Raising Kids Who Can Handle the Real World

Hello and welcome to Thriving Kids, a podcast from the Child Mind Institute that helps you raise emotionally healthy children. I'm Dr. Dave Anderson, clinical psychologist and your host. Today we're talking about how parents can raise kids who can stay kind, grounded, and resilient. We'll be joined by Melinda Wenner-Moyer, journalist and author of two acclaimed parenting books, How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes, and her new release, Hello Cruel World. Melinda's work has helped countless parents think more clearly about how to nurture empathy, strength, and a sense of purpose in their children, even when the world around them can feel discouraging or chaotic. We'll talk about how her thinking has evolved from preparing her first book, involved in tackling a crisis of kindness, to helping families navigate the systemic challenges of today. We'll talk about how parents can build what she refers to as the three C's, coping, connecting, and cultivating, and how those three C's can help our kids grow into capable, caring adults. Let's get into it. Thinking about kind of our conversation today, you've written two very notable books in 2021, 2025. What kind of got you into this space and thinking that you'd like to translate the science of parenting for lay audiences? Please also feel free to say your titles as the word in one of your book titles is a safe word on this podcast. Excellent. I'm happy to hear that. Yes. So, I've been writing about science and parenting actually for a very long time. Actually, you know that because I wrote a Slate column and interviewed you for it many years ago, but- If folks want to go back there, it's one of the best articles on behavioral parent coaching that anyone's ever had. It's great. Oh my goodness. Anyway, yeah. I am so- I still think about that Slate article, but anyway, yes. You've just made my week. Thank you. So, I've long been interested in how science can inform parenting, but when my kids started getting a little older, like once they were past the, you know, what do I do to make sure I don't accidentally kill them stage, I started really thinking about, you know, what are my big goals as a parent? And the thing I kept landing on was like, I just want my kids to grow up to be good human beings. Like, I want to be compassionate, and I want them to be inclusive, and I want them to be resilient, and I just want them to function in the world in a, you know, mature, emotionally healthy, kind way. Yeah. And so, my first book is called How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes, because that was basically, I was like, what's the core of what I want? I want my kids to not grow up to be assholes. So, what can I learn from the science and share with parents about how we can make that happen? And what I just liked about the first book is that you defined it by the absence of a negative thing, as opposed to, like, titling it, like, How to Raise Kind, Caring Children, like, which I, you know, was there discussion of the positive versus negative for a behaviorist? I'm just, this is my question. Well, it came to me in the form that it is now. Like, I was literally out to dinner with my husband at the time, and I said, I should just write a book called How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes. So, that's how it came to me. And I, my publisher, there were a lot of conversations about the title, believe me, because, you know, we knew that if there was a swear word in the title, it would both make it more interesting and sellable, maybe, because it's kind of edgy, but also, morning shows weren't going to happen. You know, nobody wants swear word titles, you know, on the radio, that kind of thing. But I feel like it just sort of captured how parents sometimes talk about their kids. Like, they'll talk about their kids as like, my kid is such an asshole today, or like, you know, or how do I, like, how do I, I just don't want to raise an asshole. And so, it felt like just the right word for the moment, in a way. Well, this word speaks to me because my, so, my wife and my nine-year-old has worked out a system by which every time I swear in front of him, he gets credit for a swear word he can use at a later date. Now, he's running, unfortunately, I'm running a massive debt at the moment because my nine-year-old is actually quite anxious about breaking rules and generally only likes to say swear words to get my daughter to smile during family pictures. But last night, I described another kid, and I'm not saying kids are assholes, but just like, the behavior the other kid engaged in was asshole-ish behavior. I made it an adjective. And my son immediately, you know, he clutched his pearls and said he can't believe that I used the word. And, but I mean, like, it's a real objective. Like, asshole-ish behaviors are happening every day, and we're trying to help our kids navigate through those and not mimic them. Yeah, exactly. Right. And, and yeah, and it feels like in some ways, the asshole-ish behavior is getting more common, or at least people are being more open about it in some ways now. And so, it just, it felt like a kind of essential book for the time that I really, and honestly, it was for me too. Like, I, you know, I wanted to learn how to do this for my own kids. So much of what I do is rooted in, like, my own curiosity or anxiety. Right. So you write that book. You are helping parents to make sure they raise a generation of more kind, non-asshole kids. But it wasn't enough. Then what happened to make you write a second book? Let's talk about that. Yes. So yeah, this is where my anxiety really kind of took over. And, you know, I was like, okay, I've written this book on how to not raise assholes, and I feel good about this. And for the most part, my kids were not acting too much like assholes. But I started getting more and more anxiety about just raising kids to be able to function in this world that we're living in. Because it feels, and I mean, there have been hard times all throughout human history, of course, but it feels like there's so much rapid change right now. There's, there's so many things that we're worried about that we know our kids are going to have to deal with. I mean, from climate change, political polarization, you know, gun violence, like all sorts of things that that just feel really pressing right now. And I also knew I just want to say as one example, this morning, I have, but we have the we have the amazing privilege of both sets of grandparents are in town this week, which is both an amazing privilege to have two sets of living grandparents, and also a logistical nightmare for my wife and I to manage in such things. But they're all going to see some school performances and Halloween parades this week as we're recording. And they have to get themselves into the digital safe system for our kids public elementary school that involves putting in their birth date, government ID, like sharing a level of data that our boomer parents are not like comfortable sharing online to generate a QR code to get into our kids locked down public elementary school, all as they're lamenting how we got to this place. So I mean, like the threats you're talking about, I'm, I'm feeling them this morning. Yeah, well, and just technology changing so fast, like all of that, too. It's like, well, how do we how do we raise kids who are going to be able to deal with this world that it might be very different when they're, you know, in 15 years when they're grown up, too. And it was also because I knew there was a lot of research on parental anxiety and how high it is right now. And I knew that, you know, anxious and fear based parenting is not always the most constructive. We don't always make the best decisions when we're really, really anxious. And so I, again, for me, I wanted to understand, okay, well, what are the what are the key skills that kids really need today to be able to thrive? And what, what does the science say about how they develop and what we as parents and teachers and whatnot can do to help nurture them? So that's really my second book, which is Hello, Cruel World. Yes. So, I mean, I think there's, there's, there's no doubt as, as our listeners are thinking about this, that you have a talent for naming books in a clearly eye catching way for parents, such that they're going to be like, oh, yeah, yeah, this, this could be something right here. So with that, I have no doubt that many people are hoping that over the course or the arc of this conversation, we can decrease their anxiety a little bit. So in your research on how to equip parents best to help kids deal with the challenges of the modern world, what did you come across? And please don't say avoidance and putting your head in the sand. Ready? Right. No, yes. Actually, I feel like so much of my book is really about opening up to your kids and being really present with them and also really listening to them. So like the opposite of avoidance. Like, so, I mean, my, my book covers a lot of ground, as you probably know, if you haven't read it. And I, I, I broke my book down into three sections, which we can call the three C's. Just saying, I can't believe it has not been branded this way already, but still, yes. Yeah, I know. Yeah. So yes, I've never actually referred to it as the three C's, but my book does have three sections and they start with C's. So the first one is cope. So coping mechanisms. So I really, I, one of the things I wanted to focus on was mental health, because we're all so worried about our kids' mental health. And I wanted to know, you know, what can we do as parents to really nurture mental health in our kids? And so in this section, I talk about various ways to, to nurture different kinds of coping skills. So that's, you know, self-compassion, which is actually the first chapter. There's so much fascinating research on self-compassion and how helpful that is, how positive that is. I talk about resilience. I talk about empathy, finding, actually wait, is empathy in that? Empathy might be in the second section. No, you did. You took, you took some points from the first book and, and put them forward in like a little bit more of a targeted way within the coping section. I noticed that. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I, when I talk about finding like balance, like how do we, how do we help our kids achieve this kind of work-life balance, you know, school-life balance, because that's really important as well. And then the second section is about connection, because we know that connection is just so important for us as social creatures, and it is not always easy for kids to develop connection. And I talk about also like the different ways in which gender conditioning can shape that, and how kids are socialized to connect or not connect as the case may be. And then my last section is cultivate. And this is really like, it covers a lot of different things, but I sort of think of it as like, what are the other life skills, key life skills that our kids need to have? So that's, you know, how do they engage with technology? How do we help them develop a healthy relationship with technology? How do we help them understand money and finances? And how do we, you know, help them be inclusive and not polarized? And so it's sort of like looking at how kids engage with the world and how they can sort of cultivate a better future. And I think the last piece is the piece that to me is most unique in the sense that like, look, first and foremost, the coping connecting sections are truly gifted summaries of research in those areas. And I feel like a lot of parents will hear like self-compassion, teach your kids to cope, like that kind of thing. But just like going, for example, section by section, if a parent says, okay, I'm listening, like I hear you, you know, I plan on reading this, but what's one thing that as I'm listening, I can do today to promote coping skills? What would you say is like the first and most important thing that you would highlight as maybe what you do or what you recommend? Yeah. I think one of the really big things is just trying to let our kids have big feelings and not shut them down and not fix them. I think that's a really big thing. And this is something I know you just had Lisa D'Amour on the podcast as well. And I take a lot of this from her wisdom as well. But, you know, I think we think of sometimes that, you know, mental health is about feeling good all the time. And so we think our kids in order to keep them mentally healthy, we need to make sure they don't struggle. They don't have challenges. They, you know, they if they have negative feelings, we try to fix them or tell them, you know, oh, you don't need to be this. Don't be this upset. It's okay. It's okay. You know, and sort of shut that down. And I think one of the biggest things is like, you know, big negative feelings are healthy and normal. And they also give kids the opportunity to practice developing the coping skills that, you know, that they need to get through tough moments. And so we want to actually let our kids have these difficult times and these difficult moments because it builds emotional resilience. And, you know, also just like being open with our kids about our own feelings, I think, is something we feel like we shouldn't do as parents. We should be calm and stoic all the time. And yes, you know, it's good to stay calm with our kids, of course. But I also think it's really helpful when we tell our kids, you know, I've struggled with this too, or I had a, you know, I actually had a rough day at work and here's how I dealt with it and sort of sharing our own experiences with our kids, letting our kids know that, you know, perfection is not the goal. We're all going to have struggles throughout our lives and, and, you know, we can get through it. We can learn from it. And it's, you know, it's okay to just experience challenge. That's just life. I mean, I think if we, if we connect a reference to Lisa here, what you're hitting on, you know, what I'll often say to folks in therapy, it's that like, you know, you're, you're highlighting this kind of notion of like how important parental modeling is and how incredible it is to like model for a kid, how much perfection is not the object of the object and how you can like show them that you're trying to cope with situations. I think that one of the things that always strikes me at least as perspective is also the curiosity in their situations, the notion that like, even though we've been through these challenges, perhaps some of us, like, you know, in our adolescence or in our upbringing, that we're not thinking that like, this has all been mapped that we're just curious and we're interested in how the kids in our lives are navigating these things. And then to your point about like emotional health, I often break down therapy for people as I want to help them, you know, savor the good times, which will not always come and you won't always be happy. I want to help them get more comfortable with being uncomfortable. And then I want to help them just not do completely unhelpful things in the moments where it's deeply uncomfortable. And like, if we can keep people kind of in that zone, like we're going to have a pretty good coping human being right there. And like, we're going to be able to kind of navigate this. So, okay. Go into the second C and the connecting. What's the first nugget where you're like, this is where I'd start or where you've started with your own child in connecting? Oh yeah. Listening, listening, listening, listening. I mean, so I have a 14 year old boy now and I was like, bless your heart as my upbringing in Georgia has trained me to say. I grew up in Georgia too, by the way. My God, we just figured this out of the podcast. Wait, okay. We're going to talk about this offline, but anyway, let's talk about your son right now, the 14 year old. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I was terrified of like, how do I stay connected with my 14 year old son, you know, as he becomes a teen and is he going to pull away? And I have found, and there's plenty of research to support this too, that just, you know, if I, so my default sometimes is like, I should be in teacher mode. I should be in lecture mode. Like if my kid has an issue or a problem or says something that's like a little bit suspect, I think like I need to jump down their throat and correct them and tell them what's what, you know. This might be your only chance. Exactly. The only chance to give them the right perspective. Well, yeah. Yeah. And so, so that's kind of how I always thought about it. And then talking with researchers, looking at the research, I realized actually like shutting my mouth and, and being curious, as you said as Lisa says and just like listening and letting my kid open up when they have, when they have that urge to open up. And it's also all about finding those little moments when they want to connect, which are not always like big conversations, but they can just be little moments, like, you know, a little thing here and there, a little touch, whatever it is. But I find that if I just am curious and pretty quiet that my son will often just start opening up and start talking about his day. I mean, the other day we're sitting in the car and he was. Okay. First of all, the car, by the way, giant open like that, that little moment. Yes. Okay. It's the best place to have these kinds of conversations because then they're also not, not, not feeling like they have to look you in the eye and they're not feeling that pressure. Well, I think you also talked a bit earlier. You referenced the notion of like some gender differences in communication where like, you know, I don't, I don't love this stuff because as a man who also is a mental health professional, I like to think that we can kind of cut across all kinds of things and be better than our conditioning. But bottom line is I find men are much easier, have a much easier time talking to me if they're not looking at me directly. If they're looking, we're both looking in the same direction or we're sitting opposite each other in a car or sitting passenger seat and driver's seat. Like there's something about that. I could see a 14 year old adolescent feeling a little more comfortable sharing with the back of your head. But anyway, keep going. Yeah. Yeah. So, so actually, and this ties in with the gender stuff too, because he had just been to a small party at a girl's house. And so it was mostly girls there. And he said to me, he said, you know, mom, I noticed that girls who are friends with other girls, they know a lot about each other and they, they, they just like, they ask a lot of questions about how they feel and what they've been doing. And they just know so much. And he's like, my friends and I don't know a whole lot about each other. We talk about what's going on in the world and we don't talk about each other and we don't talk about feelings. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is such a, an astute observation. Right. First of all. Yeah. And it just, you know, we had like a short, like four minute conversation about this and about, why is this? And what could it mean if you don't have friends that you share your feelings with, or, you know, and it was just such a great moment. It was short, but it was like, I don't know, I loved it. And it was because like, I kind of was like, how was the party, you know, what, what went on? And he just opened up to that. So first of all, it sounds like you're an incredible listener. Cause I can even feel myself in that moment, like wanting to be like, and what do you want in your friends? Like, do you want to cultivate different friends? Like, do we want to set an action plan for like, how you want to pursue certain friendships? But it's like, I agree. Like you're just sitting there and you're like, wow, that's a really great observation. Like, what does that mean for you? And you're just kind of like, you're continuing to go more deeply. It also just reminds me, there's a viral internet meme that I really loved for a little while. And it was men calling each other online to say good night. And I don't know if you saw any of the videos on this, but it was wild because, you know, it was just these guys who they'd call like their closest friend and they just say, what's up, man. I just want to say good night. Like, I just want to say good night. Hope you and yours are really good. I'm good. Good night. And the funniest thing is that because there's tendency toward gender norms to not call just to talk, their friends are like, are you okay? Like, what's wrong? Like, why are you calling me? Like you would never call just to say good night or to say hi. And you get these guys who get so stressed about their buddy and like, he won't, he's just saying like, oh, I just called to say good night. And they're like coming over. They're like, listen, man, I'm coming over. Like, we're going to talk. Like, I don't know what's going on with you, but clearly there's something wrong. Like, let's do this. And it's like, it, it spoke to like, I wanted to do a little response videos off this meme, but I knew it would just look like I was, you know, a weird, you know, uh, awkward psychologist trying to capitalize on a social media trend, but it was like, I want to make videos that were kind of like, so guys, if this feels weird to you, maybe like talk to your guy friends about some stuff so that if you do call to say good night, they don't think that you're in a mental health crisis. Like in that moment, cause they've got some window into your soul that makes them think like that, but that's beautiful framing. And I'm also, I'm sure that your, your son would love this story about how sensitive and thoughtful and insightful he is. Yes. Well, yes. Hopefully he won't kill me for having talked about this on the podcast. Well, they're usually pretty good about letting me share things, but, uh, yeah. Well, what, what we always think about for our kids is more that like, we figure at some point they're going to have AI scrape the internet for every mention my wife and I have ever made of them. And like, as long as they're pretty much like nice stories about what nice kids they are, we're probably okay. You know? Yeah. I hope so. I guess we'll find out. Well, that story could help your son with a future romantic partner. They'd be like, wow, like he's a really sensitive kid if like they listen about this. So I, I think that one was a good one. That was a good disclosure for us if we're comforting ourselves. So now, okay. Going to the toughest section, I think of the most recent book, which is the life skills. Cause you know, I think you take a tack that is, um, I think adherent to the science as we at the as well. And at the same time, very much, uh, kind of rowing against the current perhaps in the current zeitgeist. So when you say you think that kids should develop, uh, you know, tech literacy and, you know, media literacy, things like that, what drove you to that perspective or to say that that's kind of first line? Well, I mean, technology's here to stay. I don't see it going anywhere. Right. And so I think sometimes the inclination is to sort of protect and keep our kids away from it as long as possible. But in the same vein that we were talking about building emotional resilience, I mean, what we want is for our kids to over time develop the skills to be able to have a good relationship with screens and to have, you know, the capacity to understand the nuances and understand privacy and understand, you know, all, all sorts of things that they might need to know to be able to skillfully engage with technology. And so my take is that we should help them get there. And, you know, it's not so much about protecting and shielding for as long as possible as it is about finding ways, finding balance so that our kids can be safe online, but also over time, you know, and through conversations with us develop the skills that they will need and use their whole lives. Well, and what I really loved about your perspective is the notion that like kids are trying to help. The kids are trying to look for our help to navigate all manner of different adolescent challenges. And this is no different. They still need to navigate this challenge and they kind of need our help to do it. And I see it as like your perspective where parents may be hearing put the genie back in the bottle. You're realistic that the genie doesn't go back to, you know, quote Christina Aguilera. And then secondly, if we're going to kind of be their guides, yeah, there might be messaging the parents are getting about age of exposure or what to expose them to or things like that, which it sounds like you're not ruling on like content or exactly when kids are ready. You're saying, but when they get into this, you know, here's where we kind of want to be companions to them. And who do you look to? So obviously, you know, you could say my book is a one-stop shop for this. You only ever need to read that chapter and then you're good. Or like who, who do you look to in terms of like ways that parents can help kids to build these skills? Because you also talk about financial skills, which I thought was a very interesting and different angle, uh, in a kind of parenting book. Like I don't see that often. Yeah. So who, like, who did I look to as like my sources for figuring out what to say in these sections? Is that in that section? Is that what you're kind of asking? Yes. I think that would be it. It's kind of like, where, where do you direct parents if they say, okay, you got me, you know, I agree that my kid needs to learn these skills. Where do I go to find the information to teach these skills? Ah, okay. Okay. Yes. I see what you're saying. Um, you're looking for like a, an, uh, a parent friendly resource to turn to for, for building media literacy, financial literacy, that kind of thing. I wish there was, yeah. Oh, there's not. And this is, and this is an okay thing. We want to say like, it's okay to be like, I don't know parents. Like we know this is important, but we don't necessarily have a Yeah, there isn't. I mean, the Darth actually of, of information on, um, especially like how to build financial literacy, like there's not enough people talking about it. There's not enough, um, there, you know, this really isn't being taught in schools and it's not something parents tend to talk a lot about because we have often a lot of shame about it ourselves. Um, so, so it really is, it really is tricky. And I think also there's no sort of one size fits all approach, right? Um, so, I mean, what I've found, you know, instead of giving like specific frameworks of like, you know, here's what you should be doing with your child at this age. And here's exactly, it was more about approach and, um, and like how we can build skills through engagement with our kids. And so what, I guess one of the big things, and sorry, I realized I'm really not answering your question the way that you asked it, but I think what every parent's going to hear is like, we're in this together. We're navigating. It's a process. It's not a process where like, we've got the answer keys, what this is, but I think this is good. Keep going. Okay. Okay. I think one of the big things is to really be autonomy supportive in how we engage with our kids with these skills. So what I mean by that is like kids really need to feel that they have some agency. And the problem with especially technology is that often because we're so scared, we're reading books that are terrifying or headlines that are terrifying about social media and whatnot. And so we often come down really hard and we say, you know, here's the rules. I don't want to hear what you have to say about it. I, you know, I, I, there's no ifs, ands, or buts here, like you have to, you know, turn off your iPad at 6 p.m. every night, whatever it is. Um, and I think the problem with that is that that kind of approach, regardless of whatever rule you're trying to set, that kind of approach with kids often backfires because then they feel like they're being controlled. And when tweens and teens especially feel like they're being controlled, like they want, they want to rebel. They don't want to listen. And so what I advocate for is like, no matter what kind of framework you want to work with to, you know, sit down with your kids when you're feeling calm to try to have a two-way conversation about it, where you're sharing your concerns, you're asking them for their input. You're trying to understand, you know, what it is they enjoy about TikTok or whatever it is that you are, you know, having a conversation about and, and work with them a little and, you know, a little bit of give and take because then they feel like, oh, I'm being listened to. Again, listening, coming back to listening, how powerful that can be. Um, and I'm more willing then to work with my parents because I think that they, you know, they, they're, they're really respecting me here. And so, yeah, let's work together. Let's make this work. Well, and that, that kind of outline for a collaborative process and thinking about this, because I'll often try to get parents to put themselves in a teen shoes today, which is like, let's say you've got a device in your pocket, which of course has all kinds of capacity for good social connection, all kinds of capacity for exposure to content. We might not want our kids to see, but if you're a kid in kind of a modal school today, you're going into school. If you have a phone, say in middle school or high school, uh, you're putting your phone in a bag or you're required to keep it away the entire day. And then you're getting home and you're being told there's certain boundaries on kind of when you can use it. And for an adult, it's kind of akin to a workplace saying, when you come to work, we're going to put your phone in a locked bag that you have no access to. And that only we do as your bosses at lunch, we're going to let you unlock the bag and check your phone. You can only imagine how adults would react to that and be like, I need information about my kids or I need my partner to be able to contact me. So I'm going to give them a dummy phone in the bag. And then I'm going to have this other phone. And like, you know, we see why teens react the way they do to the boundaries that you cited. But, you know, I think there's, there's so much that's, that's practical about kind of the approach you're taking with an understanding that like you got to have patience for the process. So just on the financial piece, I thought that was pretty interesting because you, you link financial literacy to also kids understanding of more like, of like systemic, like social factors, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because yeah, I think we often think about financial literacy as being just, you know, talking about money, but it's also understanding and talking about inequalities in the world and why they exist. And so, yes. And this, and for me, I think they're very intertwined and we can use conversations about money and financial literacy to help kids understand why the world looks the way it is and why some people have more and some people have less. And, and to also, you know, we know that, that the often the first thing that kids will do is they will sort of interpret differences in, you know, financial status as reflective of character or effort. You know, we, we love growth mindset, right? But the problem sometimes with growth mindset is it makes people think that everything is a reflection of effort. And so, oh, if that person doesn't have that much money, maybe they just didn't try very hard. You know, they're lazy. And so we have to kind of come in and talk about the nuances a little and say, okay, actually, let's talk about some of the structural factors that shape inequality and, and, and how, you know, and how important those are and help kids see this bigger picture and see those nuances, which just, you know, makes them well, I mean, it's more accurate for one thing, but I think it also helps kids understand that like a lot of issues have much more complexity and nuance than we sometimes think they do at first. And this helps also with reducing the, the likelihood for polarization. You know, if we, if we can help kids understand that, like, not everything is as simple as it looks at first glance, things are often nuanced. That's a very, very helpful sort of perspective to have. Well, I, I look at it like, you know, even what you're talking about, like, and we're, we're recording this podcast episode during a time when the federal government is currently shut down over a budget debate. And so it's like, as we're talking about this and you're talking about what you want kids to learn, I'm thinking to myself, like, who's the kid who right now is learning with their parents about like why they spend their money the way they do and like why they don't spend their money on certain things because their budget doesn't allow it. And then like that conversation alone would help every third through 12th grader in this country to understand what is going on at the federal government level and why an argument over how we spend the limited money we have is a key debate from families on up to government levels. So I think you're, you're training an entire civic generation just with small conversations at the dinner table here. And if I can be grandiose. So in, in trying to bring the podcast in for a hard landing, which is my trademark is like, I really like to get into stuff. And then right at the moment where everyone's like, I have 17 more questions for whoever the guest is on the podcast. I'm like, and we're stopping. But, you know, would you say there's any nuggets that we've not gotten to where you're like in any talk I give or any panel I give, I like to say the following one or two things to parents to make sure that I can leave them with these thoughts. Is there any piece of wisdom you want to close us out with? Yeah. I think this is related to some of the things we've already said, but just to, to say it a little differently, I guess. I think that often we shy away from talking about difficult topics with our kids. You know, we think we should protect them, whether we're talking about politics or money or sex or I mean, any of the like big things that are difficult for adults even to, to grapple with, we think, oh, we should not be talking to our kids about them at all. And I think that that's misguided. I think there's often ways, even with pretty young kids to have conversations about pretty tricky topics, and it really serves them to do that because if, you know, they're, they're getting so much information online from what they're overhearing from friends, like they are often learning about these big topics, but from sources that may not be accurate. And so all we're doing, if we don't have these conversations is we're ensuring that the information they're getting is coming from someone other than us, and it may not be trustworthy. So I am just a big fan of, yeah, using everyday experiences, driving by seeing a sign, you know, in somebody's yard and, and, and saying to kids like, hey, do you know what that means? Like, let's talk about what this is and just starting those conversations. They don't have to be long conversations. You don't have to be doing this constantly, but just like, you know, finding opportunities in what we come across in life to have short conversations about the world. And it also communicates to kids that like, we're not afraid to talk about nuanced, difficult, you know, maybe seemingly taboo topics with our kids. So they might be more likely to come to us than when they have questions. That feels like the perfect intersection of the science of parenting, someone who is a parent and is currently in it. And then at the same time, someone who's an award-winning journalist. So I just feel like that was a perfect note to end on. So with that, thank you, Melinda Winter-Moyer for being a guest on the Thriving Kids podcast. Thank you so much, Dave. And we hope to have you on for another episode, because I'm literally like already thinking about like how we can expand on some of these topics in the future. So I hope we'll have you back at some point. I would love to come back. Thank you. Thanks a lot.