The Future of Stable Money | EP. 5: Arbitrum and The Future of FX

Hey everyone, welcome to the future of stable money. I'm Tian Wei, the co-founder and CEO of StraitX. So StraitX is the regulated issuer of the SING dollar backed stablecoin XSGD, and most recently the US dollars backed stablecoin XUSD, which have already been on Binance and Bybit. In this series, we will be exploring the evolving roles of stablecoin in global payment, diving deeper into topics like regulation, on-chain effects, programmability, and how these innovations are shaping the broader financial ecosystem. Today I have on the show, my old friend, Ryan DeSouza, the APAC Partnership Lead at OffChain Labs, which is the initial developer of Arbitrum. Hey Ryan, how are you? It's been a while since we last chat up, actually, which is not too long ago, actually. Very happy to see you here and thanks for coming on to the show. Yes, thanks for having me, Tian Wei. And yep, very good to see you again since our last session together. And yeah, I'm very excited to talk about stablecoins and what Arbitrum is doing in the space. Yeah, I'm very fortunate to be considered a semi-OG in this space, at least in the Asia-Pacific team, and I have been meeting quite a bit of friends and a lot of folks are still very supportive of the industry and still like you being a builder in the space. So I'm going to just jump right into it and kick off a bit. I think the audience will be very happy to know a bit about your background, Ryan, how you find yourself in the world of crypto and ultimately at Arbitrum. I definitely know, but I will let you share your version of this thing. Okay, sure. So I started off as an early-stage venture investor based in San Francisco. That was part of the NOC journey at NUS. When I was there, I was leading some of the fintech investments in the US. There was a time we'd see a lot of robo-investor wealth management platforms in the US that was targeting towards the underbanked community. Increasingly as well, I saw a number of these teams that were leveraging high-interest account with a fintech front end. As I dug deeper into it, I realized a lot of these were using DeFi on the back end. Fast forward, I realized I think the more exciting part in crypto is being a builder. So I came back to Singapore, and I'm very fortunate to be able to join the very early StraitsX team. Working with yourself, Tianwei, and the rest of the team in growing the XSGD as well as XIDR stablecoin back in the days. Beyond that, I think I joined the Offchain Labs team. So we are the initial developers of Arbitrum, leading their APAC partnerships in the fintech vertical. So working with asset managers, stable financiers. Awesome. Actually, one of the happy things I always have to share being a so-called 10-year OG in this space itself is kind of already building a bit of StraitsX mafia. A lot of the alumni like yourself have been doing very well in this space. And they're in a corner to build great things. And I think being co-founder or fellow leads in their own vertical and right, that at least something that keep me having a smile and run to common faces around the space. So happy to see you around again. Maybe we dive straight into what I think both of us are very passionate about, which is I started StraitsX about, I think it's a brand five years ago. The areas that at least we as a company in StraitsX, which is the issuer of one of the world's first, I mean, still the world's first, SingDollar stablecoin. And of course, now XUSD, which is the US dollar backed stablecoin regulated by MES out of Singapore itself, is that we see a lot of potential in the cross-border payment space of how this is a killer product that is needed because of our experience and background being in the cross-border payments space for the last 10 years itself. And we're seeing stablecoin evolve beyond what I call a simple dollar pack to become an actual building blocks for on-chain effects, which is an area that I'm truly excited because to give context is I think you probably heard it from me itself is I feel that right now, the market is moving to everybody is thinking about on centralized exchanges. At least you see us listing on Binance and on Bybit is that exchanges are starting to realize that the next frontier for the exchange trading related activity are all going to be related to stablecoin to stablecoin of a different type or different currency trading itself. So stablecoin FX is a big few, which I think will be a frontier for a lot of exchanges, which we will stand to benefit as cross-border payment player. But what I really feel the future is, is going to be in decentralized finance and more specifically on-chain FX and exchanges, which truly helps to unlock a lot more opportunity for developers around the world to simply build something in their garage, which is how I started my company 10 years ago. Right. So I would love to hear your take, you know, now that you're at OpChain Labs, which is the Initial Builder Arbitrum leading L2 space. What is your take on this shift itself? Yes. So I think great point that you brought up. So stablecoins, you know, when we, when I first joined this RedStacks team, I think it started off as like a primary medium of exchange. And the primary use case was really around like trading. How do you get in and out of like crypto and your local currency? But increasingly, we are also seeing more fintechs today utilize stablecoin to actually move money around, be it domestically or globally. And beyond moving these assets on a public chain, we have also seen teams leverage DeFi rails to move between like different assets, be it stablecoins or even crypto to stablecoins on-chain. So one example that we have is, you know, we've been looking at some of these Uniswap volumes. So for example, Uniswap does over $20 billion in money transaction volume on Arbitrum. And as we dug deeper into some of these granular metrics, what we found was stablecoin transaction volumes actually accounts for $12 to $16 billion of the overall transfers that happens on Arbitrum. And one thing we noticed as well is the type of transactions. So as we broke it down into micro transactions, that maybe might be like less than $10. The large transaction volume, so transactions that are above $10,000 per transfer, actually accounts for over 90% of all these volumes that we see on Arbitrum. So that's one interesting metric that we have found. And within the team at Arbitrum as well, we've been focused on how do we grow out this stablecoin FX vertical. So, and we believe there are a few enablers for that. So the first one is how we onboard different currency stablecoins into the Arbitrum system. So, and these are high-quality issuers, like sort of, you know, StraitsX, XS3D. At the same time, these are regulated players in their respective jurisdiction. You know, giving some of these cross-border companies the regulatory comfort to be utilizing these stablecoins as a medium of exchange. So aside from SingDollar, as well as the XUSD that StraitsX launched, we've also been working with partners in Asia that are launching like Yen Stablecoin and soon Hong Kong Dollar Stablecoin. In LetM as well, working with large fintechs such as Bitso with a Mexican peso stablecoins. And also in Euro with MECA-compliant stablecoins. And the goal for us is how do we build out these rails? With StraitsX, you know, your core expertise is Southeast Asia, you know, SingDollar, US dollars. But as your clients look for demand for other currencies, how do we enable them to move these stablecoins seamlessly on Arbitrum? The second one is the liquidity of stablecoin. So today, the stablecoin market is primarily denominated in USD stablecoins. We have over 8.9 billion of stablecoins on Arbitrum. And one thing interesting about that is it's split evenly between USDC and USDT. Why that is important is it's different user segment. So for a USDC holder, that might be someone, you know, maybe in the US, maybe an institutional player. USDT, we have seen, you know, greater adoption in emerging markets in Southeast Asia, in LetM or even Africa. The last one that could be interesting for stablecoin issuers when we talk about the conversions of, you know, TradFi and DeFi as well as like bringing on-chain FX is with a new product that we launched about four months ago called TimeBoost. TimeBoost is a transaction ordering policy. Today, Arbitrum block times are 250 milliseconds. So one of the quickest out there. But what this enables traders, you know, market makers, HFT, EMC do is they can actually pay a priority fee for their transactions to be included further again in the block. So this could mean 100 milliseconds. Why this is important for a stablecoin issuer is as they work on different on-chain trading strategies, the main one being sex tax arbitrage, as a stablecoin issuer deploy this liquidity pool on a Uniswap, for example, and should there be a deviance between, you know, what the off-chain FX rate is, they are able to come in and restore the pack very quickly. At the same time, you know, earning themselves a tidy profit. And today we have actually generated over 4 million USD worth of fees from this TimeBoost. So that is being utilized. And lastly, for stablecoin issuer as well, it drives natural and organic transaction volume to these pools. So one of the challenges for a stablecoin issuer is where should I set up the pool, which ecosystem, which protocol, and how am I going to generate those organic trading volume? And we believe some of these sex tax arbitrage could be the initial frontier of that. Yeah, actually, you're already touching some of the stuff that we are also seeing. I think first, I think on transaction on-chain, we are seeing more and more SME and regional players around the region, which we operate in, like in Singapore and Indonesia, using stablecoin as a means to make B2B payments. So besides the scan and pay thing that we talked quite a bit about in a couple of different podcasters that, you know, we partner with Grab and Alipay to enable tourists to come to Singapore to scan and pay at any Grab merchants and behind the scenes using stablecoin for transactional level settlement. What we are actually seeing also happening at scale, which is what I think the on-chain data is really showing, like transaction on more than $10,000 or more, 90% of transactions are done that way. I think that itself is most probably also coming in from the B2B use cases that we are seeing on the ground where a lot of global supplier and trades are being done and settled with stablecoins on-chain directly at a P2P basis. So that is definitely in line with what we are also seeing. But you actually mentioned a bit on this itself, and I was touching on it about it, is why I'm really excited is that the democratization of DeFi and give real access and real impact around the world. Because, you know, I grew up in the era that, you know, when I started a company, everything is about API. There was a trend that it's the API of the world. We're trying to break application program interface to unlock developer potential to be able to build services. But as a 10-year-old startup, whatever you want to call it, is that you realize that there is still gatekeeper there, right? You still need to get access. And if you're in the regulator space like I am, you need to be onboarded by a regulator entity that needs to then figure out what's your licenses before you even have the permission to build things. And as a developer at heart, this is completely now different. If you have access to a decentralized financial ecosystem with stablecoin and on-chain FX capability, you may be able to have a one man, you know, building out a product in a garage, which is like how I started 10 years ago, right? That itself is truly, I think, enabling. So I think you mentioned a bit on, you know, different stablecoin coming out. Maybe you can touch a bit on what are you seeing in practice on Arbitrum itself? Some of the space that you mentioned, it alluded to a bit more on like guestless transaction, how user experience is being optimized by individual developer, which break down this core accessibility financial barrier in the market itself, and how Arbitrum is approaching this uniquely in your ecosystem. Yeah, exactly. Just to your earlier point around like, you know, from API base, I think we went from like softwares eating the world to like stablecoins eating the world. So I would say crypto is similar to like the early days of like the fintech, or my goal is to serve some of these like unbanked population in segments that would have otherwise been like too expensive for like the incumbents to serve. And where we've been seeing, you know, the financial democratization is actually one is access to dollar saving products for folks in emerging markets. So one example we have is with a team called Eldorado. So Eldorado is one of the fintech super apps in LetM that provides stablecoin rails that are integrated with local payment methods such as PIX that allows users to hold USD stablecoins at the same time earn yield on it. The other in emerging markets that we have seen is the likes of like Spico. So Spico, they issue both USD as well as EUR stablecoin, and they actually tokenize over 180 million worth of EUR T-bills on Arbitrum, and they are offering that to their users through their own fintech app. Besides the, you know, some of these teams offering, you know, using stablecoins to offer RWAs to their end users, we have also seen teams think about the intersection of both DeFi as well as TradFi. So we have centralized exchanges like Gemini launching their own product whereby they allow users to deposit stablecoin as a savings product to their Gemini earned wallet that gives them exposure to some of these strategies on a more focal. Beyond that, what we have seen as well on the payment side is how do we enable payments to be used across different geographies? So for example, there are teams in Europe such as like Fiat24 and Bleak Money. So Bleak Money guys are like ex-Revolute. They understand the fintech space, and now they want to implement stablecoin rails to actually allow users to go and spend money seamlessly. So they have a crypto cards product. What's interesting for them is the settlement. The settlement is being settled in EUR stablecoins, and they did mention to us that the focus for them is they want to find regulatory compliant partners. And I expect this to extend into Asia as well as more teams issue, you know, crypto cards product. It'll be settled in local currency with the merchants, you know, utilizing XSGD. And the last piece- Introduce them to us. Yeah, we actually are one of the largest right now. You're definitely right. I think on the card issuing space, that's where it's one of the highest growth that we have seen in years, which is basically players around the world that's issuing out stablecoin, BAC, Visa, or Mastercard debit card itself. Because this really, you know, make the world smaller. Because traditionally, we have been a Visa principle being sponsored out of Singapore for almost three years now. And we are seeing how the market has shifted slightly because of this, is that traditionally the card issuing product, at least if you are thinking of issuing a Visa or Mastercard product, most of the players out there or the e-wallet players out there like Grab and others, see this as a customer acquisition cost because it brings about utility. And the utility leads to users using your app daily basis and it's getting sticky. Then you can upsell other product itself. The major problem here is what you mentioned earlier on is about licensing and also getting the cost of funds in, right? How does you top up into your e-wallet? You need to have local rails itself. But with the enter of the stablecoin, BAC, Visa, and Mastercard debit card, it changes the game completely because what we are seeing right now in the last just six to 12 months with the Genius Act passing, is that the excitement that people figure out that even though you can only target less than 2% or 3% of the people are crypto native in the world. With stablecoin and a Visa card program partner like us that's allowed by Visa to issue Visa card worldwide, you basically are able to go global from day one out of any country you are based in because 1% of any country is small, but 1% of the whole world is a very large audience. So there are a lot of issuers that are basically issuing up Neobank apps, basically give you a wallet that you can deposit in stablecoin, which from a cost of fund perspective doesn't cost you anything to receive stablecoin. So they are already at an advantage that allow users to spend this stablecoin via the existing Visa or Mastercard network, which is over like 200 million merchants around the world, right? That itself is a game changer here and immediately democratize this product offering worldwide and folks are able to benefit immediately because if the cost of fund is low, it's very cheap to onboard this customer, then you can give them ability to spend it worldwide. The unique economy will be something profitable from day one. And we are definitely one of the largest bin sponsor for stablecoin card issuer out of Singapore or actually Asia Pacific right now. And I believe one of the projects building on Arbitrum as well, Red Dot Bay, they're utilizing like straight text to do the card issuance. So yes, that's one of the partners as well in Asia that we're seeing, enabling users not only to save, but also to spend with crypto. Yeah. And on the last point around the guest fee sponsorship. So just to highlight some of the work we are doing in the space. So on the Arbitrum Foundation site, they have a guest fee sponsorship program. Like what you mentioned Tianwei, how do we find these early stage developers that want to experiment with stablecoins and support them? So we're actually sponsoring the first 100,000 transactions on Arbitrum. They don't have to think about costs. And beyond that, we actually acquired a team at Offchain Labs called ZeroDev. So ZeroDev, they're one of the largest account abstraction and smart wallet providers. They have over 4 to 5 million teams that are using these smart accounts. And it enables users to log in to some of these non-custodial wallet using social login. And for enterprises that are thinking of enabling their users to spend in stablecoins, but abstracting away some of these guest fees. So yeah, I think some of these allows us as well to push forward a new era of on-chain usability and help developers to create experience for them to utilize stablecoins everywhere. Yeah, definitely the same thing that we're seeing right now in the space. So actually, as what we alerted, maybe just take a segue into what, besides stablecoin, I think another big area that a lot of excitement are also coming in right now is about real world asset tokenization or what we call RWA right now. And how I'm seeing here, at least from the clients that reach out to us, is stablecoin is increasingly seen as the interface between this trade buy and the on-chain finance part of the world, whereby you need to then get yourself into a tokenized finance product. I would love to hear or take what you are seeing right now in Arbitrum or your perspective here. Yes, on the RWA side. So, you know, building on top of the deep liquidity and the diversity of stablecoins we have on Arbitrum, we have seen more tier one asset managers think about launching some of these tokenized funds on Arbitrum across a range of assets. So we have treasuries, money market, but also more interesting products, such as private credit and equities. So some examples would be, you know, Invesco have their private credit fund on Arbitrum. It's an iSenior fund with daily liquidity. This is unique because traditionally private credit funds have like quarterly redemptions, which may not make sense in the DeFi context. On the tokenized equities fund as well, we made the announcement with Robinhood that they are building up their tokenized equities product on the Arbitrum public chain. And in future, they plan to actually enable self-custodial. So what this means is you could hold a tokenized equity, you know, use it within DeFi, maybe borrow some excess GD to spend without, you know, exiting your equities position on chain. And I think this is a very powerful enabler as well, because there will be like second order effects or stablecoin issuers, as well as like fintechs that are building within ecosystem. One other thing that I thought could be interesting is the security. So when we talk about RWAs, we think about, you know, why would an asset manager deploy on Arbitrum? And one of the main selling point is the security. So it's a running joke that we have internally, no asset manager or, you know, large fintech, no one's going to lose their job if they deploy an asset on Ethereum. But when it comes to picking out the second chain, that's where they have to think about commercialization as well as scalability. So where Arbitrum stands out as a layer two is we post the call data. So all the transactions that do on Arbitrum, we compress that, batch that and post it to Ethereum. What that means is if the Arbitrum chain ever goes down for whatever reason, you can still go back to Ethereum and recall all your transactions from Genesis, knowing that all your data still resides on Ethereum and Ethereum is being used as the security layer. Yeah, definitely. I think that's one of the most compelling use cases. I'm an OG now from this space and an early Ethereum supporter, and I still see it as one of the so-called OG and the real world use cases of a scale that from enterprise perspectives, maturing, complete and enterprise perspectives of a chain that most of developers will be happy to use without losing their job. But I think that's something that Arbitrum definitely stands out differently compared to all the different L2s that we are seeing out there. So maybe to also give a plug here while we wrap things up, and I would love to hear what is your view, and also give you an opportunity to give a plug to fellows, folks that have been new in this space, because a lot of my audience are probably not as a Web3 native. They'll be thinking about, if I were to come in and develop on a new chain, what chain should I be using? How do I be able to justify to my bosses that I'm doing things on a new L2 itself? There should be a few quick one or two points that I hope you'll be able to give to tell people out of all the different L2 chains out there, why they want to choose Arbitrum. I can share, right? People have asked, why StraightX, Sablecoin? Why XSGD? Why XUSD? I can immediately tell you that even in the world of USDC and USDT, which are the dominant player, I think we have stand out in three different ways. One, of course, is regulatory compliance. I think out of the two mentioned, Sablecoin, we are the only one regulated right now, licensed out of a tier one jurisdiction like Singapore, which is neutral, right? We are not US, we are not China, right? So this itself give a unique positioning from a regulation perspective for our Sablecoin. The other side of it beside that is payment and banking support, right? We are also quite unique being a 10-year payment player. So this is not, we are not a Sablecoin company and not another Sablecoin company. We're actually a payment player with 10 years of history of operating real world payments and very strong banking relationship. So in this case, you will see our Sablecoin, XUSD, and XSGD being backed up by tier one banks like DBS and Sena Chartered itself, right? And last but not least is what I was alluding to itself is we are probably the only Sablecoin issuer actively exploring and using and actually running real world use cases like the cross-border payment that you see in Alipay and Grab, right? So that's a quick high level elevator pitch that I always typically give people why choose to work with StraitX or with XUSD or XSGD. We'd love to hear a take on what is it that I as a developer, why should I be developing on Arbitrum? Yes. So aside from the security that I mentioned previously, one thing I like to tell developers and enterprises that are building on Arbitrum is think of Arbitrum as a platform. What that means is we have one of the top five most successful blockchains, public blockchains by economic activity based on like DeFi, TPL, Stablecoin, TPL. But also as you build out different tooling, as you think about the future of your product, there might be instances whereby you might not want to build on a public chain for different reasons, be it privacy, compliance, or regulatory reason. And the Arbitrum stack enables teams to build up their own environment using whatever that they have built before. So one example is with Robinhood. They wanted to go to market very quickly. They launched the tokenized equities on the Arbitrum public chain, but they have shared that it is their intention as well in future to launch Robinhood chain, which is also developed out of the Arbitrum stack. And it allows them to move very quickly between the public chain as well as the Robinhood chain. The second reason is a product we have called Stylus. So we view EVM as the floor, not the ceiling. What that means is teams and developers can actually use other programming languages to build on Arbitrum. Not only Solidity, you can use Rust, C, C++. And we are speaking with fintechs and financial institutions or even payment companies. This is especially important for them because as they scale and as their on-chain footprint scales, the default thinking is, if I want to build on Arbitrum, I need to scale up the number of Solidity developers I have. With Arbitrum, that's not the case. They are able to use some of these other languages that has guest key as well as memory saving to build on Arbitrum, at the same time, be compatible with the EVM space. And the last one is actually the ecosystem. So how do we think about some of these different use cases as you bring different products on chain? So we are seeing the convergence of some of these like TrackFi and DeFi. And Arbitrum, we host some of the deepest liquidity across both RWAs and DeFi. So it's a natural conversion points for some of these teams that are thinking of different use cases on chain. Thanks for the heads up on that. So maybe on the closing side, maybe switching to be more lighthearted one. So something of one of the favorite thing from a lot of my audiences, so I'll just quick fire around. I'm going to just ask you questions and so we can answer them. And after that, I'll give you an opportunity to ask me a question, right? Because that's what I think our audience like. So maybe I jump right to it, which is the first crypto you ever bought? So the first crypto is Bitcoin, but interestingly, I actually used the straight sex Rails to actually on-premise SingDollar to get exposure to Bitcoin. This is like very early. Thank you. Thank you for blowing it on. A lot of Singaporeans have similar experience. Okay, the next one, right? So what is the most underrated DeFi project on Arbitrum in your opinion right now? I would say there's a team called Ostium. They allow you to do, there are pub decks for RWA. So you could trade like FX on chain. You could trade some of these ETFs or commodities. And I think, you know, for stablecoin issuers looking to issue a stablecoin instead of Arbitrum, they could be a good venue for traders to hedge their position as well from the spot decks. Wow, okay. I will check them out. What is the name again? Ostium, O-S-T-I-U-M. Okay, we'll put it up there later on. Okay, another interesting one, right? One thing about that Tradefy don't understand about stablecoin yet in your opinion. So I think they just don't understand how large this could grow because it could rewrite some of these underlying banking system that has been built up for like years. Some of these corresponding banking system, because today with stablecoins, you can go from like peer-to-peer or even from like B2B. You don't have to rely on some of these intermediaries. No, I recently heard about one of this very good explanation from folks is that, because people have been saying that, hey, what is the excitement about stablecoin? It's just digital money, right? And we have been hearing money has been digitized already for the last 10 years, right? But I do like the fact that one of the speaker that I was listening to was talking about it is that actually stablecoin is not really digital money. Stablecoin is digital cash because it actually represent cash the way the old school cash that I grew up with, that it a bit better and whereby you just hold it in your hand, you go to that place, you drop it off, it's done, right? In a way that money used to be moving in the traditional way, you take a suitcase, you take a plane. It's solid, it actually exchange hand and settle immediately and it gives you ability to use it. But right now, it's actually a digital version of that because unlike digital money, which we are all used to, it's simply a ledger that is in privately held that way and it's just a plus or minus. But now it's because it's on a public ledger, it's able to represent cash better in the digital fund. So I think that's a major game changer that if you think about it, will have a lot better use cases than digital money. Yep, exactly. Okay, maybe another area, right? Which region, like you've been now, now the Asia Pacific for Option Labs, which region are you most excited about for DeFi growth itself? So I would say Asia and specifically Southeast Asia because we see the diversity of different markets across Southeast Asia. And when we look at DeFi growth, there are a lot of different use cases with different local currency stable coins. So the goal is how do you convert some of these like e-wallets here in Asia that are so fragmented onto a blockchain rails that can be interoperable and composable with DeFi through be it a unified stable coin or through a bunch of local currency stable coins in the region. Okay, so maybe one last question so that you can then, it's your turn to ask me anything you want to take. One bold prediction you have for stable coin in the next 12 months. So I think the non-dollar stable coin space is going to explode. I think, you know, the world is comfortable with USD stable coins. Everyone's rushing to use a USD stable coin. But when you think about conglomerates in, you know, emerging markets or in localized markets, how are they thinking about moving money on chain? And then we'll see, you know, them potentially partnering with some of these leading stable coin issuers in the space. And, you know, you guys have set the precedent for that by partnering with Grab and also Alipay in Singapore. Definitely, as I mentioned, I'm almost like a broken record for the last five years. I expect a lot of different stable coin in the next few years. And I think it's coming through very quickly. Awesome, Ryan, it's your turn, right? Ask me anything you want. Yes, sure. So aside from like SingDollar, USD that you guys have issued, so, you know, putting aside all these like regulatory compliance, if you could pick another currency to launch a stable coin for straight sex, like which would it be? Yeah, I think if you see us, you know, we have launched both the SingDollar stable coin, which is where we first started, and then the Indonesian Rupiah stable coin, which I'm still passionate about, given our footprint in Indonesia as a business. And most recently, a US dollar stable coin, given the world dominance that they actually still have as a world currency reserve currency. If there's no regulations, like without a doubt, it will be the Chinese Yuan stable coin. I'm a Chinese, I'm natively still Chinese. And I actually see that this is where there will be a huge game changer if there's a Chinese Yuan denominated stable coin. There's still a lot of regulatory challenge and policy challenge, but I do see huge potential in that space and happy to be involved in one way or another. Yeah, that's definitely an exciting currency to watch out for. And maybe last question is, when you look at different like monetary policy, especially here in like Asia, how do you think like stable coin can be an enabler? Okay, wow. That's a more elevated one question itself. Actually, if you look at it, maybe just from a Singapore context, right? Unlike a US-centric system, which is the interest-based one, Singapore currency system is not based on interest rate, right? It's on exchange FX rate, right? So the government, I mean, in this case, the monetary authority of Singapore, together with GIC and Temasek, hold a large amount of foreign reserve, right? And that is actually, in my opinion, one of the reason why Singapore was, you know, in my opinion, a beacon in terms of regulatory direction for stable coin in this part of the world is that the geniuses or the authority over there have really thought about how this will affect FX and taking a lead for having their own stable coin regime and attracting capital, especially foreign capital, in this case, US dollars, which is what we are issuing out of Singapore, makes Singapore uniquely as a country to benefit from onshore US dollars reserve policy, which will help to bolster up its capability to defend its currency in terms of a DPAC. I think that same strategy should be the playbook that regulators around the world should be thinking about. By regulating and coming out with clarity in the framework of issuing stable coin and supporting companies to issue stable coin out of their home country, they're actually attracting a lot of foreign capital both of investments to fund company, but in terms of treasury management, like what is happening right now with XUSD hitting about 90 million of circuiting supply and hopefully across 100 million soon, there's actually 100 million of US dollars now in Singapore banking system. And we're hoping that that will become a billion dollars soon. Amazing. Yeah, that's something I'm looking forward to as well. Awesome. We can still blow the Singapore flag together as a fellow Singaporean. So thanks, Ryan. It's been great having you on the show. I'm pretty sure we'll catch up with you after this again. And again, thanks to our viewer who managed to stay tuned and watch till the end. And thank you for joining us on this episode of The Future of Stable Money. Yeah, thanks for having me, Dan Ray.