What Tucker Carlson’s Podcast Got Wrong About Vets | The Veterinary Roundtable

So like when Tucker Carlson's interviewing within the first five minutes, he says, there's no insurance. And I'm like, that's not true. I think that you're seeing an advancement in healthcare and it costs more. And that is what is the rub for everybody. Profits are not evil. They are necessary. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Veterinary Roundtable, the podcast where we answer your veterinary related questions while having some fun along the way. If you enjoyed today's episode or a previous episode, be sure to leave us a review on your podcast provider of choice. And if you have any feedback to offer to improve the Veterinary Roundtable, let us know. Now, if you're watching on YouTube, you're going to notice that there are no other ladies in red. And in fact, there's a man in brown. So let me just explain here. We have the holidays and we have illness and there's just been a lot going on in some people's lives. And so one of the things that I feel like we've been really good at with the missing a weekly podcast. If you will notice holiday, no holiday, illness, vacation, doesn't matter. Somehow this group has figured out how to post a podcast every single week, just something that we're all very proud of. So came to this week and situations arose. And so I said, you know what? I am going to get Mr. Richard King to be on the podcast with me. And of course, I cleared it with my other hosts and we're going to talk about the post that I did on the Tucker Carlson Dutch Joe Spector interview that was on maybe last week. I think it was last week. And there's just so much to unpack there that a single post, I didn't feel like did it justice. And I think that we kind of wanted to air out some of the topics and some of the items within the podcast in order to provide some clarification. And so Richie, who knows a lot more than I do about finances and private equity and kind of that entire landscape of veterinary medicine. I was like, you know what? I'm going to pick his brain. We're going to go through this podcast. We're going to identify some of those things where we felt like certainly I did when I was listening to the podcast. My jaw was on the ground more than it wasn't. And so we're going to break those down today. So that's what you have in store. Okay. So do you want to start with maybe potentially the first thing when you were watching the podcast that came to mind where you were like, what is going on here? Now, I also want to say we're not here on the round table. We are not people who attack people and who are throwing shade. We really are about dissecting issues and really giving people honesty and our opinion, but then also fact. Okay. So having said that, what do you think is the first thing when you were watching the podcast that made you pause and hit the pause button on the podcast and go, there's no way that's correct? Well, let me start with this. I think that's a two-pronged question. The first, there were several moments as I listened to it where I wanted to hit pause, but at the end of it, once I've completed listening to it, I'll listen to it and watch it. That was when the biggest kind of pause moment came and I thought, okay, what is the real purpose of what's behind this podcast? And well, let me back up a little bit. I think whenever you're doing these kinds of things, I think it's really important when you're trying to advance a narrative that you stick with honesty as much as you possibly can. And I mean, not that there should be an intent to deceive necessarily, but I think when you're making an argument, you use those points that best advance your argument. I think the problem that I had with the podcast overall was that there were so many things that were not credible or stretched the truth or were outliers in furtherance of you're using the outlier to say, well, this happened, therefore, this always happens. And that's not necessarily the case. And I think I came away from the podcast, and especially toward the end when Joe Spector gives a way for you to contact your legislators, it became very clear what the purpose of the podcast was. And that was to push for a political outcome in those states in which Dutch currently can't operate, which is about 16 or so states, Texas being one of them. And I think that's what was disconcerting, or to me at least, with the entirety of the podcast was that they should have led with that instead of building up and at the very end going, oh, by the way, all these outrageous statements in aggregate, contact your legislator so we can change the laws so we can operate in those states. And listen, I think it's important to say this too. I think that telehealth absolutely has a place. And you will not find a greater capitalist or laissez-faire person than I am, than myself. But I think Dave Ramsey always said something. He said something once that I've never forgotten. He said the most successful entrepreneurs he's ever had the pleasure of dealing with are fanatical in their honesty and ethics. And I think it's really important to lean into that and to say to your, I mean, at least personally, is to say you have to be credible in the arguments you're making. And when you're listening to a podcast like this and every other point, and someone who worked in vet med for a while, you're going, that's just not true. I mean, this is just so outside the bounds of what's true that it erodes your credibility. Well, I think for me, the first thing that he mentions is no insurance. There's no insurance. So like when Tucker Carlson's interviewing within the first five minutes, he says, there's no insurance. And I'm like, that's not true. There absolutely is insurance coverage for pets. The entire theme of the podcast was veterinary care costs too much. And the reason is private equity. And one of the reasons why they say it costs too much from an out-of-pocket standpoint is because there's no insurance. So to your point, there is insurance. There is insurance. There's absolutely insurance. Now, what companies are pet insurers off the top of your head? There's Pumpkin, there's- Trupanion. Trupanion. Oh gosh, why can't I think of- There's several. There's lots of pet insurance companies you can take advantage of. We've used Trupanion. They're amazing. So there is a way to transfer that risk over to a third party, just like in anything. I mean, so there are insurance products out there that can defer the cost for you. So to make the blanket statement that pet insurance doesn't exist, that's just not true. Now, what they should have done is qualified that and said, these products aren't like whatever health insurance. I mean, but to make that blanket statement as they don't exist is not true. Now, he did say that private equity is, I think, gobbled up like one-third to 50% of veterinary practices in the United States. That is a true fact. Yes, that is a true fact. And what's interesting is that, because I wrote down the reasons, actually, I listed it. I think it's a minute, one minute and 13 seconds, where he says, the reason, I'm sorry, that's not right. That's a little bit further down, where he said that private equity owns half of small animal practices, which is true. That's absolutely true. But then his very next statement is that they've gobbled up these practices, but then have not made them more efficient or improved care. And that the changes have really, mostly, largely corresponded with price increases without any corresponding improvements to services or equipment. Yeah. He basically says that supply has gone down and demand has gone up because of private equity. I don't see how that could possibly... I don't see mass closures of hospitals. I mean, that just does not pass the smell test, in my opinion. Now, he said demand has gone up. That's possible. That's absolutely possible that demand has gone up, especially after COVID and you had a lot of people acquiring pets that would otherwise not have acquired pets within a tight timeframe. So, I mean, demand could absolutely have gone up, but I don't buy the notion that because of private equity, supply has gone down. Another assertion he made is that quality has gone down, but prices have gone up. Well, then he uses a really bad example of him being at his veterinarian and asking for his records, and it's 50 pages of... He said, a quote was, care gets worse while prices go up. And he's saying that there's no added value. So, prices are going up without delivering any added value to pet owners. There's no new equipment. And he used his anecdotal experience of getting a 50-page PDF with scribble notes that care hasn't gotten better. And I'm here to tell you that that is not correct. Now, there could be some hospitals where corporate medicine has not created an improved quality of care, but certainly the hospitals that I know of and in our experience, that is not the case. Think about this though, and this is from a business standpoint. Why would you buy an entity and take proactive steps to make it worse if it's a long-term hold? And that's the thing that doesn't make any sense. You don't buy a new car and go out and crash it immediately. It doesn't make any sense intentionally. I mean, so if they're buying... I mean, now I will say it is possible, and there are stories of other historical consolidators, shall we say, or large corporate owned entities that will buy a practice and then they will fold that practice into another practice or whatever. I mean, it's possible that that does happen. Well, I think in the early consolidators, they didn't do a very good job. I think nowadays we have consolidators and who we would call partners that are actually making things better. And his claim or his belief that there's little modernization and they're offering the same services at inflated rates is not what I see happening. I think that you're seeing an advancement in healthcare and it costs more, and that is what is the rub for everybody. So when you look on social media, and it's not just Joe Spector. I mean, he's a super nice guy in this podcast. I don't have anything against him. I'm just saying that as much hate that's out there that's being spewed to the veterinary industry is creating a lot of animosity and a lack of trust on owner's parts with their veterinarians. And I think that the blame is being applied in the wrong places. I think that healthcare has gotten more advanced and with more advanced healthcare, human, almost standard care given to pets is going to be more expensive. We were listening to a veterinarian the other day on Instagram and she was talking about how can't we just do things the old way? I'm like, you could, but you also have an obligation to provide and offer the best standard of care. And also people are more litigious in today's world. Preston Pyshko The other thing too, and then kind of back up a little bit, I think that's interesting because if we concede, and I think he's right in the statistic that about 50% of hospitals are corporate owned, that means that 50% aren't. So if there is that large of a price disparity, price and quality of care disparity, corporate versus individually owned, what an opportunity for the individually owned practices, if that's the case. And I just, that just doesn't, I don't see that, I don't see the disparity. I have not seen the disparity and I continue not to see that. I think it's- Mary Goodman Yeah, between a privately owned practice and somebody that's owned by- Preston Pyshko Right. And I mean- Mary Goodman Well, because it's all the same, right? I mean, I suppose that you could take your profit margin from, or your profitability from 10% to 15% being owned by a corporation because you have better purchasing power. So then therefore you're making better money- Preston Pyshko Yeah, but that has nothing to do with quality. Mary Goodman Like money that you can file away, but- Preston Pyshko That's not a quality of care pricing issue. Mary Goodman But right, the pricing is still the same. So like if you are running your practice appropriately, and you are benchmarking where you should be, and using benchmarks that are appropriate for maintaining profitability, then you're going to be extremely similar- Preston Pyshko But the assertion is- Mary Goodman To a privately owned, to a corporate owned practice. Preston Pyshko The assertion is that private equity alone is raising prices and deteriorating care. Mary Goodman And that's not the case. Preston Pyshko And that's, I mean, as a business model, that makes no sense. Mary Goodman Especially if you're blaming them for wanting to make money. How would you, how do you round that square? It doesn't make sense, right? It's like people claiming food companies want to kill your dog. Well, that doesn't make any sense because they want you to buy as much food as possible. So why would they want your dog dead sooner than later? Preston Pyshko And look, and let's back up a little bit. What is private equity actually doing? They are taking businesses, streamlining them. He even says that. I think he says they streamline them, or Tucker does. Somebody says that. He basically gives a really quick description of what they do to eventually take it to the end. And let's back up a little bit. What is private equity? Private equity is a collection of institutional investors, or just an investor class that puts money, they pool their money together, and they go out and the private equity firm's invested. That's what happens. So as an investor class, they expect a return. So it does not do them any good to take any proactive steps to deteriorate that return, which goes to really the fundamental question of what exactly, if you're really raising prices and deteriorating care over time, that's not going to help you. It's not going to do you any good. Now, there are things, they'll point to things that go, well, they're cutting labor. Okay, there are other things internally like that. I mean, you could point to those things, but they're trying. I mean, it's- Mary Jones But then again, ultimately, people leave. People leave and you don't make as much money. Like, none of it makes sense. And I think the new corporate partners aren't interested in that. They are interested in growing the practices. They are interested in making money, but they are interested as well in creating good places to work. Trevor Burrus And that's not to paint with such a broad brush to say that all private equity experiences are positive. Trevor Burrus That's not it. I'm just, I'm only, I only know about the private equity as it pertains to VetMed. Mary Jones Now, one thing I find interesting is that people just jump to that side of the equation or that side of the discussion, and they never happen to ask themselves, I wonder if the mom and pops, the places owned by individuals, if they're just not running businesses correctly. Like, maybe their prices are low because they didn't invest in equipment, that they don't, they aren't adequately trained and they aren't adequately staffed. Like, why doesn't anybody ever ask that question, that their pricing is actually not correct because they don't know what they're doing some of the time? Trevor Burrus And as someone who, I mean, you and I, when we did, when we developed All-Star and worked at all those years, running a business is hard. Mary Jones Exactly. Trevor Burrus It's hard. I mean, and I, my heart goes out to all those people out there struggling to make things work. I mean, you are- Mary Jones And then being vilified for trying to make your business become something. And that's where I don't understand pressure that's being applied to veterinarians to somehow figure out how to make pet care affordable and accessible to everyone. Trevor Burrus See, that's a completely different issue. And this is something that just, I'm going to have to really put the cap on what I say here because I think the term affordability is tossed around too much. And I think you have to really break it down into, can you not pay for it or are you unwilling to pay for it? There are lots of things that I encounter every day that I could afford, but I'm not unwilling to pay for it. I thought about that. I took our car to have the oil changed and they're like, hey, do you want us to change your windshield wipers? I'm like, nah, I'll just do it. Now I could have, now other people were like, no, I don't want to go to O'Reilly or AutoZone and buy them a Papa Ma and just pay it. That's me because I mean, I could pay for it, I just don't. And I think that's where you have to draw a distinction between are you really incapable of paying for proper veterinary care or are you unwilling to pay for it? And I think that once you break that out, I think that it makes a difference in the argument because then you're saying, okay, you just don't want to pay for it or you just don't, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And I think pitting the two sides against each other is not helpful to anybody. And I think, and again, going back to the broader notion, I mean, some of these things, I mean, in order to advance the narrative, you have to make these outrageous claims. You have to say this, that, or the other or whatever, I mean, a broad generalization. So when you say things aren't unaffordable, it's like, okay, what's affordable? That's objective. I mean, what's affordable to this person isn't affordable to that person or vice versa. And I think that that's where, I don't know, this is, again, I just have a really tough time with this because I think whenever you compete on price, it's a race to zero. And I think that unless you are a volume business, like say a grocery store or fast food or something where margins aren't great, you just have to move a lot of stuff. And vet med is just, it's really hard to do that. It's just a very hard, it's a very, it's a, it's tough to be a volume provider in vet med. And I do think it's important for veterinary clinics to establish value and for people to understand why the charges are the way they are. And you can't be afraid to talk about that. But I think that in this podcast, there were sentences that were said, there were statements that were made where the word owner was used and they were used in such a way that, you know, that we don't necessarily care about the animals that we're more concerned about the profits and our decision-making and the business models that we use are imposing these constraints upon us. And so then therefore, instead of being focused on animal care, we're focused on profits. And again, it's created a system where then there's pressure to upsell. And I have yet to see a veterinarian who's interested in upselling. Okay. Let's back up a second. Profits are not evil. They are necessary. Now, so long as you are operating professionally, ethically, and honestly, I don't, it's not as if, I guess it's very difficult for me because I say to myself, it's not as if you go get a loan and it turns out, you know, you sign up for all this stuff, they tricked you into doing all these things. That's not the case. Well, that's what they're stating though. Or the sentiment is that, yeah, veterinarians are, you know, most of them are kind at heart and they really want to take care of your animal. But you have these others, when they recommend these things, it's to upsell. And it's like, no, you have to understand that the quality of care and what these students and these younger veterinarians have been taught in school is to accurately and thoroughly diagnose your patient, your pet. And that costs money. And so they're going to tell you the best care that you can give your pet. Are they willing to work in the gray zone? Absolutely. Absolutely. When you say I can't do all that to find out what's wrong, then there are times we're left guessing and we're all okay with that. So I don't know where all this hate is coming from. And I think that's the thing that's most disturbing to me because our industry is under so much pressure emotionally. The veterinarians are leaving, the technicians are leaving, and it's unnecessary because things like profitability are viewed as evil. And profitability is how you increase training to empower people to enjoy their jobs more or to stay entrenched in the industry longer or to buy new equipment so that makes their jobs easier or to develop processes that are more efficient. What's the incentive though for anyone to take a risk on an investment or an opportunity or to open up a vet clinic? I don't know. Why would you? No, that's the thing that I don't understand is that when you're talking about profits, and let's go back to Dutch for a second, I guarantee that profits are an integral part of Dutch's business model. They have investors institutional investors, lots of them. They are requiring a return. Without profit, there is no return. So I guarantee you that if you were to talk to somebody from Dutch, they would say their profit margins are not zero. So this notion that profits are somehow inherently evil just because you make a little bit of a return on what you're doing is silly. And even in vet med, you're not talking about, I mean, 60, 70, 80%. You're not making margins like that. It's between 10 and 20, which is good. But I mean, it's hard. It's hard to get to grow a veterinary clinic to scale to where you're doing okay. I mean, I can tell you it's hard. It takes years to get to a certain level of business where you can kind of sit back and go, okay, it's not hand to mouth where actually we have a little bit of breathing room. And I think that's where it's very, and that's why I say my heart goes out to these people that are struggling and have put their heart and souls into their operations because you do deserve a profit. You do deserve a return. And you shouldn't be bullied into having those things. Right. You do deserve to be able to retire at a certain age with a certain nest egg and be able to live comfortably. That's okay. I mean, it's really annoying to me sometimes you have for-profit institutions demonizing other for-profit institutions for doing the exact same thing. That's a rub for me too. That's the problem. I'm like, look, if you're going to have a problem with these kinds of things, then you have to point the fingers back at yourself and to say, look, and it's kind of goes to the private equity argument too. Private equity, like I was saying before, is just a group of investors looking for a return. That's the same thing with venture capital. The same institutional investors that have invested in Dutch are the same type of investors that invest in private equity. Well, and that's the same thing with a private owner. An owner who puts in their sweat, their financial dollars into their inventory, into their business is in search of a return. It does not make anybody bad. And another point that he talked about too, was that vet care has gone up 2X versus inflation. I actually looked this up. It's, I mean, according to the BLS, I think 2020 to 25, they said 25%. Price has gone up 25%. Now we could have an entire podcast or series of podcasts about the flaws in the BLS's inflation model, because I won't call it what I want to call it, but it's not necessarily accurate. The notion that prices have only gone up 25% across the board, I mean, from a consumer experience standpoint, only 25%, I beg to differ. Anybody who buys groceries can tell you that things have gone up more than 25%. And I think the broader point is that as costs go up, prices go up. And it's not as if, and kind of going back to the margin, it's not as if veterinarian or vet med, small animal hospitals went from, I don't know, 20% to 60. I mean, the margins are probably about the same, but you have the increased cost in the field. I mean, it costs a small fortune just to become a veterinarian. Therefore, they demand higher wages as they should because of the model. Your facility costs go up, your supply costs go up. I mean, it's not, I guess what I'm trying to say is that prices could have doubled. Let's just assume for the sake of argument, prices have doubled. The margins haven't necessarily doubled. So no one's making necessarily any more money from a margin standpoint than they were before. But yet, the claim is greed drives these price increases. And I'm like, not necessarily. That's not necessarily true. I mean, and I think that's- Otherwise you'd see all these veterinarians living and driving. Well, no. I mean, I think that that's, and that's the part of these arguments made during the podcast I had such a problem with. You're saying, well, inflation went up this, but this is, it's like, okay, well, let's just assume it did. From an economic standpoint, are the business owners or investors any better off? Not necessarily. It's not as if they're printing money all of a sudden, and then it's just not the case. Another area where I was like, what? Was when he said dental costs $5,000. I was like, I don't know where, where maybe at a specialist with intricate problems and oral surgery, a dental does not cost $5,000. Anyway. Okay. And now, but this is the thing though. How many dentals are performed via telehealth? That's not the problem. That's not his thing. His entire reason for being on Tucker Carlson is to, in my opinion, was to get people to understand that veterinary care has gone up and I have a cheaper solution for you. It's called telemedicine. That's great. And so you're going to save money by using telemedicine. Okay. Okay. And so he wants you to think that veterinary medicine is too expensive for the average owner anymore. And so use telemedicine instead. Look, and again, I may have said this earlier in the podcast, I can't remember. I am, I'm a fan of alternatives. I'm a fan of lower cost solutions. I have no issue with telemedicine. I have no, I mean, look, if you've got a better product at a cheaper price with the same or similar outcome that a consumer wants to choose, absolutely. I am, you will never hear me say that simply shouldn't be allowed. That's, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is they were trying to equate the two. Absolutely. Telemedicine is not. And that's why I say, I asked, you say this is five grand, but how, how many, how many dentals take place at all via telehealth? None. So it's kind of a false equivalence. That's, that's the problem that I had with that. But again, that goes back to the notion that you're taking these outrageous claims and painting with a broad brush and say, this is the rule. It's not the rule. I mean, I don't know. You tell me, I mean, it was, I don't ever remember. I mean, I don't ever remember any of those things being that much. What's that? Well, he says dentals are five grand. We don't have a dental. And I don't even know if I've ever seen a dental that's $5,000. I mean, it's just, again, it's like stoking fear in owners to, to so distrust. And that is where I'm like, this job is already hard enough. Why are people out there making, turning veterinarians against veterinarians, making owners distrust their care providers? Like it's just, it's crazy. And I think that at some point, I think that was, you need to say something. And so that's why I said something on the, on the post. I think it's interesting. And I understand from a broader, you know, strategic standpoint, trying to draw a narrative, I mean, drive a narrative like that to reach a political outcome. But I think it carries risks too, because you're, you're basically demonizing the industry with which you're going to have to try and work. And I, and that's, it's really hard. I go, you know, you know, you look at this and you go, okay, I get what you're trying to do, but you're basically, and this is the thing that, you know, you have 50% of the hospitals owned by PE, let's say, but day-to-day PE firm, I mean, the people running the PE firms aren't day-to-day seeing clients as a veterinarian. So I think it's, it's really hard as I listen to the podcast, I think, how are you not at least tacitly indicting the people that work in those organizations day-to-day seeing clients? I mean, it was really, it was hard. I was like, how are you not demonizing the veterinarians? I mean, you do this every day. I mean, how is this indictment of the ownership structure, not an indictment of that? No, it is. I mean, if I were a veterinarian working for that, I'm like, dude, I'm just trying to, I mean, come on, man. It's not, I'm not, you know, I'm just trying to provide gold standard medicine and this is what it costs. So, I mean. The claim that the AVMA does not support telemedicine is false. You can go to their website. It says they support telemedicine. It does need to be with a veterinary client-patient relationship that's been established. So. I thought the whole AVMA PE. Yeah, the AVMA is not interested in stifling innovation or stifling telemedicine. I thought it was. They have no interest in doing that. Now they do want it to occur in that manner. They want a veterinary client-patient relationship formed in person because I don't know. Maybe I'm one of few. I don't know, but telemedicine is very difficult when you're talking, when you're, when you were working with animals, you know, a dog is hard, a cat, a snake, a reptile. What? Like, first of all, you can't get close enough to it to see it in some of these smaller animals. And now you're asking an owner who's a layman to interpret what they see and relay it back to you in such a way that it does not interfere with your ability to diagnose and do it in an accurate manner. So, you know, if I say, you know, what does his mouth look like? And the owner says red, but they're talking about the fact that the tongue looks red, not that the gums are, but I'm assuming that they're talking about the same thing I'm talking about. Like you can only ask so many questions, you know, to get to your point. And I think at, at the end of the day, telemedicine is just hard. Is it useful in certain situations? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, if I want to look at a, maybe a laceration repair to mean dog, I don't want it to have to come back into the hospital because of anxiety. That owner can show me the laceration repair site. Sure. Great. So a surgical recheck for that purpose, you know, could be a place where it could be very useful because now you're not stressing out the animal, bringing it in, you know, but identifying intricate problems that then are identifying what you see in person and then being able to determine what diagnostics that you're going to recommend, it would be very difficult over a screen. They just don't talk to us. And so it's very, very difficult. And in my opinion, the owner ends up spending more money. Well, and that kind of goes to the, I think the honesty argument, I think that you have to recognize the limitations of what telehealth can do. And I think, again, it can serve a useful purpose, but I think that as a, he said in there that, you know, 50% of their clients haven't been to the vet in three years. I'm like, I just don't think that's necessarily a replacement for that. And I think that that's where it's hard because you think to yourself, okay, well, you know, what's the best, what's best for your animal companion? Is it to go to the vet? I mean, this is what I can do. You know, it's kind of like, I was trying to think of an example. It's kind of like changing the oil in your car. I mean, you can choose not to do it. I mean, you can say, I can't afford to do it. I'm not going to do it. And your engine blows up. I mean, that's what you're maximizing the life of the thing you're trying to maintain. And I think that's the difficult part is when I look at that and I say, look, if this is, you know, again, that comes back to the willingness versus capability argument. I mean, are you just choosing not to do it or can you really not afford to do it? And I think that's tough. I just don't think telehealth is necessarily a replacement. Well, I think at the end of the day, what they're really chasing based on the end of the conversation where he says to contact your legislators is that if you don't have a veterinary client patient relationship established to do telemedicine, you cannot diagnose and prescribe. Instead, you're just consulting. And I think that's fine. You know, you're in a rural area. You want to know if you should drag your dog two hours down the road. I get that. That is, you're not diagnosing. You're not prescribing. You don't necessarily need a veterinary client patient relationship to prescribe, which at the end of the day is my opinion is what he wants to see Dutch do, because that's where money is. And in his previous business was HIMSS, which is a pharmacy business. And I'm not blaming him. I mean, I totally understand profitability like we were talking about. Right. So he wants to be able to prescribe. The only way he can prescribe as veterinarians through telemedicine to prescribe is to have a veterinary client patient relationship. And the only way you can do that is to change the laws. And they've partnered. We were talking a little before the podcast. Last May, PetMeds had issued a press release saying that they had partnered with Dutch to do just that. So and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Right. But just say if that's what you want to do, just come and say, hey, real quick, we want to be your low cost provider for vet services and and prescriptions. Yep. There's nothing wrong with that. I think you could have done that, I guess at the end of the day, if you would have just done that, if you would have just come to the table saying, listen, this is what Dutch this is Dutch's ultimate goal is to get here. And we can't do it unless we have this. And you know what? We'd like to change the laws because we think it would be helpful to have the ability to prescribe and diagnose without a veterinary client patient relationship. And so that's what we're chasing. You know, fine. I don't care. But to vilify veterinarians and the industry itself and how it's set up and what it's doing right now, I think that's where my rub is. Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, I think that that's but again, it's understandable if you at least to me when I was watching that, especially at the very end when it was over and I was like, okay, this whole thing is basically a political ad. This entire thing is to make an outrageous claim to drive a political grassroots movement to get people to their legislators to pass these laws. And we've seen that in some states. We talk about the VPA issue that barely is a Colorado barely passed by like 50.5%. Yeah, I mean, you only need 50.1% to get something to pass in some of these states. So they're really just trying to get past that threshold. I think in 36 states right now, and I may be misquoting this, you have to have a veterinary client patient relationship established in person. And so that's what they're chasing. I think some of the numbers, I mean, because I went back and actually did some research after the podcast. And I think the numbers I thought it was 34 or they operate in 34 states. So there's 16 states where they can't and some of the states like Texas are big. So it would be a big get to be able to do that. And I mean, I get it. I mean, I think the thing is this, I think whenever you have these issues, you have to argue credibly and make your argument such that people can't poke a thousand holes in it and just say, listen, I get what you're trying to do, but I mean, the arguments and the points you're making aren't necessarily true. In fact, some of them are just not true. So I mean, so I guess the question is if you find blatant holes, what else is not true? I mean, and that's the other thing that I think whenever you're making these kinds of things, you could have somebody go, we've all done this, right? Where you go, you'll make a point. Someone offers a counterpoint and go, I get that. Okay, fair. But that's, but you know, and this, and that, that's another, and the format really was a part of the podcast where I was like, Tucker, come on, I need to push back a little bit. I mean, and can I just say something off the cuff? Also, I will say AVMA is not interested in decreasing the number of veterinarians. He said that they're holding enrollment down. I'm like, there's 14 new schools getting ready to seek accreditation. That is not happening either. This was hysterical when, and this is a very interesting kind of rhetorical trick where you would say, well, the official line is this, but behind closed doors, I'm like, okay, well, wait a minute. I mean, you need to get something on the record. I mean, you need to have somebody say, here's a direct correlation between private equity and the AVMA, some co-mingling of something, financial interest, something. And so his argument was that the gatekeeping that the AVMA is doing is contributing to the shortage of veterinarians, which is further inflating costs. No, I think what, and I could be wrong on this. I listened to it once or one and a half times, but I could swear that he was saying that the AVMA was in basically financial cahoots with the private equity firms in order to, it's basically false scarcity to keep the number of grads down, to keep all these things going in order to further enrich whatever. And I was like, I don't know, man, I don't see that. I mean, people, I just, I don't see it. I don't understand how the AVMA is somehow the gatekeeper, like you said, of all the travails in the industry. I mean, I think that there are things they could do, but I mean, and this is more of a medical question for you. I mean, a lot of those roadblocks or a lot of those standards, roadblocks, whatever you want to call them, are there for a reason. I mean, they're there to protect, and one of the things they didn't talk about was that what kind of med mal issues do you have with some of these things you're doing? I mean, med mal carriers are, they are extraordinarily risk averse. I mean, they're not going to want to do anything that's going to expose them to liability. So if there is a rule, for instance, there's probably a reason for the rule. I mean, to have, you need to be able to lay, if we're going to cover you, you need to follow these kinds of protocols and procedures so that we don't, you're not getting killed with med mal claims left and right. Now, the good news about that med is unlike human med is that it's a different med mal landscape. It's just that the liability exposure just isn't there like it is in human med. So it's still good. I mean, it's not oppressive, I guess, is a better way to put it. So, and these rules are, I would imagine, and you can speak to this better than I can, are there to limit that liability and risk. Maika Leibbrandt Yeah. I mean, I think the state boards, the AVMA itself, and the fact that we need to pass a test, the fact that then you have to pass state boards, I mean, all of that stuff is set up to provide at least some, you know... Brenton Burchard Like basic standard of care. Maika Leibbrandt Basic standard of care and protection for those parties that we're serving. So, and lastly, I will say that I literally laughed out loud when he said that veterinarians are worried the FBI are coming to their doors. Brenton Burchard Yeah, okay. Maika Leibbrandt I'm not, that's not a single thing I've ever been worried about for practicing telemedicine. I practice telemedicine. I am not worried about the FBI showing up to my door. So... Brenton Burchard Have you ever heard of the FBI showing up at the door of a veterinarian for practicing telehealth? Have you? I've never heard of that. I mean, if there has been, I mean... Maika Leibbrandt I'd love to know about it. If you're the veterinarian who's had an FBI agent show up to your door for telemedicine, please contact me so that I can interview you. Brenton Burchard And again, it's possible, but I would imagine if it were widespread, you would have probably heard about it. Maika Leibbrandt And my guess is that it's probably related to something else if they showed up at your door. Yes, but where, okay, so let me ask you this as a veterinary professional, as a doctor, where does that assertion come from? I mean, why would, why would someone make that assertion? Brenton Burchard It's a scare tactic. Brenton Burchard No, I know, but where, what is that, what on earth is that based on? I mean, what, I mean... Maika Leibbrandt It was, it was rooted in the fact that telemedicine is seen as evil and it's seen as evil because these people want your money. And so then therefore, because they want your money, you need to use telemedicine instead because telemedicine will cost you less. But telemedicine is not, you know, people are trying to keep it on the down low and trying not to let it get approved in states and you can't. And so then if you're going to practice telemedicine, then we're going to, they're worried if they're going to practice telemedicine to be able to offer this to you people out there, they're worried that the FBI are going to show up at your door. I'm like, this is ridiculous. Brenton Burchard So it may have never happened, but yet the accusations thrown out there that they're scared that it could happen. Okay. I would love to hear from somebody. I mean, it's, again, it's possible it's happened. I would love to hear what the nature of all this stuff was because that seems, I mean, I can see the state people. I mean, like you get a letter or something from the boards. I mean, I get that, that's possible, but the feds showing up at your door, I mean, that'll get your attention. But I mean, we'll see. But again, I think you did have a valid point when you said it's a very female-centric industry now and that is a very good fit for a lot of veterinarians because they get to work for them. A hundred percent. I think that given how it breaks down, because it's so female-centric, that does allow for creativity and ways to work within your career that suit your needs the best. But I thought that assertion was- Well, you know what? It's like, why not, and I probably, this probably is related again to money. Why not instead partner, have Dutch be a partner for veterinary clinics or corporations even that then your clients could talk to a veterinarian, but they're coming back to your practice for anything that is, there are so many other ways to mesh the two together so that it's not, and there are, let me just be clear, there are other very reputable telemedicine companies, TeleVet's one, I've used them, they're fantastic. They prescribe, I mean, they're great. That is you acting as the provider. And so you already have that veterinary client-patient relationship because it is your client. And so then therefore you're practicing telemedicine with them and then you can prescribe and whatever, whatever. But I mean, I think that it's, there's a lot of options I think out there. And I just think that, again, at the end of the day, I just wish that there would have been more honesty about what you were trying to do, Mr. Spector, that's all. I don't think you're a bad person. I don't, I mean, we did reach out to him. We had a conversation via email. Actually, it was before or after your video dropped, your response. After my response. And I emailed him and said, hey, listen, you know what, the Veterinary Roundtable, we've had lots of people on to have crucial conversations with, and there's lots of examples of heated topics where we've had people on and we've dissected the issues and given people a chance to share their side of their story and defend their objectives or opinion. And to be fair, sometimes, sometimes things are lost in the nuance and you can say things. And, and I think, and we, we've all done this where you'll make statements or you'll make arguments and you come back and you go, well, what I really meant was this. I was under time constraint, whatever. I don't know. Sure. I didn't have enough time to go through all the, all the topics. And so, you know, we emailed him and said, hey, we would really love to have you on the Veterinary Roundtable. And because of my Instagram post, he thought it was a little too volatile. We gave him examples like the VPA interviews and you know, we'll see. We, he said he was going to reach out to some of those people and see if what they thought about him being on the podcast. And so hopefully maybe he'll come on and talk to us. I thought it was important for him to talk to people actually in the industry to understand. And that's what we did with Evan Levine, Dr. Levine, because sometimes I don't think you understand the damage you're inflicting. I don't think it was done maliciously. I think that they just don't understand the damage they're inflicting in an already tough environment. And so we gave Dr. Levine a chance to just be like, and he did to his credit, he said, I'm sorry, I did not mean to make you as a technician, he said to Courtney, feel like this. It did give him an opportunity to right some of the wrongs, you know, and, and how he might have come about. You know, and I think, I think the broader argument, I mean, you said this earlier about if you just say the things, I'm a lower cost solution for, in, in this particular, you know, field and, and we offer, you know, a triage option that doesn't necessarily replace this other, you know, in-person option, but we, this is what we do. I think that's okay. And I think it's possible that if you were to come on the podcast and make those statements and say, look, what I was really trying to say was this, what, you know, I was, I was using these examples to try and say, this is why we realized there was a need for this. Because of these out, you know, the outliers, the person that did pay 5,000 for a dental or whatever, I don't know. I mean, and I think that's, that's a logical, legitimate argument to say those kinds of things. And I genuinely hope that he does come on and, and, and have a good, professional, cordial conversation. And he has a great story, right? He's an immigrant. He's got a great story. He's built something multiple times, you know, which is also intriguing and also amazing. And so Joe, this is your, this is your invitation beyond the veterinary round table. Right. We would love to hear what. Dutch's ultimate objective is and what you're doing to accomplish that. And I think, you know, shared honestly and openly with our profession. I think that it does a lot more good for your end cause. Absolutely. All right. Thank you so much for turning into another episode of the veterinary round table. Remember sending those questions and leave us a review. If you enjoyed this episode or a previous one, we'll see you next week for another episode of the veterinary round table. See.