know what kind of person that is. And just be really careful and not impulsive in your decision making about forming a relationship with people that may look like they could harm you in any way. Absolutely. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Can you tell my audience how to get in touch with you and anything that you have coming up on virtually? Okay, well, I'm not so much on Facebook, but that's going to change because I'm going to be on that social media platform for moms and kids and things. So I'm going to be doing more on that platform. And I do have a page already set up that's SQS for kids, number four, everything else is letters, SQS. And that stands for safety cues. And safety cues is a play on the word cue. So they learn little chunks of information about safety. So that's what a safety cue is. So that safety cue for kids in dangerous situations, it stands for, if I can remember that acronym. And they can reach out on the website. Website's there. It's all done. And there's a contact me there. If anyone's interested in supporting being a partner of any kind, then there's also, you know, a link for that. And a link for the podcast that I'll be starting, which is the alchemy of trauma. So how people with lived experience have transformed their trauma to something positive for other people. And yeah, so it's all on the site, or sally at SQS for kids. Awesomeness. Okay. So audience, relationships are only as healthy as the level of safety and self-trust we give them. If you don't feel safe within yourself, you will keep searching for safety in people who cannot give it to you. Healing isn't about becoming stronger. It's about becoming safe in your own body, your own voice, your own decisions. If this episode hit you, don't just sit with it, do something with it. Share this with someone who's still confused, still surviving and want to heal. And if you're ready to stop performing strength and actually rebuild your foundation, book a clarity session with me. Let's do the work. This is real stories, real hurt, real recovery, real strength. And we're turning it into purpose one story at a time with my guest today, Sally Jones. This is Edna White and my esteemed guests. And we're saying goodbye for now.