This Calculator Exposes Whole Life Insurance’s Real Value | with Chris Naugle

The infinite banking concepts is a process. Yes, they include the whole life insurance policy because it makes it more efficient, but it doesn't have to be included to have the infinite banking concept work. There's many people out there that are like, what's the least amount of insurance can I get? Oh, half a million dollars. Are you serious? The disrespect that you're putting on your name. The whole life has been bastardized so badly, it's just hard to make it popular again. If you could give your dollars more jobs without taking on more risk, could you get better outcomes? Some people. There's no good. There's no good. You would. Use flash. No asset checks all these boxes. When I'm talking to people, I usually give life insurance a yellow checkmark, but I don't want to lose credibility with people. But I think you're wrong having that be yellow. So check this out. We're taking all the benefits that are green into our calculator. The calculator is now taking that benefit and bumping up the rate of return. So let's just do this in real time. I'll let you run the numbers. What do you want the tax rate to be? I want to talk from just a pure mathematical standpoint. I would be better off taking the four percent, taking the additional two percent that I would have paid the insurance company, not me. I would have more money in that scenario. I could prove you wrong. No, mathematically, every day. You can't because this is like pure math. Chris Noggle, no introduction needed, bro. Welcome back to The Better World Show. Hey, it's an honor. Thanks for having me back. So there's a lot of things we could talk about. We could talk about infinite banking. We could talk about arbitrage. We could talk about buying cars. I had a great conversation with Mr. Burr and also Brent recently about the car conversation. I also built a calculator that I think is pretty cool that I would love to show you before it hits the public and get your get your thoughts. I know I've, again, had you on multiple times define infinite banking. And then I want to talk about technology, because I find that if we don't have a clear definition, we can talk about all these things, but then people can argue about how you actually define things. Yeah, the definition is simple. It's a process of taking back the banking functions in your life. In other words, how we give up our banking functions every single day, because that's what we're taught to do. We make money, we deposit it in the bank. When we need money, we borrow back from the bank. It's just the process of taking that back, taking control of those functions back. It's all it is. It's simple. So how does whole life insurance play a role in that in that function? You know, I sometimes have to tell people that, you know, the whole life policies, despite and I want to preface, especially designed whole life policy, it's not an off the shelf whole life. I think people give it too much value and people glorified it a little bit too much. If you ask me, I think it's slightly better than what you could do with a bank account, you know, or a high yield bank account. The one differential that I will say that makes whole life the chosen one for the infinite banking concept, you know, and it's not our Nelson Nash because he said whole life is the best. It's far more fundamental than just saying, oh, this person said it's the best and did the studies on it. It comes down to two main things. The whole life insurance policy and just the way that whole life works is one of the only vehicles on earth that can allow you to earn an uninterrupted compounding interest while still using the money to solve other problems in your life. So that's fundamentally number one. But number two, and hopefully this reaches, you know, the majority of the people listening is I care about my family. And when I'm gone and I know I won't be here for a long period of time, just like all of us, we have, we're here on earth for a very short period of time and then we go home. But while we're here, I think every single person owes it not just to themselves, but to their family and to society, to leave the world and their family in a better place. And that is what whole life insurance does. And that is what whole life insurance does the most efficient way possible, because it can never, ever fail unless the person, the policyholder fails himself. Let me let me talk about those two points. I appreciate you mentioning those two points. And those two points that you mentioned make it better than a high yield savings account or other other tools or assets that you could use when you're practicing the process of becoming your own banker. And, you know, I love the whole, like, if you love your family and I've been convicted about that recently, bought a bunch of life insurance recently. And I talked to Brent about this just because convertible term, by the way, just to like, just get more insurance for a peer protection standpoint. And you know that I own a bunch of term insurance, right? I think we both love the idea of human, and this is what I'm going to get to in a second. Yeah, of course, loving our families, protecting them is great. But then also just from like unemotionally, if you're looking at a plan and you're just unemotional and you're thinking you're playing chess and you have different chess pieces and not all pieces move the same. And if you are looking at your financial life, your ability to earn is by far your greatest asset. Absolutely. So we insure our cars. Some people insure their cars, even if, you know, like they'll go crazy with how they insure their cars. People would insure their homes because why wouldn't you? And yet when we're looking at your financial life, many people, including myself, were massively disrespecting the number one asset by a long shot. And so even like we could do the whole love your family legacy, blah, blah, blah. And we also could just say purely from a greed standpoint, purely from a pride standpoint, purely from an efficiency standpoint, wouldn't it be dumb to not insure your greatest asset? Like if if you had a money printing machine that was cranking out money and had upside to crank out more, you would put as much insurance on that thing as you possibly could. I think where it gets a little bit weird is you may not benefit because when that machine breaks down, you might not be the one that benefits from that. But I find that if we just untie yourself from that, it becomes really obvious. And yet there's many people out there that are like, what what's the least amount of insurance can I get? Oh, half a million dollars, a million dollars. And I want to just be like, guys, I know this makes me sound like a salesperson, but a million dollars. Are you serious? What like the disrespect that you're putting on your name? Like, you know, I know I'm going off on that point, but like you're like that's I that's really hit home for me recently. Anything that you want to say about that? Yeah, a lot. You know, I come across just thousands and thousands of people, you know, just because of the size. And, you know, here's the one thing I will say, and this is a shame. We've evolved as a society into a very self-centered, greed induced level of thinking. And to answer your question, that sole thing I just said is exactly why people think that way. And let's go back to insuring cars and houses. People would not insure their cars if they weren't required to in order to drive. People would not insure their house in most cases if they weren't required to buy the bank. They took the mortgage again. They're not in control. So they're they're mandated. They're required to buy those insurances. Otherwise, I think most people wouldn't because they're just I don't know the full psychological answer to this. But people just don't give much of a ---- about anyone but themselves. And they in most cases are not trying to leave the world in a better place or their family in a better place, which is a crying shame. And listen, that's none of the folks listening to this podcast or listening to my podcast. But there is a large percentage of the population that literally they won't admit it, but that's how they go through their life. And their actions speak louder than their words, because if their actions were true to what their words were, they would all have life insurance. They would all value their lives, their income earning potential and protecting that they would value all these things. They would buy car insurance not because they have to, but because they just should. It's just a smart thing to do and logical for that matter. And the same thing comes back to your life. So when we look at our lives, like we just I think a lot of people just they don't think they're ever going to die or they think they're going to die. But they're like, oh, when I'm when I'm gone, I'm gone. I'm not I don't care. You know, I'm gone. So that that is pure greed. And that is just plain out selfish. And if you think if you think multiple generations, it becomes really clear. But yeah, it requires grandparents. We're not like that, just so you know, like you go back to like the 40s, 50s, 60s. There was so much emphasis on a family having life insurance. I mean, listen, I know I'm speaking or preaching the choir here. The people listening to this are like, yeah, my grandparents bought me a policy. You know, my grandparents bought my parents policies and made them pay for it the second they started working. Of course they did. Because why wouldn't you teach your kids that? Why wouldn't you help your kids set up that way? But in today's society, do we see that? No, we see a bunch of people saying, oh, that's the worst place you can put your money. That's a stupid idea. Like in a Will Rogers, I say it all the time, but he nailed it. The biggest problem with people isn't what they don't know. It's what they think they know that just ain't so. It's it's selfishness. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you do the third generation test and say like in anything is starting this business is investing in this thing is doing this decision. How does this affect my children's children? I do think we would have different perspectives and make different decisions. Chris, I want to share my screen here. This has been a recent epiphany that I've had. And you and this is just going off of your other thing that you mentioned when you talked about, you know, earning and using and just want to walk through this in real time with you. So there's a couple of keys to better. You could make more. So obviously we can both agree if you just make more money, that's that's a key to just being better off financially. You could save more, which that's part of the power of the infinite banking concept is purely take a life insurance out of it. You're creating a system that captures and creates processes to keep more of money. And so there's nothing magical like when Brent talks about, you know, paying off the debt. Well, he he actually had to delay gratification. He he was motivated by some of the the shiny objects, but he still had to save more. So saving more is key. Getting higher returns. If you can earn 12 percent over eight percent over a long period of time, that difference is big. But then the thing that I have like this new the new thing is like, OK, you could help people make more. You can help people save more. You can help people get more rate returns or and and or you can give their their same dollars more jobs. And it's kind of obvious to say, like, if you could give your dollars more jobs without taking on more risk, could you get better outcomes? Some people. There's no good. There's no good. You would. Well, potentially. I mean, I'll play devil's advocate with you. You and I, you give us control and liquidity. We'll make more. You give half the America more control and liquidity. They'll go gamble it or spend it. So I don't disagree with you, but that's an extra like when I asked the Ted Benna, who discovered the 401k, what he loved most about the 401k, he talked about restricting and having it hard for people to self-sabotage. I laughed inside because I'm like, that's the exact reason why I hate the 401k. Right. So it is interesting perspective. I do agree with you when it comes to our perspective. So this is what's interesting. These are two phones. You have one phone that's like pretty much you can get for free. I mean, you have another phone that's a lot more expensive. They're both phones, but it's kind of a joke. They both can call, I guess. But one phone does so many more things. And it's just clear that it's like it's it's yeah, we're calling them phones. We're almost disrespecting the iPhone by calling it a phone. And and so the idea would be like, of course, like our our phone is not an investment because you're not looking at a statement saying, oh, what rate of return am I getting? But it's it's clear to the person that's like we appreciate efficiency. That's why even in third world countries, when they don't even have water, clean water, a lot of kids are walking around with smartphones that not only is that messed up, but what that tells you is we we we as a world love efficiency. And so like for me, I'm like, OK, we we get it. We're not riding horse and buggies anymore. Of course, we take airplanes when we can. We we use AI. We use phones. So like we could argue that maybe phones are destroying society, but we all we ultimately get to our core efficiency. And yet we disrespect it in some areas. And so the two questions I have is how many jobs are your dollars doing for you? And then how well are those jobs doing? And this this again, I've never shared this. You're the first person that's seeing these slides. So I want to get your perspective. But then, like, let's take insurance out of it. Checking account versus savings. There's difference. That's why a lot of people have both both people. There's values to a checking account and there's values to a savings account. And there's when you look at a brokerage versus a Roth, I'm just to be clear, I'm a fan of, you know, utilizing Roths when you can. You know, it's not like you can put hundreds of thousands of dollars to a Roth chassis, but pro Roth over here versus just a straight up brokerage. And why? Because Roths give more checks than brokerage account. Typical investment versus real estate. We have a lot of clients that love real estate. Why do they love real estate? When set up and use properly, your real estate potentially gives you more benefits than a typical investment. That's why when set up and use properly, you can get taxed benefits. You can use leverage to acquire that. It can create cash flow and it can also appreciate. And because of that, that's why there's trillions of dollars in real estate and even like traditional insurances. Usually you buy a traditional insurance to protect one thing. And so the idea is like even debit cards versus credit cards. I don't think you and I are both in favor of keeping balances on our credit cards and paying 30 percent interest. But I bet you you and I both use credit cards versus debit cards because why? All the benefits that I'm mentioning on the screen. The reason the reason I'm sharing this is like then when you talk about a perfect asset and this is you know, this is nothing new. You start laying out what would a perfect asset be? And you're like, OK, just newsflash, no asset checks all these boxes. But a properly set up life insurance checks a lot of those. And so I'm not even taking the arbitrage like growth and use like that's obviously part of that. But I find that the more I've learned about these benefits, the more I've realized that it's like, oh, my goodness, life insurance is not an investment, but oh my goodness, it has so many jobs that it does. And the more I learn about these jobs as an and it it really opens my eyes to the opportunity. So I know I kind of went off there. Would love to hear your take on because I'm trying to find ways other than saying like, you know, you know, the like I love infinite banking, just to be clear, just to be clear, I'm not trying to discredit any, but I'm trying to find different spins. And we talked about future. I'm trying to figure out different paradigms where I can at least have someone acknowledge and say, I agree with you. I might disagree with your use of life insurance, but I agree with your premise. Would love to hear your take. Yeah, I mean, listen, like I'm pro whole life. I mean, I'm pro life insurance for that matter, although I very much dislike the way that IULs are sold in the marketplace and speak very openly and get a lot of hate for that. But that's OK. The news flashes are coming out. But when it comes to whole life insurance and, you know, what you just mentioned, I mean, if we from a compliance standpoint, if we didn't have to call it whole life and we could just call it something else, like people would line up at our door to get it, they would literally be like, I need to get some of that. What is that thing called? Yeah, I want that. Right. But once you call it whole life, I mean, whole life has been bastardized so badly, you know, since the 1970s, you know, that it's it's just hard to make it popular again. It's hard to make it sexy again. But it's always been. It's not like you're trying to dress something up. It's always been the sexiest thing in the in the lineup. I mean, Ted Bennett talks about it in the 501k. It's because people are comparing it to an investment. I know they are. But I just did. Well, IULs were created because in we lost our way and we're like, the only way to compete is to make insurance and investment. And that's the fundamental flaw in IUL. It's hard to sell an IUL not trying to compete with investments. You're right. You're right. And, you know, I got asked this the other day. We were going over the myths of whole life and IBC. And one of them was, you know, talking about investments like, you know, when you're talking to most advisors and listen, we have a registered investment advisory, so we have advisors. But most advisors out there, if you mention the word whole life, they're like, oh, no, because they want to sell you an IUL. They want to make the commission on an IUL. But but the whole idea is whole life insurance is not an investment by pure definition. Google, you know, the definition of an investment, you will find that it has to involve risk of losing money or risk of losing principal. That is definition of an investment in a whole life policy. You cannot lose. You can't lose money over time. You just can't. Every year you'll have more than you did the year before. Guaranteed. Like that isn't an investment. So you can't even put it in the same category. The thing that I think a lot of people are doing, and this is where your book is so pivotal. I mentioned the and asset all the time. So does my team, because it is the and asset. You know, people don't they should never, ever compare whole life to any investment because it's this and that you put the money in the whole life and then you buy the asset or the investment or do whatever you're going to do. And when you do that, you just gave your dollars more jobs because your money gets to earn. And I said this to someone the other day, and this will preface all those green checkmarks you just said. I said to him, I said, just imagine that every dollar you deposited in your bank account throughout your entire working life doesn't just take it from age 16 to whatever age you are now. Just imagine that every dollar you put in your bank account, even just imagine your bank account only paid you one percent. Let's just keep this super low. Right. How much money would you have if you never, ever lost the earning potential on every single dollar that you put into your bank account, even though you went out and you spent that money, you bought cars, you did all these things, you spent almost every dollar you make because that that's just what we do. Right. The more we make, the more we spend. But just just imagine a world or a thing that allowed you to earn uninterrupted regardless of what you did with the money. But as long as it ran through that bank account, you earned that one percent. Everybody's life would change instantly and it would like the world would be a different place. But that's pipe dream, right? That doesn't happen. There's nothing on earth that can do that except for whole life insurance, especially whole life insurance from a direct or a non-direct recognition company. Now, all of a sudden, you actually can earn money on almost every single dollar you put through a whole life minus cost of insurance, commissions and policy service fees. And I love when people like all those commissions, you guys are making all the money. You clearly don't understand how this works. Why are IULs the most popular and most sold products in the life insurance world? The answer always comes back to commissions. Not so with specially designed whole life, because we take a big haircut in our commissions. So our clients get high early cash value. So right there, competitive growth. Well, so I was going to I was going to going to ask you on this list, I have a list of benefits, say if it's easily accessible, competitive growth. And just to be clear, if I preface this, when I'm when I'm talking to people, we talk about how IRRs works. But I usually give life insurance a yellow checkmark, mainly because I want to explain to people I actually think it's green, but I don't want to lose credibility with people by saying, yes, it's like because we're saying it's not an investment. And yet, but I think you're wrong having that be yellow. That absolutely is green. Just just just just hear me out here. Just hear me out. So what we're what we're doing is then I show people like, OK, in a life insurance policy in this this example, the internal rate of return is four and a half percent. OK, four and a half tax free. Four and a half tax free. OK, yeah, you see, sorry, I don't mean to jump ahead here, but like we have to call the elephant in the room out like it's that's not four point five eight percent return because everybody's like, oh, that's OK. It's better than my bank account. That's way more than that because you're not paying tax on that. So so, hey, I didn't I promise I didn't talk to Chris before this. If you include the. Yeah, I didn't see this. So so check this out. We're taking all the benefits that are green. And then when I'm calculating it into our calculator, I'm taking them out because the calculator is now taking that benefit and bumping up the rate of return. So what I'm saying is if you just look at the four and a half percent, you could say, this is better than a high yield savings account long term. So we're already smoking the savings account. But Chris, I'm going to say something you're going to probably disagree with. Mathematically, if I could only if I if I didn't care, if I only cared about growth and use and I had an account that was earning four and a half percent and I could borrow at five, no other benefits, I'm an idiot for wanting even if it's uninterrupted compounding, if I'm only earning four and a half and it costs me five to use, there's no other benefits. Personally, I would. That's that's an equivalent of a negative half percent account that I'm putting my money in. Do you agree or disagree with that? Mathematically, I agree with it from the surface. Yeah. Yeah. I know human behavior and all. OK, but this is where. So then when someone's like, OK, Caleb, you talk about life insurance not getting necessarily cash on cash arbitrage. Why are you such a big fan of life insurance? Here's why. You just add taxes alone. Now I'm adding 30 percent. There's some people in the state of California and your lovely state of New York. Congrats on the new mayor, by the way. And now. Congrats on the new New York City mayor. Yeah, I know. Yeah, the equivalent rate return. And I have to I have to explain equivalent rate return. We're Chris and I are not saying that life insurance is getting a six and a half percent. We're just saying when you factor in what you would have to pay in a high yield savings account, you have to pay ordinary income tax. But you're also you're only assuming that the majority of the people listening to this live in states where there's no state income tax. I happen to live in the beautiful than a 30 percent. The beautiful thing about the calculator is you can bring it up to 50 or 60 percent if you want. You can bring it as low as zero. But just look at that. Let's just use this because this is like pretty lowballing it. Right. Because most states do have state income tax. So you're you're pushing north of 30 percent. But let's just go to six point five four percent. That that is what you'd need to make in any tax investment, including a high yield bank account, a tax, you know, a treasury bond, treasury bill, anything but a muni bond. You'd have to earn six point five four. And I have I'll be honest, I I have not seen any muni bonds to pay anything close to six point five four percent. But yet people like especially wealthy folks always run to muni bonds because of the tax advantage, the tax advantages. But here this is tax advantage. You make it six point five for you. Muni bonds doesn't have a chronic or term. It doesn't have any of those things. It's just got tax tax free growth. And there's even caveats to that here. You always have tax free growth as long as it's built properly under the max seven pay. But now let's let's ask that same question. If you had an account that you could earn six point five four, but you could borrow from that same account hypothetically for five percent, would you borrow from anything else? You'd be making a positive arbitrage on your money every time you used your money like you would use it. Exactly. And that's that's the that's the thought. Like and we're not we're not even we're just getting started. That's the beautiful thing about this is is that when you fired up your ad, when you add cost of insurance, when you add potential fee, we also can go as far as we can look at what a long term care policy would be. We could look at what it would look like to get the credit protection that you're already getting in life insurance. Then we can run a risk adjusted return. And I'm telling you that what I'm not saying is that life insurance is going to get close to eight, 10, 11, 12 percent that I'm not saying that it's going to get that in your cash on cash. But what I'm saying, when you start looking at all the benefits that you get, look at all the green that is still not being used right now. And so that's that's that's I'm making your point while I'm saying life insurance does not give you a cash on cash arbitrage. When you look at all the other benefits, hence going back to if you could give your dollars more than one job and you understand those jobs, well, those jobs now have value. And if you don't tie value to those jobs, then you're not being intellectually honest with with this whole conversation. And so normally when people talk about life insurance, they're purely looking at the cash value. They're look they're comparing it to a hypothetical, maybe average rate of return that they potentially could get in the market. And they're not including any other jobs. And if they were, they still I'm still cool with someone saying, I still don't love this, this play. We can agree to disagree. But for you, for you to make all the talking points that, you know, are being said on like Dave Ramsey show and all it just it's intellectually honest when you're when you're working with someone that that's setting this up right now, just just also just going back and I here's a here's the actual calculator and let's just do this in real time. I'll let you run the numbers. What do you want that cash IRR to be? Just tell me a percentage. Yeah, do four point one, four point one. What do you want the tax rate to be? Twenty eight. Well, actually, if we're including state, hold on. So I'm going to include a modest state. Do thirty thirty three. OK, I will do thirty three. I just want to show it's already without even including taxes, it's already outperforming high yield savings accounts over the last 30 years, slightly underperforming bonds. But check this out. Thirty three percent. Boom. Right. Right. That there alone, you this life insurance policy with the inputs that we've put the equivalent value crushes bonds and high yield savings account. What do you want to put for management fee? I mean, one point two five is pretty average on any brokerage account with an advisor. OK, what do you so cost of insurance anywhere? I think your 10 percent was spot on. I mean, that was maybe low. Yeah, if what I love doing, if we're talking to people in there, you know, who want actually life insurance, we could look at guaranteed universal life. And that's around 40 percent. But this is the whole by term and best difference. You're going to drop your term policy 10 percent. OK, chronic illness, Ryder, you can put in zero. I don't know. I put in zero credit protection. This is this is like if you wanted to buy extra insurance, protect your assets or if you wanted to buy entities that actual shield your shield, your money, only one percent, maybe. OK, so that's going to barely do anything. OK, so we're right now at eight point three. This last thing that I've done is we just did a risk adjusted and we're just assuming you could earn four percent risk free and anything else. If we're assuming eight point three, you'll need to take on risk. And we're just factoring that in. So the equivalent value in our inputs are eight point three percent. If you do risk adjusted nine point two. My question to you, where can you earn anywhere close to this and have liquidity and control like where what other asset that you can have liquidity? No, none, none, none. The answer is zero. And I know there's a lot of people listening that will hear this and they're like, well, the S&P 500, just stick around for the show a little bit longer. I realize that this is the longest bull run in history. I realize that people over or under 38 years old have never felt the impact of a recession, but just give it some time and you will and then you will understand that the S&P 500 heavily weighted on seven stocks like I think it's like 60 to 80 percent of the gains of the S&P 500 are from seven stocks. Like it ain't going to it ain't going to do this. No way. But the reality is it's like, well, if you're so such a big fan of the S&P, then just take a loan against your policy and put in the S&P. I get it. But people don't even understand the S&P 500. It's just it's almost become like a buzzword. It's almost like the equivalent of saying, oh, you got a toothpick. A toothpick is a brand name like that's almost how people are looking at the S&P. They don't even understand it. But I get it. I totally get it. My argument would be insurance and the if you're such a big fan of the S&P, which you clearly are not. But if I am talking to someone, it's like, does insurance enhance your S&P? Absolutely. You just proved it. You just showed the mathematics behind how whole life insurance improves your returns of the S&P 500 without taking any more risk. Yeah. It's not like, you know, you don't have to go out and buy options or derivatives to try to boost your return on a stock like you automatically getting that. Yeah. And the crazy thing is we factored in probably six benefits. But remember that list. There's still a lot of green benefits that I cannot figure out how to calculate because how do you calculate safety and guarantee? I don't know how to incorporate that into an IRR other than the fact that that is a benefit that not even all savings accounts have. If you have two million dollars in a savings account and only two hundred fifty thousand dollars FDIC insured, then you have to live with the fact that if that bank goes under that, that and all that money is not technically guaranteed. And I know someone could say, well, you know, life insurance companies going under. Yeah, buddy, we could have we could have a conversation all day long about the the the safety of your money. I think even the people that hate insurance the most aren't using that card around. Oh, and these mutual insurance companies are are going to go under. I proved it a long time ago. I did a video, the history of IBC, and basically just went back in time to find all the people who have used whole life insurance. And and really the origins, as much as I could figure it out, were the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, the Morgans and the Sandleys, to which all were bankers. And why did they put money in life insurance companies? Because it wasn't common back then to do this. They did it because they were just safer than the banks. That was it. There was the sole reason why they did it. And then because they had the money in the whole life, they they knew that they could use that money through loans and they started doing that. But it was not because of the loans that they did the whole life. It was because of pure safety of their principal. Banks couldn't be trusted back then. They shouldn't be trusted today. Chris, with the time that we have left, talk to me about why you use IBC for cars, because that's probably the biggest disagreement we might have on on the Internet. If you're a high income earner or own a successful business, you're already creating real value in the world. The real question is, are you keeping that money, protecting it and growing it the way that actually supports your long term goals? At Better Wealth, we help people like you better keep, protect and grow their wealth through various tax strategies, estate planning, specially designed life insurance, retirement planning and even a fractional family office service. If you're interested in one or more of the areas we can serve and want to learn more, the next step is to book a free clarity call with us. Click the link in the description or tag comment below to get started. Back to the video. Because because I bought a lot of cars in my life and every car that I used to buy, for the most part, I would always finance them. I had this this relationship with the credit union here. And literally, like, I think I did like 40 car loans. I held a record there for a long time. And I just when I learned about the infinite banking concept, it was so simple to me. It made perfect sense. Change one thing where your savings goes first, because I was already saving money. Not a lot back then, but enough. And then add one step. And that step was just I like to call it monopoly, right? I'm just playing real world monopoly. I'm moving my little chess piece or my little piece around a monopoly board. And every year I'm passing go, which means I get a dividend. But along the way, I'm finding jobs for my money. So I'm relating this back to yours. So as I go around monopoly board, which is the equivalent of 12 months of the year, what I'm doing is I'm finding places that I can make my money go to work. And then I'm putting some money into various things, some real estate, some private lending, but cars, right? I have a family and we have I collect Porsches. So that's a problem. But, you know, we also have two cars in our family that we drive every single day. And I just simply did the math. I did the math on how much money it would cost me to finance those at the lowest offered loan rate out there in the industry. And when I started doing that, I was kind of astonished. What interest rate was was it? It depends on the time period when I did this. I mean, going back to when I first started this 10 years ago, you get a car loan for three, four percent. Now, today, it's like six, seven, eight. Well, keep going. I mean, but that's where you're at. But back then it was three, four percent. But here's the thing. When I added up how much I was paying and losing on cars, it was it was pretty astonishing at three, four percent, which you cannot get a car loan today at three, four percent. So then what I did is I I literally just ran the math of what if I did it through the policy? And what if I just paid myself back the exact monthly payment that I would have paid a bank? And this whole first thing, I did it with several cars. But the first one that I really documented was when my wife, we found out she was pregnant. I bought her a Porsche Cayenne because the car we had was just it was just always in the shop and it just wasn't a reliable vehicle. So we bought her this Porsche Cayenne. He was used and we were negotiating with the dealership. And I remember she got so mad at me because she knew we were paying cash for the car through a loan with our policies. But I was playing this game with the sales guy and he'd go back to the manager, come back, slide me over the rate. I say, no, you got to beat this. And I was just playing off the monthly amount. I wanted the lowest monthly payment for the car. This is how everybody buys a car. And this is why I did it three or four times back and forth. And he slides it over. He says, Chris, I'm sorry. This is absolutely our final and best. There is no better offer we can give. And I look at my wife and she's just still pissed off, you know, because I'm just playing games. And I said, yeah, I'll take that. And he's like, great. I said, you got a deal. So he then slides this big pile of paperwork over the credit applications, I said, and I slid it back to him. I said, I don't need this. And he said, why? And I said, well, because we're paying cash for the car. I said, I'm doing this through my private banking system. And he says, well, why did you have me going back? He was he was actually pretty pissed off. And at this time, I did not know dealerships made money on financing. I just thought this was just a convenience they did to get people to buy the car where they made the money. No, no, no. They make money on the financing. And later, I found this out that I actually kind of screwed him because he had negotiated the price of this vehicle down because they factored in that they were making money on this financing, to which I just stripped him. So he then says to me, he says, why did we do all that? And I said, well, because I had to figure out what the lowest monthly payment would be for me to pay my bank back at my banking system. He didn't understand it then, but like that was the whole thing. So when I buy cars, I always make a car payment, but I make a car payment back to myself. So, like, let's just take the policy right out of this, OK? This is where I get a lot of hate. The infinite banking concepts is a process. Yes, they include the whole life insurance policy because it makes it more efficient, but it doesn't have to be included to to have the infinite banking concept work. The banking function, if you will. You could use a bank account. You could use a 401k. So if I just did what I just explained with a bank account, I saved up enough to buy this Porsche. I paid cash for the Porsche. I made the exact car payment I would have made to the Porsche dealership, but I made it back to myself while I get all the money back for the car after five years, plus the interest. So then when I started doing it with the policy, the policy made it just a wee little bit better. I've had a little bit more money and plus I had a death benefit. And plus my money was protected from judgments and liens and all those green checkmarks. So you can agree to disagree or just agree like it's just a more efficient way to buy cars. And I have bought no less than 20 vehicles using this system. I've gotten money back on every all my money back on every car. And now I even play it now like I got a G-Wagon right here that it just sold kind of a stupid overpriced vehicle. But nonetheless, I finance that one through. I overpaid for the vehicle. I did. Yeah, because it was after covid, I overpaid for it. I knew I overpaid for it, but didn't matter because I knew if I made payments back to my bank, I would close that gap. So I just sold the vehicle for one hundred and thirty four thousand. And most people would have lost 40 grand on that deal from what I paid to what I did. But I actually made money because I was ahead of the game because I use the infinite banking concept to buy it. So that's why. Can can we hash this out as we land the plane? Sure. OK, I, I, I think the you know how Nelson talks about volume versus rate. Yeah. And I think the the pure goal is to help people save more money. And so there's no doubt when people are motivated by things like cars, they will find ways to just save more. So I want to acknowledge that. And then I but I want to talk from just a pure mathematical standpoint. So we both have cash value available. And I could let's say I'm going to buy a car and my policies at six percent just say that I can access it. I'm going to I'm going to play both both ways here. Let's say I could get a four percent loan. And my whole goal is to save more money to to my like to increase the capital. I will be able to have more money for the Williams Capital Life Insurance if I take the bank loan, take the difference and put it in forms of PUA's or what I didn't catch something to take. What? So so I so this scenario number one to the four. Yeah. So if I could borrow at a car dealer at four percent and I or I could take a loan at six percent from my personal bank, I would be better off taking the four percent, taking the additional two percent that I would have paid the insurance company, which is not wrong. They're not eat, but it would go to the insurance company, not me. And I could I would be I would have more money in that scenario that that's where it's like I think I could prove you wrong. No, mathematically, every day you can't because this is this is like pure math. I know I know the math, but I could because you're missing it. You can do it. And this is this will be like, well, we have to come up, but like I can explain how because that's not how the math works. Well, it does. So hold on. Because when you take the payment, OK, that you're making, so take your car payment that you're making at four percent, if you just take that same exact car payment, because you could get a loan from the bank at four percent. So don't make your loan more just because your policy loan interest rates six. And if I took that loan payment, I paid it back to my policy, recycling and recapturing it as a loan repayment. What happens is after one year, I didn't pay six percent to the insurance company because I've been paying down the loan. So the APR is more like four percent of that second year. I'm doing the same thing, my APR, because I'm I'm paying interest, simple interest on a declining balance. The APR is now in the three, the low three percent range and then two percent the next year. And I'm working off of a five year loan. So when you average that out and you average the APR, the interest you actually paid to the insurance company, not the interest that the insurance company was charging, you are way ahead, even at four percent. Mathematically certain. OK, can I be a little late, a lot late and then because and I have time, I'm happy to I'm happy to show the math. I just I need a calculator. You got a calculator at your fingertips. I don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me let me let me just do let me just do. Because you got to factor in what you could earn on that two percent difference and roll that back into the equation. But but I'm I'm assuming the same thing. So this is where this is where I think and this is not a get you. This is like this is probably the one biggest. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Because go ahead. You know me. I'm not I'm not here trying to. OK, so you have. OK, we're going to do Chris and Caleb, right? You have Chris and Caleb, OK? Just to make just to make math extremely simple. We're going to say the payment and let's let's say we have we have cash value. Can we both agree that let's just say these are identical policies? So we have cash value over here. Cash value over here. OK, we're going to let's say payments are. Let's say the payment is a thousand dollars. So the simple math thousand dollar a month car payment. We want to buy a car. We want to buy a car. OK. And let's say and we're already funding our policies. So none of that is that is going to change. And let's say the car dealership over here will give us a payment at a thousand. Yeah. Call it four percent interest. OK, so a thousand dollar payment. And or I could take a policy loan at twelve hundred. Just just assuming that it's a little bit higher interest rate. Well, yeah, but don't but don't don't assume it's a higher interest rate. Well, I just that was my first assumption is six percent versus four percent. So I wouldn't do I wouldn't do it that way. Well, I would pay myself my policy back the exact amount I would have paid the bank. And if the bank's offering a loan at four percent, I would pay myself exactly what the bank was offering and the dealership was off. OK, so the but that's just that that's a talking point that I've never heard before, because I don't. So I think it's silly. Nobody in their logical mind would pay more just to pay it back to themselves when they could get it cheaper from a bank. OK, so you do agree with me that this scenario you would take the bank. No, I would not. OK, we haven't got that far, but I am. What I'm agreeing with you on is the thousand dollar car loan that you could have got from the bank. OK, I would only if I was doing it from my bank, my policy, I would only pay my bank back one thousand dollars. I would not pay my bank back more like that. So you would you would pay even if your interest rate was at six percent, you would be an equivalent. Yeah, because what I just explained, it won't matter in a second. But yeah, but just put a thousand bucks. That's a person I don't necessarily think that matters to the equation. But OK, so here we go. So, Chris, in this scenario, you're going to take a policy loan. And and again, like just hear me out. You're going to pay twelve hundred. Trust me, I'm not I'm not going to be weird with math. I'm going to take the one thousand and I'm going to take I'm going to. Caleb over here is going to put an additional two hundred into my policy. So we're the same cash flow is the same. But Chris, I'm telling you, over time, Caleb will have more money than Chris in in this scenario, because this should be a cool part, too, because we can model this. Yeah, but but Chris, there's not there's not there's nothing to like the Chris. You're you're paying back a loan. These are the same. This is identical policy. What's going to be better? What's better for the policy? A loan repayment or new premium? OK, that's simple. And a loan repayment in this scenario would be better because you're talking about a six percent loan rate. So if I'm repaying the policy, but see, the difference is and I know how you're modeling this and you can continue to model it this way. But I would be paying my policy back one thousand dollars. If you're saying the cost is twelve hundred at six percent because you're saying that the six versus the four is a two hundred dollar delta. OK, so that is true the first month. But the second month after I make a thousand dollar payment back to my policy as a loan repayment, that is not true anymore. And then the next month. So every month I'm paying a thousand back, which means the insurance company is no longer charging me twelve hundred. They're charging me with the six percent on whatever the declining balance. The reason the reason why that does that that it's it's a half truth respectfully, because you're not wrong, but you're not 100 percent. Right. And the cost you're looking at, you're looking at. No, I I'm not talking about the opportunity cost at this point. I'm just talking the math. Right. What I'm saying is this is what I'm you're talking about the two hundred dollars going into the policy. Is that going to outweigh? I've never run the math on that, but I'd love to. But it's not like they're there. We don't even need to run a calculator because just just do the logic. If we have the same exact policy, I'm not talking about like I'm just talking about the same exact policy and we have 100 grand in both. OK, you took a loan from and let's say non-direct recognition. So you took a loan again. So I technically have more capital than you to begin with because I'm taking their money over here. I'm holding on. Now, that could be a good thing or a bad thing. As an entrepreneur, I'd rather have the money and options. I'll agree with you. Options. That's a different talking. I agree with you on that. So so then what what in this scenario, if we're taking the same twelve hundred, Chris over here is putting all twelve hundred back to repay back the loan. OK, where whereas remember, like your policies is going to be identical. These policies are growing identical. All I'm doing is I, Caleb, and and putting an additional two hundred to not only do I have all of my hundred thousand, whereas you're you're now paying back, getting back to that hundred thousand of liquidity. Our policies are growing the exact same. The only difference is I'm adding two hundred and logic would say I'm adding two hundred to this scenario. I'm going to have more money over time. I I'm not going to agree. I will run the math because it to me is not as logical as you're making it out to be, because you're using your numbers and your logic. I get it. But I'm just a mathematics guy. That's why we created the vault software is to prove mathematics and to run multiple scenarios in one particular example using the policies. So this is a very simple thing. And I think it would be a sweet second podcast to kind of get out. Now, I'm not saying you're wrong. Yeah, I'm just saying let's let Matt and maybe on the next episode, like I'll even talk like from a math standpoint, but then I could even make the argument and I would be wrong. Let's I could make the argument that this let's just say this payments four hundred fourteen hundred fourteen hundred. I could still make the argument that I would still take the loan from the bank, even though mathematically I would be less behind because it would be it would be obvious that you would now have an additional two hundred that you could put into your policy. Apple samples would actually be ahead. And we could have an we could have a conversation around like, why would I take precious capital, put it into a depreciating asset or an asset doesn't matter that a bank will give when like I have access to like money. So for me, that's a whole different. That's not I'm admitting that. Yeah, that is a personal preference thing. That really is. And I can I can answer for myself. And I and I've gone public, you know, on my YouTube and my webinars explaining this over and over. You know, several years ago, like when I started buying the Porsches, I've always loved Porsches since I was a little kid and I never had one. So now, you know, I have five. But it has nothing to do with the Porsches. OK, so please don't hang up on that. What it was for me, I saw a declining economy. I saw a future investment world was that that was not safe and was not secure. And I was pulling money back out of investments. OK, real estate investments, selling real estate, closing out loans that I had done on that. And I had all this cash value and I did not have anywhere for that money to go to work. OK, I have no debt outside of my mortgage. I have no debt. OK, so I was in a kind of this is a personal thing. I needed to move money. I needed to do something with that money. So I started using it to buy this car collection. And also, this isn't why I do it, but this is just at that point why I bought more cars with this versus investing that money or versus financing it. I needed to move capital. OK. Now, I know that doesn't apply to some of the people listening. I'm just this is a personal preference. And every client, every person listening will have a personal preference on where they move money and what they invest in. This was just mine. It was the safest place, because right now, if I go to a bank, a car loan, six percent, if I pay myself back at the same exact rate I would pay on a car loan, six percent, that to me is a good return on my money. It really is. And the arbitrage, if you will, from what I pay the insurance company, the cost of capital to what I'm earning on the six percent. So most would say, well, if you pay in the insurance company five and they're charging and you're paying the loan back at six, you're making a one point spread. I'm making way more than that because of the the velocity of money and the APR, the APR is the number I'm using. So every year I'm getting a higher and higher return on my money and I'm taking zero risk. So for me, the cars is really just maybe a privilege that I have where I have capital to do this that isn't going to affect my outside business investment capability. So I have liquidity. It just to me was a better place to move money than anything else that I could find. Yeah. So you would you would agree with me that if someone had a liquidity choice between an asset or a liability, that they may be mistaken if they take all their precious car into a car? The thing I would actually and I've been talking about this with Devin a lot is one of the things right now, there are a lot of cars out there that lease out phenomenally well, like I'll just use Jeeps, for example. They have a really high residual value. So if you go to lease a Jeep like you could get a sixty thousand Jeep for like six hundred dollars a month. If you were to try to finance that, that's over a thousand bucks a month. So like I would tell people, all right, listen, like you got the money in the policy and you have debts or you have something else we can use the money in the policy for. Go lease a find a vehicle that leases really well from a residual standpoint. Negotiate down the factoring rate, which is the interest rate they charge in a lease and get a good deal on a lease. And then you're driving a brand new car. You feel good about it. But then take the difference from what that lease is that you're paying and what you would have paid yourself back at, which is a going financing rate, you know, which about six percent right now. And then reinvest that back into another policy. Then you'd certainly be ahead. I just I think I think there's a lot of ways to play that. I've never really gone public with that. So this is the first time I've mentioned that. But we talk behind the scenes about it all the time. I don't think that's a bad strategy at all. I just think people make a lot of mistakes. So it's from the public standpoint, it's just easier. And I think you can respect this. It's just easier sometimes just to teach the the one way and then people can kind of figure out the logic behind what's best for them or work with us to figure that logic out. I think that's what Dave Ramsey, I'll give him flowers. He's very consistent. I think behind closed doors, he's not an idiot. He knows if he can get a zero percent or zero life. You know, he if he can or if you can zero percent loan put into treasuries, you're not really taking on any risk. But he's being consistent because he knows when he gives an inch, people get more confused. And what you're saying is, hey, like every case is going to be a little bit different. But I had Carlton Dennis on the other, you know, the other day. And he's talking about like, hey, I'm not giving tax advice when I'm on TikTok. I'm getting people to think different. But obviously, when they work with me or our team, it's every situation is going to be the same. But I'm trying to like inspire and tell instead of telling them no. And I do think, to your credit, there's many people that are starting to save more because of the desire to buy a dream car. And by that desire, you're getting them to save three thousand dollars a month instead of their fifteen hundred uninspired. And you're it's really hard to compete if you're increasing someone's absolutely right. It's but it's that's not a math problem. That's a heart problem. And it's true motivation, an emotion problem. And that's the most powerful thing when it comes to money. Chris, thank you. I look forward to coming on your show. And absolutely. Damn in one. Sounds great. I only went for a day, and that was my biggest regret, because people start to see something in themselves they haven't seen before. I'm just so grateful.