Building Multi-Million Property Business from scratch | Hard Lessons in Entrepreneurship!

I did matric with my mother. You what? I did matric with my mother. Wow. Tell me how did you start the property business? I bought my first property in Guatemala in Springs. Let's talk of mistakes that you did. Okay. So now one of the key mistakes that I made in the business, even with my first property, falling in love. Romantic love? No, no, no. You know, love in general. Because the minute you fall in love, the mistakes that's happening. So how much would you say you've lost in rent value due to these mistakes? Millions. I mean, let me make a simple example. Last year alone, I had to write off close to about $600,000. Now the advice that our parents used to give us to say, rent a property, it's an investment. It's wrong advice. It's not always an investment. Sometimes it's a bad investment, a horrible investment. How much money do I need to have to start the property business? You don't need money. Are you comfortable to say how much your business is making? Over a hundred million. Wow. Hi guys. Welcome back again to another episode of Procurement Dialogues. I'm your host, Lerato Sevada. We haven't had another episode in a while, but today we're back. We're here to enjoy a lot happened during the month of September. But you know what? We're back at it. So today I have Dewu Hong Ntwana, who we shot an episode before, but forget about that. He is back. Thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to Procurement Dialogues. No, thank you for having me, Lerato. I hope we can deliver as much punchline and education as we did in the previous one. Yes. I don't like to introduce people that I don't know how to introduce them. Okay. Why don't you know how to introduce me? Because you own so many businesses, you wear so many hats and titles. So it's tough to just say business owner. I'm not going to do justice. Or if I say an entrepreneur and there's many other investors. Maybe you'd rather introduce yourself. No, it's a difficult one. I mean, I'm different things to different people. I think to start off, you know, I'm a child or born, you know, for coming from the township. Yeah. I always say I come from, you know, a black primary school in a black high school. That's why I got it somewhere along the way. Your English doesn't say you went to some luxury school. And interesting enough. I went to Kotelang primary school, Egoadville. And I went to Toa Toa subsequently. And even dropped out of high school in grade 11. Because the situation was bad at home. So I had to go work, you know. So, and actually did my matric, go night school. You know, because now I'd come back and, you know, I still wanted to empower myself and develop myself, you know. Because I think I knew that I wanted to become somebody great in society. Then I've gone to do amazing and great things, you know, in South Africa and in the continent. So today I'm a business rescue and turnaround practitioner. So which I represent COTS, COTS appoint us to come turn around companies that are facing financial struggles. So it could be that. Or even directors or even employees. You know, a lot of people don't know that employees that you employ in your business, they've got so much power. That if ever they want to put you down as a business, they could put you down, you know, as a business. Because as a business rescue practitioner, we represent those that affected people, which is a board of directors or shareholders, you know, employees or unions. Then from there and the COTS, you know, or creditors. So it's really, there's actually creditors, the representative. And when they go to COTS and the COTS is granted that the business can be taken under business rescue, then someone like me will be brought in, you know. So, and we've done amazing stuff in this country, you know, in Namibia. Actually, interesting enough, I got exposed to this space when I was in the UK because I got to live a bit of slant in the UK than the US. And when I came to South Africa, they had just introduced, you know, business rescue. So where else in America, it's called chapter 11, you know. How long ago was this? So that was in 2015, 2016. So maybe let's go chronological because there's some people that are systematic. Is it? Okay. Let me pause you there. Yeah. So you went to high school, done your night school, right? Yeah. You finished and started working. No, no, no. I was, I left, I dropped out of grade 11 to go work. Yeah. Yes. So my first job was actually for an IT company. Yeah. And because I'm kind of myself taught IT, you know, person, I taught myself IT from a book, actually. Okay. So I started fixing local computers, you know, library computers and the likes. So then it happened that I saw an advert in a newspaper. There was a company called, you know, IT Chronicles. They were looking for technicians. So I applied. So, and at the time, I mean, I was still in grade 11, but the situation was really bad, you know? So, and it was another story how I actually even got there. And when I got there and when I was being interviewed, I told them, with the greatest of respect, you guys are asking me difficult questions, which I cannot answer. One thing that I know how to do is to put together a computer. They must give me a machine. Yeah. And to put together, and they decided to put me to the test. And I did, and I was given an opportunity. So I had to really evaluate to say school, work, school, you know, so the situation was bad at home. I couldn't have stayed at school, so I decided to go work so that I can obviously contribute to the situation, you know, at home. So it was really that time. So back then, and afterwards, while I was there, you know, the late Mama Adelaide Tambo, in partnership with social development, they were starting development centers within the townships. So, and coincidentally, at that time, the company I was working for, it was bought by a company called America Online. So they were leaving the country. So they wanted a technician that would leave with. So, and I couldn't qualify to leave because, you know, I remember I didn't have education. So therefore, I had to be dropped. And I went back to Kasi. You know, so now the parents, you must go to school, otherwise you'll end up like him. Oh, you were the example. I was the example. And yeah, so coincidentally, at that time, Mama Adelaide Tambo saw that we started a development center. So then from there, they needed someone to train people, IT, you know. And then you were the perfect person. I was the perfect person. I actually went there. I was shortlisted. It was me with some lady who did computer engineering, and we were both given classes to teach, you know. So I was given the morning class, she was given the afternoon class. So the following day, I took the class that she took the day before, and she'll take the one that I took, you know. So then from there, in order to be able to teach, and those people were the ones that had to determine to say, who's the best teacher, you know. And I was taken up, you know, as their teacher facilitator. I mean, you're a likable guy. Of course, people will say. Is it? You knew your work. No, I think it was really about the fact that I was good at it. And I think I simplified it, you know. So yeah, then within months, I mean, I was a computer center manager, you know. And they actually also sent me to school, I mean, to go do, you know, train a trainer program and assess some moderator programs. So the way I was working, teaching that, so there was a night school as well that was running there. So I decided to say, since it's there, and I had realized from the experience of being dropped when I had an international opportunity because I had no backing, let me rather enroll myself and go to Matric. And coincidentally, you'll be surprised that I went to night school. I was in my Matric class. I was here, my mother was here. I did Matric with my mother. You what? I did Matric with my mother. Wow. How did she feel and what was that like? I mean, that's a very odd combination. Yeah, no, I mean, yes, I think for me, I was actually inspired by her because I was like, you know, that decided to go to school. And then I hear my sitting, you know, so then from the, we actually were in class. So, but now the problem is that sometimes he'll skip classes and she'll be wanting to get homeworks and assignments from me, you know, and stuff. But I mean, interesting, I mean, she actually studied all the way to her MBA. Wow. You know, so which I think was great. Very commendable. So, yeah, because I mean, while I was there, I managed to finish my Matric. So, but now the beauty about it, in fact, it's a good thing we're talking about this. One of the things that people are not aware is that in South Africa, we've got such an amazing educational system. You know, we've got what we call a recognition of prior learning. Yes. Which is RPL. RPL. You know, so now I did that, obviously. And the reason I'm quoting RPL is because fast forward later on, and now when I wanted to go to varsity, you know, so I couldn't qualify for varsity, but then I could apply for RPL, recognition of prior learning. So where else they take all the experience that you've been working over the years, all the certificates that you find, you know, whether you're doing Udemy, you're doing whatever. So I encourage, you know, people to really take on courses to empower themselves because those might come in later. Yes, because those things gave me an entrance to UCT later, you know. That, you know, so. So you're a UCT alumni? Yes, I'm a UCT alumni. And you'd be surprised. I mean, I mean, I did all the way to my MBA. Yeah. You know, which I got to do my investing during COVID. 2019, I lost my mother. I graduated actually 2019, April. So five months later, August, you know, I lost my mom. So, and therefore, one of the things that I wanted to take along for my graduation to UCT, you know, so, but there was no flights. So I couldn't, you know. You know, this woman here, I remember, cause there was two oceans happening in Cape Town. There was conferences. There was all of these things. The flights were fully booked across different airlines. And when I checked driving, I was going to get there after the graduation. Even the bus, it was not going to work. So the only thing that I needed was a flight, you know. And that time UCT was not finding my results. My results had disappeared. And therefore I was not eligible to graduate. So I'm sure almost every day I was calling them, you know, sending emails to say, do you know guys who I am? I'll bring media there. Cause how is it that a reputable university like UCT loses my, you know. You're missing. Yes. And you know, at the time she was a vice chancellor, I managed to get ahold of her email, sent an email. Let me tell you, she made sure that heads rolls, my results were found and I was then eligible to graduate. So that's why I couldn't book flights in time and everything else. So now my mother went to the bedroom to go pray. You know, prayed, prayed, prayed. So she took my laptop back and gave it to me and says, look for a flight. But the flights are fully booked, you know. So why are you making me look for a flight? I said, yeah. I said, look for a flight, you know. And miraculously there was one seat. Available. Available, you know. So I didn't want to take the seat. I'm like, no, let me try to find another seat. Remember I promised you I'm going to go with you for graduation and whatsoever. She says to me, no, because there was one seat available. Go and graduate, you know. Then from the, I'll be there for your next graduation. You know, you'll be there for my next graduation. He says, yeah, you're going to do your MBA, right? God is my witness. I was not going to do MBA. You know, I was not even going to be going that far. So she, I mean, I just agreed to get her off my face, you know. Yeah, and I went to go graduate. And now five months later when she passes, you know, and yeah, it broke me. I even went under depression, you know. Yeah, of course, like a lost dream, you know. A lost dream. Even when you look at my social media, I stopped posting actively 2019. Something in me changed because I think she died with a big part of me, you know. And now I decided to do my MBA because I promised her. So I practically did it in her honor, you know. And yeah, today I'm doing my PhD. You know, hoping to be Dr. T soon, you know. You already started with your PhD? I have already started. I'm on my second year. Wow. Congratulations. I'm so inspired. I'm afraid of doing my MBA. I've already started with my application. But I keep thinking, I think MBA is for intelligent people. Is it? You're also intelligent. What do you want to say? You know, there's that thing, out of my doubt. Is it? And I have to. The journey I'm taking has to take me to it. I can't dodge it. So no, at least you've got an accountable partner. I can hold you accountable. Oh, thank you. You know, and also coach you on research and things like that, yeah. Literally, I started the application with Gibbs. Gains the motivation. Sometimes I feel like I touch a few things. Yeah. Maybe get it on my lap because it's the end of this month. Is it? Yeah. Yeah, no, please do so, definitely. Sure. Submit it. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, it's interesting to know where people come from and what, you know, what kind of creates the person that you are today. Because now we just see the end product. Yes. And you're thinking, you guys move from one business to another. Yeah, no, no, no, no. Gurukari, just miraculously things happen. Yeah, no, no, no. And it doesn't work like that. And sometimes we like claiming to be self-made. I don't believe anybody is self-made. We are made based on the opportunities that someone granted you. Do you understand? So once upon a time, I mean, for me in business, I thought I was, you know, crushing it. Do you understand? And I thought I was making it, you know. But within my skill and as far as my exposure is concerned, because I could pay my bond, you know, and feed myself. Do you understand? And up until I met the founder of Avatar, you know, so who changed the entire game for me, you know, and I mean. So basically, wait, what was your first business? Okay, my first business was IT because that's what I knew. Okay, so you transitioned into it anyway. So yes, because remember, I mean, I was self-taught. So I transitioned into it. I was fixing people's computers, you know, and the likes. Then from there, I got a client that wanted a website. So then I wasn't doing websites. So I went to Zubuziso because I'd heard them on radio talking about doing websites, you know. So we went to go see this client. So coming back, then he asked me, what do you want? What do you want to be when you grow up? You know, I said, I want to be a millionaire by the age of 35. He says, you want to be what? I said, a millionaire by the age of 35. And he says to me, but why do you want to be a millionaire then when you could be a millionaire now? Wow, what a mindset thing. I mean, we don't speak like that, right? Yeah, of course. From the township. It's almost like Igwa at this dream. Exactly, you know. So then from there, obviously, I think with that, for me, it was a mind shift. And one of the key things that he says to me, he says, I'll teach you how to become a millionaire. But I'll first have to teach you my God, you know. And I'm like, no, listen to me. You know how politicians give political credentials? You know, and then I was giving my Christian credentials. Oh no, I'm a chief altar server. Okay, again, I'm doing this and this and that. I want to teach you about how to become intimate with God, you know. And for me, that's why I think I'll forever be indebted to that man, you know. He played a really good role in your life. No, no, he played a critical role in my life. And I mean, the follow up question with that, and he says to me, can you walk into a bank, you know, ask yourself to go attend and fix their computers, you know, or do whatever. I was like, no, I don't. I'll have to walk through a particular brand. There was a particular brand at that time, you know, IT company, this brand and this brand. And he says, you see, that's the problem. I can walk into a bank and offer them services, you know. And, you know, because I don't fear, you know, going into big brands and I don't fear making profit, you know. So those things obviously change. They're obviously modified and shaped. Yes, you know, so and I mean, fast forward later, you know, I mean, made my first million at 23 years of age. I mean, I couldn't beat his record, you know, he made his at 21, you know. It's still difficult to make a million now, at the age of 35. Yeah, no, absolutely. It absolutely is, you know. And I think since then, I've had courage to go to big business. I've had the courage to, and that's why I think came 2014, you know, when I went through my divorce, then from that booked one-way ticket to the UK. I remember you said, hold on, I'm going. Yes, you know, because now I wanted to now recover me and try to find or do whatever, everything else that I've ever wanted to do. So out of interest also for those that sometimes, you know, obviously business is up and down. Correct. And you carry the business. Correct. And divorce and separation is one of the big, big challenges that hardly other people are able to bounce back because of the dip and the depression. At that point when that happened in your life, how many businesses did you own and did you encounter the dip? And how did you come out of it? Okay. So I encountered a big dip. Actually, it was actually one of my biggest blunders. One, I got married young. You know, I don't think I was emotionally matured. I think at the time, the love of my life had, or a person who I thought was the love of my life had gone to get married to someone else, you know, and I think it broke me. So at some point I wanted nothing to do with girls. So now when now my marriage happened, I thought, okay, maybe this is what God wants for me, you know. So, and now one of the key things that was my biggest plan, I was putting my basket and my eggs in one basket, you know, because at the time, I mean, I was running a construction company, you know, cause we had just sold the IT business. So I had a restriction of trade. So I couldn't run an IT business. So now we're running a construction company, which was actually what introduced me to property. We're running an events company, you know, a digital and training marketing company. I think at the time I was running about five businesses, you know. So, but now I was running all of those businesses through one entity, you know. So now, and now the problem is the minute one entity is in trouble, you know, all the other entities are affected in it. They're all under the same umbrella, do you understand? So, and I think that's why right now, you know, I'm a corporate governance specialist. You know, I help people structure companies and structure their affairs, you know, and, you know, protect their assets. So, which is something that obviously I'm passionate about. And I think mainly based on the experience that I encountered, you know. So then from there, obviously when I got an opportunity then now to go to the UK, and obviously I'm getting the one-way ticket. And now I didn't know anything about immigration, but I'm supposed to be there for three months. Then from there, you must leave, you know, so that your passport can be extended. And obviously I couldn't apply for work payment at the time, you know, because obviously I didn't get a job, you know. And part of that, I've been being good at what I do. And I think starting introducing myself, knocking on doors, you know. That's why again, there's no someone who's self-made, because someone opened up a door for me, you know. I believe in that too. You must be a door opener for other people. Yes, do you understand? And that's why right now, when God has favoured you, you know, right now, I mean, now you are doing a podcast. You are teaching people how to tender. You are actually unlocking doors for other people. You know, it's something that I think if we could all go with that mentality, we could really change and transform a life of a black child. Do you understand? To understand, to say, life is bigger than you, you know. And there's more to you than actually just wanting to serve you. And one of the things, I mean, last of last year, we were launching a fund. I said to some of the investors that are there, I mean, big shot people and some of my friends, I would say, if ever you've got wealth, and your wealth is just you and your family, you're broke. Do you understand? Because I believe that God doesn't bless us just for our family. He blesses us to become a blessing to others. Do you understand? And that's why for me, in the midst of whatever God does for me, to say, how can I become a blessing to someone else? How can I become a blessing to other people? Do you understand? So that obviously, that, I think, becomes a key solution for all of us. And I mean, my stint in the UK was short, because I mean, it's cold there. And the regulatory market in the UK is quite different. Then went to the US. The US was favorable. Started in New York, then from there, settled in California. So what were you doing this entire time traveling? What was your thing? Okay, in this entire traveling, you know, we actually, at the time, I mean, we had partnered with Bread Essay to say South Africa is open for business. So therefore, I became almost like a linkage center for businesses that want to come into the continent. You know, so from there... Almost like an agent. Yes, I was more like an agent. You know, there's a guy, there's a guy which you know, he's dating one of the prominent celebrities. And he said, if you don't know where to start as a business, be an agent. Correct. Global companies, be an agent and open. He owns, I think, 96 entities. Yeah. And he's a global agent for many different. Yes. So I just wanted to point that out. No, no, absolutely. And it's something that we as South Africans, we don't want to cross borders. Do you know how much money is in the African continent on its own? Just as a middle person. You know, let me tell you a quick story of a friend that, you know, I said that went to, I mean, in Nigeria, and you know, Nigeria, I mean, the cement market, Ali Kodangote is the one that has, I would say, monopolated or dominating the industry. You know? So now there was a big development that needs to take place. They just needed cement. You know? Do you know what they're there for? He got an order. He went there, he says, no, we can supply you with cement. I will bring it down from South Africa and whatsoever. It's fine. No, cool. Well, now we need cement because we need to deliver within timelines. You know? And they gave him an order. Then let me tell you, he had no company, nothing. He came back to South Africa. We registered. That's what you realize on money talks. Yeah. You know? Fast, fast. I think within a space of three days, you know, we had a registered company, we had tax registered, we had vet registered, you know, and already even export and import license, you know, registered. And that first business, you know, you'll be surprised. I mean, the first business that he made, he's never traded or did anything, was 90 million. You know? And because, I mean, I mean, they do in U.S. dollars. Yeah, U.S. dollars. So, and just facilitating first business. 90 million. So, one good business. You know? So, yes. You know, and right now, there's a lot of things that are happening within the African continent. There's a lot of infrastructure projects that are coming into the continent. That's why, I mean, right now we're building, you know, an Africa's boutique, you know, fund. And because we want to finance businesses within the African continent or businesses in the country that want to do business in the continent. So, can I, I want to put you on the spot a bit. Yeah. Okay. Tell me, how did you start the property business? Yeah. And the fund business? Okay. Because, you know what? Just take it from a SMME mindset, right? To say, guys, I'm just struggling to get a hundred thousand order. Yeah. I have a dream like a million and 10 million in the likes. Okay. How did you start? And be honest in terms of, what did you do practically? Okay. I'm one of the most honest people. So, yeah. So, I think, I remember I said I was in the construction space. Yes. So, now, I mean, I was coming from an IT background. I knew nothing about construction, you know? So, and what happened is in my travels, I met a Jew businessman at some conference, you know, and they were into alternative building technology. So, introduced myself to them to say, this is what I do. I'm from South Africa. And, you know, obviously, I mean, at the time, even now, I mean, I've got a good reputation. Most of my story is publicized out there, you know? So, I'd like to bring, you know, to partner with them, you know, to expand this within the country, you know? So, and they had just moved into South Africa. And obviously, one, being immigrants or being foreigners, obviously, they don't have local footprint. So, I've always tried linking people and linking things, you know? So, therefore, to say, I want to expand there. So, I actually wanted to become almost like the Coral Brick of alternative technology, you know? So, yeah, so then they had this technology that they imported from Australia that they could do rapid building. So, it means we could build an RTP house in three days, you know? So, therefore, I wanted to adapt to that technology. So, therefore, offered to go into business with them, which it was good. Then, obviously, because of me being a local boy, I could get into government knock and do this and that, do you understand? So, now, but at the time, you know, even now, South Africa doesn't adapt easily to change, you know? So, and that's why you find in that business, we made more money outside the country than we did in the country, you know? So, in the country, we did mine with those that could take a chance on us, you know? So, and you'll be surprised, I took a learnership with Egoron Municipality. Okay. A construction learnership. Okay. You know, and at the time, I had just gotten married. And imagine now getting into a learnership where you're earning a thousand five. Practically, it's a stipend. It's petrol money, you know? So, then it increased to 3,000, increased to 5,000. So, we're teaching you around construction. Yes. But for me, the key thing, I mean, there's people that the minute they discovered how much we're gonna get paid, they dropped out, you know? So, and with that, it taught me a powerful lesson to say there's two kinds of jobs. There'll be a job that pays you, but kill you, you know? But I said, there'll be a job that would not pay you, but that would grow you. So, you need to be able to differentiate between the two. And with the level of unemployment that is happening these days, do you know the amount of people that could come to us, me and you, or any other small business out there to say, go buy experience? And you hardly find that now. And you hardly find that. In fact, in our time, the 80s gang, we used to know volunteering was a thing. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, literally, I mean, speaking to that, that's actually what, you know, got me out there, you know? Because you know what I did? I went to some of the big companies, you know, like, okay, I don't wanna mention brands, like beverage companies and whatsoever. And at the time, when I was running the marketing company, I was offering to run a campaign for them for free. Tell me who doesn't like freebies, you know? And I mean, right now, I love freebies. I'm sure you also do, you know? And for me, it was that, so that I could just get a reference letter, you know? And imagine now, then on the reference letter, obviously, they'll never say, oh, this was a volunteer, this was free. It was worth that. Yes. And right now, me, when I go to another big client, coming with a reference number, you know, yeah, go whichever brand, whether it's a telecommunication brand or whatever, you know I did this and this for so and so. Yes. Do you understand? So back on peace, I know what they want. And right now, even if they were to call, they wouldn't deny, because I did that for them. Do you understand? The only difference is that they didn't have to pay for them, because I was doing it for free. Yeah. Do you understand? But now when I come here, you know, then from there, I start charging. Do you understand? And for that gave me credibility with big clients or with big brands, you know, because I was coming with this now, letters with big logos, you know, to say I've done this for them. So therefore, it means you're a big business, you know? And at the time, I wasn't even big business, you know? So then, yeah, coming back then to the story. So now, with that, we started doing live projects, you know, with agrarian, you'd get a project, whether you're doing roads or you're building toilets, or you're doing this in the cell. I was exposed to that, you know? And only find, I mean, at the time, I bought my first property in Guatemala in Springs, you know? So I bought my first property. Then from there, it was a question to say, you make all this money, but you don't know where to make it. You don't know where to spend it, you know? So, and, you know, a particular man of God, Pastor Ntuli, you know, actually liked me. We met, he liked me. And he was in property, you know? And I asked him to say, you know, how do we get into property and whatsoever? I remember I started looking at expensive properties and the likes, and he said, Sumi, no, for you to get it or to start in this space, you don't need to look at big properties. Because you know why? People that buy big properties usually buy them cash because they've got the money for it, you know? At the time, I didn't know, and I didn't understand it. But now, obviously, at the circles that are moving in, we buy houses cash, do you understand? And big size properties, do you understand? So therefore, there's a lot, there's few people that are getting born, yeah, 30 million, yeah, 30,000. Now you're getting born, yeah, 100,000, do you understand? So half of the time, people that are operating though, they buy them cash. So therefore, he says, you need to look at the entry market, you know? And his entry market, he was saying, no, man, I'm looking at entry market and immigrants. And because those people would rather sacrifice a roof over their head, you know? I would rather sacrifice food to have a roof over their head. Yes, and he says, they will definitely pay you in advance, you know, or pay you ahead. Like you said, they are reliable, you know? Because remember, they don't have anywhere to stay, you know? And he says to me, that's what he was doing, I mean, at the time, you know? And I don't know, that man has got multiple properties, you know, and- So would you say he helped you build the property? Yes, and he's one of those people that whenever I needed training, I'd give him a call, you know, or I'd go to him, do you understand? And he's going to a sheriff auction, and then I'll go to the auction with him, you know, and stuff. But because of this, I'm a risk taker. So there's things that then I wanted to do first, then I'll, you know, educate myself. I've always liked books, you know? I've always like come to think of it. I've always wanted to empower myself, you know? And right now, empowering yourself, it doesn't necessarily mean going to school. It means sit on Google. I mean, these days, we've got AI. We sit on AI, sit on YouTube. YouTube is such a free university that a lot of people neglect, do you understand? So, and started then, you know, flipping. So, now you are into the business, right? Yes. Let's talk of mistakes that you did. Okay, so, yeah. Either in all your businesses or even in the property. Okay, so I've done mistakes in a whole lot of businesses, you know, I'm still making mistakes even today. So now one of the key mistakes that I make in the business, even with my first property, falling in love. Like love love? I love how you faced it. I got a falling in love. Like love love or a different love. So I run, you know, I mean, I run property seminars and coaching on how to teach people how to, and I always say there's rules in property. The first rules, do not fall in love. So, and mean falling in love. Romantic love? No, no, no. Okay. You know, love in general, because the minute you fall in love, the mistakes that's happening. So the love that I'm referring to, it's falling in love in terms of loving that property that you buy. So now I bought this property in the township, semi-detached houses. One, already that's a mistake. Two, in an area then from there, that was very low in that community. Do I say that now what I did, converted this house into a mini townhouse. When you are inside, you think you decide a townhouse. When you come out, you remember all kinds of people. Yeah. Do you understand? So you know, you know, the six by six ceramic tiles at the time, they were not even, you know, they were not even think because they were expensive, but because I fell in love with this property, it was my first property, you know, and I over-invested. Guess what? Fast forward years later, when I now want to sell this property, you know what people were saying, you know what, if we could take this property, or a property, you know, or Cosmo or wherever, you know, you could easily get 700,000, 800,000 for this property, but for where it is, you won't even make 300,000. They're looking at the area. Do you understand? And also the investment you put in. Yes. So now that was a big mistake, you know, falling in love. So therefore, because when you start falling in love with property or with this particular property, you start wanting to set up this property for yourself. You know, we're not, and forget already, you need to sell this property tomorrow. So now set up this property with a consumer or an end user in mind, you know. And now when I go, went back to my mentor, you know, Pastor Ntunde, he said to me, no, you invested. He says, you know, he calls me man of God. And you know, man of God, sometimes some of the target market, or maybe we target, you know, and that's why I realized the biggest mistake. Sometimes people just want a roof. You know, I mean, today I offer quality products, but now I've learned to offer quality products at an affordable price. And most important, the recycling. Do you understand? Some of, whether it's building material, whether it's things that could be reusable and still have beautiful units or rental units that you can offer. So then over-investing, I think it's one of the issues and one of the biggest mistakes that people make, you know. And two, area is important, you know, people buy in wrong areas, you know. So let's look for bad properties in good areas. Okay. Bad properties in good areas. Good properties, bad properties in good areas. Because those ones will always grow in value, you know, because right now, believe it or not, there's areas in South Africa that depreciate in value that do not appreciate, you know, let me repeat that. There's areas in South Africa that depreciates in value and that do not appreciate. Do you understand? So right now, the advice that our parents used to give us to say, regular property, it's an investment. It's wrong advice. It's not always an investment. Sometimes it's a bad investment, a horrible investment. Do you understand? So that's why obviously, you need to come into that mindset. I always say, get into the space of property with an investor mindset, you know. So how much would you say you've lost in rent value due to these mistakes? Millions. And let me make a simple example. Last year alone, I had to write off close to about $600,000. A write off. Through a property deal or a different business? Through property deals. Bad debts written off. Not bad debts. What is it? Bad investment written off. Do you understand? And now you could imagine, today I've got the privilege to sit here and say, I've written off $600,000. But that's someone's house. That's two properties. That's three properties. Do you understand? So there's people that, the bank declines them for $600,000. So right now I'm able to say, I made a mistake and I need to write it off. Do you understand? So, and that's where you realize, even at this, I mean, the size of transactions that I do now, there's still costly mistakes that you do. So you always learn every day. That's why, obviously, one of the key things, it's important to have mentors, you know, around you and to have teams, you know, around you that would be able to do proper due diligence, that would be able to do this and that. Do you understand? So I got you. So before we move on to the other side of the business, the business rescue one, I want us to move to a conversation. I just want to ask then, for someone who's doing property businesses or interested in property business, what are some of the council's association requirements? Just on the fundamental ones. Okay. Regulatory. So from a regulatory point of view, depending what space you want to play in property, one thing that I want to say to your viewers is that property is huge. Property is big. Let me put it in numbers. The property industry in the country, in South Africa right now, is worth close to seven trillion. Let me repeat that. Seven trillion. The property industry in the country right now, it's worth close to seven trillion. And do you know what's the sad part? Us black people, we don't even own or run 10% of that. Do you understand? And you know what's even more sadder? To say even from a JSE listed companies, we don't even have 10% of women businesses, black women businesses that are operating. Representing in the, or rather, market share in the space. And now you could imagine to say, even from a JSE, if ever there's just generally not women making up 10% of the space, even more when it comes to black women, where are we sitting? In a seven trillion space. Zero point something, something, something. Absolutely. So, and right now in that seven trillion, there's different space of property. We've got the residential, we've got commercial, we've got industrial, we've got training strategic, we've got farming, which is agriculture. I mean, strategic parcels is where telecommunication company will come in. So we'd like how your company's positioned. We'd like to put a transmitter here, we'll pay you a rental for the next 30 years or for the next whatever. And another thing is, look at your special planning for the area. There's people that buy property. I'll make an example. I mean, one of my business is based in Bumalang. I know a family that is buying properties, strategic properties. And guess what? Coincidentally, those properties are underground. There's mining happening. And that's a good one because they know they're going to be moved. Let me tell you, I know a particular mining company right now that is trying to move them, but they're not moving because they're not agreeing on an amount. And guess what? The property that he bought less than 2 million. As we speak, they're speaking an evaluation of close to 70 million. Should ask for them to move. I've heard of a lady, I don't know if I told you this, who bought a property behind airport. It was just an open land. She stayed with it, Aigambe Lafella for like three or four years. And then she was giving this testimony at church. And then the airport was expanding. That's backside, we have extra space and whatnot. And they had to move them and they wanted the land. And you know how much? She's bought it for 150,000 apparently. And Uruguay is taking 6 million. Listen to that, yeah. So, and right now, as we speak, do you know in Joburg, from a special planning, Gauteng is expanding. And Gauteng is expanding, the strategic properties that they're going to need to remove. Right now, the plans are readily available. Find those plans, check on where those properties are. Where do you find the plans? City of Johannesburg. You just go and say, you go, you introduce yourself, or you know, what are the, you can even ask, or what are the plans coming up in municipality? Where are the next development? That's why you go, there's a special, every municipality has got a special planning department that is focused with speciality. You know? Yes. You know, and in that, which there's town planning that is involved. Oh, then you know, there's going to be a mall. And some of these plans, these are the plans that are 20, 30, 50 years old. Do you understand? So government has not executed yet. But the time will come. By the time will come. Gotcha. So if they're coming and you're the owner, do you understand? You are banking some big cash. Sure. Do you understand? So right now, and I mean, and other, I mean, strategic land parcels, you know, land parcels where portal stations could be built, you know? I mean, one of the lands that I bought, we had an oil company that wanted to set up there, you know? So, and right now we decided, well, now we want to do environmental studies. We want to do this and that. So that by the time they come, no, you don't need to do environmental studies. There are environmental studies. There's this and that. Do you understand? So therefore it's just ready to hit ground. Do you understand? So then from there, it will be up to you to say, do I build it, lease it out to an oil company or just sell it outright? Last question. How much money do I need to have to start the property business? You don't need money. So how do I own the property without having money? Yeah. Right now, remember, let me make an example. You know, you see, that's why people must pay me. You see why I get paid a lot of money? I get you. So now you don't need money to get into the property space. That's why I said property space is vast. You know, let me make an example. I'm a developer and investor, you know? Do you know what some of my students and some of the people that I've taught, you know, you could sit on property 24, you could sit on private property, you know, and look at properties, you know, that are going on to the market. But obviously if you know what you're looking for, then you're able to choose properties within good areas, you know, that could, that have a development potential. That is one. And two, even on the very same property 24, you know, even on Google, you know, Facebook market, there's people that are selling land that are selling property. Give me 50,000, give me 20,000. No, some of them are real. But one thing that I would say is that do not do anything without a lawyer, you know, and do not touch any property that doesn't have a title deed. Do you understand? So, but obviously with new communities that are coming up, some of them, they don't have a title deed, but they've got special payment. But now the only problem is that with it, sometimes they sell those things, but then from there, that special title, it's in his name. By the time they issue title, did they issue out in him? And that person has died. Do you understand? And so, or you, they know where to be found. Can people sell RDPs? People selling RDPs all the time. But no, I could, apparently they need to get to ADS or something like that. Yes, yes. No, no, no. People are selling RDPs. That's why everything government is trying to keep that because people, government gave people properties or houses because they needed them. But others obviously are selling them. I mean, right now you can get RDPs as little as 280,000 this day and age, depending where it is. Do you understand? And ever build a nice RDP? And you can, others do it up to half a million. Do you understand? So now you could read about it. That's why I always say, do not touch a property that doesn't have a title deed, you know, unless if you are a risk taker. Quick story. You know, Petoria, that's why I don't want to give too much detail in terms of locations. So this particular place, there was these properties, you know, Mohunalingbo, Konjikin, the club, the DJ that died, Konjikin man? Somebody. Somebody, yes. Angara, what's his club? I don't know. Ayep-Yep, yes. Angara Ayep-Yep, before it became the club, the other side, Ayep-Yep started on the strain of these houses and where they were specializing with traditional foods. One friend took one of these properties. Those properties, at some point, they were abandoned. Went, stayed in that property, took that property, converted it into a business, you know, alcohol, opened up a menu, whatever, and was selling, I think was selling there close to eight, nine years, you know. And let me tell you, that place made him a million. Boom, later municipality comes and knocking to say, but this is municipality property, you know, and they cannot just evict him, you know, out of that property. He's been there for eight years, you know. So guess what? He had to be paid, you know, automatically for him to, you know what I'm saying? But there's people like that, that have courage to do those things. Do you understand? I mean, I wouldn't encourage it. Do you understand? But that's what I'm saying, there's a lot of space, you know, in terms of what you could do in property. You could look for deals. You could even sell deals, um, you know, to, I mean, per deal, to find a deal that is good. And you can even negotiate, um, you know, a deal, get an offer to purchase, you know, there's what we call, a back-to-back deal to say, you sign an offer from here, this offer winner, you don't need to get financing. You can advertise the, the, the property. Then from the ones who get the offer, the person is the one that gets born. So then it registers in your name for two minutes, then it registers to the new person's name, do you understand? And with that, you can make a bit of profit. Then from the build a kitty, do you understand? So, or else you can even partner with people like me to say, listen, I've got a deal. I just need capital, you know, but obviously you cannot be unrealistic because me, that's putting money. I'm the one that's taking the most risk, right? And so therefore, whether you're making 10% or 20% out of that deal, we'll do a few arguments. That's true. You see, but the problem is with us. We would like operating in isolation. We're not collaborative. Got it. Do you understand? And right now, somebody for them to think that I'll have to pay this man to teach me or to mentor me on how to do this. Do you understand? Yeah. No, I'll do this on go or whatever. And that's why right now, you know, I see these, these, eh, there's all these coaches everywhere. And that's why, if what I share, it's a story behind the story. It's things that you don't find on Google. True. Do you understand? So yeah, if we have run out of time, because we, and you can talk and talk and talk, but in five minutes, I just want us to quickly talk about your business rescue. What do you guys do? And because a lady, I know of one, one lady, I know of, okay. She and her husband was owning franchises and COVID happened. A lot of things happen like in other businesses, unfortunately, they have dip. So they went for business rescue. And fortunately, that company literally kicked them out of the business. Which company? That company. The business rescue participants. So obviously at the time she found out, she didn't know how these people basically took over, not just give them access to manage their accounts and all of that, but they removed them from the CIPC, removed them. They even changed locks. They basically took the business away from them. So he was a business rescue. Why is that legal? Okay. Um, it's very much legal. Um, I sit on one of the boards for, um, business rescue practice, which is the turnaround management association of South Africa. So, um, yeah. So what happens is with business rescue, one of the key things that we must note, it is legislated, um, process before when you owe somebody money, you would go straight into liquidation, you know, um, or you'd, you know, get liquidated. So if you're unable to pay, so therefore because of international markets, remember, we're also adapting as a third world country. So therefore the government introduced, um, a process called business rescue process, which with business rescue, we saving the business, not the company. So with that, so what that means is that if it means I need to break your businesses into pieces, you know, um, I'll break it into pieces. Then sell its asset or sell it off so that it's able to make money. So one of the key thing, our legislation or our constitution, you know, across whether it's liquidation to whether it's business risk, our constitution protects the right of employees, you know, or the rights of laborers. Do you understand? So now that's why obviously laborers or trade unions are affected persons. That's why your credit has people that give you money, you know, they become what you're affected. Yes. It can affect a person, you know, or you as a shareholder, you could do a voluntary process. So I take it in that case, they did a voluntary process, but now the problem is, therefore you see now other people in that process, maybe they would have gotten someone like me to come educate them to support the process or to even see through to say, are you being treated fairly? Because right now, um, some of their business ratio processes, realities, they not fit, you know, and some of the business rescue processes, you know, reality is us rescue practitioners take advantage. Apparently it's the same thing as debt review guys, the manager in the... No, that's not true. It's, it's far different. Like the level of exploiting of this business. Yes. The level of exploiting. So now I think what, what, what is equal with debt review? When you go under debt review, um, you know, debt review, they're able to freeze your, your debt, right? And get into an arrangement. So with the business rescue process, the minute you come into business rescue process, every contract that you have freezes with immediate effect. Do you understand? And right now the power or the, the constitution empowers me to say, I could fire you as a direct and shareholder of the business, especially if you're causing harm to the business. So who owns the directorship? So remember, I guess it's a legislated process. So therefore it means the constitution or legislation empowers us to take that business from you and remove you as a director, if not. But the idea is we rescue that business with you in it. So now once obviously, um, you've lodged a training for business rescue process, then from your given a certain days, you need to have the first meeting, you know, uh, of creditors. So therefore everyone else that you, you owe, I need to have a meeting with them so that they're able to prove. And we're able to affirm to say, how much do they actually, or how much does the business actually owe them? You know, because even from a settlement point of view, you settle according to priority. Okay. And remember as well with me coming in, I also become your creditor because I'm good. You don't have money to pay me. So the business is going to pay me. So therefore I'm able to also invoice. So basically I'm just selling my business. Essentially it's basically selling my business. No, you're not really selling your business, but you're trying to save your business, you know, but unfortunately other people, they save their business with them, exited the business or having been exited. And the problem is that existing doesn't need your consent because the minute I come in, the South African courts empowers me to make decisions that are in the best interest of this business, you know? So that's why right now it's lawyers that are in business rescue practitioners. It's accountant, um, you know, that are business rescue practitioners and senior business executives. Do you understand? So those are the people that are able to become busy. You cannot just take someone from the street to become a rescue because you can as well be personally liable to say the way you handle this business is so wrong that you can do whatever, do you understand? And there's amazing businesses. I mean, SAA today, you know, has gone through profitability for the first time in how many years because of rescue. Do you understand? So, I mean, Eskom now has gone into profitable after how many years. So reality is there's rescue and turnaround practitioners like myself that are doing amazing to save jobs and contribute to the economy. Do you understand? But it's unfortunate from a small business point of view, we do not understand this process. And that's why we're able to take advantage. You say, if it means, you know what? We've got social media today. We've got, you know, internet. If it means reach out to somebody who's in expect to say, I want to get into this process. How can I best handle it? Do you understand? I mean, how can I best deal with this? So it's one of those things, unfortunately. Yeah. Me and you can talk indefinitely. Yeah. I think this business rescue one is a different conversation altogether. No, definitely. I think it's a different conversation. Yeah. Maybe let's have, let's have it at another day. So then from the, we'll speak about business risk and liquidation, because remember if your business fail, we fail to rescue your business, we liquidate it. Yeah. So then what does that mean for you? You know, as the founder, what does that mean for your assets? You know, there's people that are losing homes. There's people that are losing cars, people that are losing pensions because of being misinformed, you know, and it's things like that. That's where obviously as well, how can you best structure your affairs? So that when you find yourself in this, you don't find yourself on the streets. I understand. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing today. You gave us a piece of you, who you are, where you come from, how you build a business. So are you comfortable to say how much your business is making? You've exited the millionaire stage. No, no, no. I know a long time ago. Wow. Guys, what an inspiration from a guy who comes from No, go wide. Wideville. Davidson. And thank you for sharing your insights with us. Yeah. I appreciate you and have a good day. No, no. Thank you very much for, for having me and yeah, good luck with the podcast and everything that you've done. The amazing work that I think you're creating out there. Thank you. We must speak about the tenders one time already, because we started off in that space. No, you're going to come for the second episode. No, definitely looking forward to it. Sure. Thank you so much, guys. This is where we wrap it up.