Taraji P. Henson & Ellen Pompeo | Actors on Actors - Full Conversation

So Ellen, since we've been living with your character for 15 seasons now, how much of that was on the page and what did you bring to her? Well, I'll say when I first read the script, the thing that stood out the most was it was the lead character, right? Which before then I had been in a bunch of movies, but just, you know, it's the girlfriend or the wife and I had never been presented with a lead character before and I thought, oh wow, she has a real job, she's a doctor. And she's the lead of this show and that's something I hadn't seen before, so I was excited about that. And then I think, listen, Taraji being on the show for 15 seasons, I think the nature of how she's evolved is just because I'm 15 years older. Right, absolutely. You know, it's just, you know, I started off not married, no children, got married, have children, so I think the character has evolved, you know, as my life has. Yeah, it makes sense. Fine, I'm mad. Because I moved away. Because you ran away. Because you have never fought for anyone or anything that you cared for in your life. When I gave you a piece of my liver, you said we would try, right? You said we could get to know each other. What about you, when you first read the pilot for Empire? She scared me, actually, because she popped off the page and I just, I was afraid because I thought, you know, oh, the NAACP, they're gonna get me for this one. I mean, she calls one son who's gay the F-bomb, and she beats one son with a broom. I just, this is something that has never been shown on national television, and certainly, you know, by a black woman, you know, and when you're a person of color, you have to be careful about the roles you pick, because you want to uplift the people and represent, but I'm also an actress to the bone, and I don't judge. And just like it may be uncomfortable to play characters like this, they're needed. They're not, someone out there will identify with this person and maybe learn something, maybe learn to be a better person. So once I got past the fear, I was like, okay, I was able to see her and really see her. And I remember telling Danny Strong and Lee Daniels, the executive producers and co-creators of the show, I told them something that they didn't even realize about Cookie, because I had to make, I didn't want just black people to identify with her. I wanted every mother in the world to understand this woman, you know, and the sacrifices that only mothers can make. And I told them that it's interesting that she went to jail and Lucius did it. They were both dirty, they were both selling crack, you know, but she chose to go to jail because she knew that Lucius had the talent. And what they were both trying to do was spare their sons from becoming statistics. You know, yes, they sold drugs, yes, that's horrible, but they did it to save the generations behind them. You know, so once I got that in my head, I think that was translated in people in the world, I mean, other mothers and people just was able to identify with her. For sure, yeah, and that was an interesting piece of, you know, you didn't really see that. Right. I mean, first of all, the character was very original to begin with, but you don't typically see the woman going to prison, you see the man going to prison, especially a black man. Right. I think automatically he'd get locked up very quickly. Yep. My college friends, they called them, called us animals. Well, did you tell those ignorant asses that just because someone makes a mistake doesn't make them less than human? And what about the people inside that didn't do a damn thing but be born black or brown? You know what, I'm not doing this today. I think that Caucasian girls, Caucasian actresses don't really understand the different nuanced struggles that you have as a black woman and the roles you choose and what you have to be careful for, what you're sidestepping, what you're afraid of, what you want to make sure gets out there. It's a whole different layer of difficulty that I don't think, you know, I certainly didn't understand when I started my show. I knew that we were breaking ground and I knew that we were doing special things by showing people of color as doctors, which hadn't been done on television in a really long time. And so that's so important that you mention that and unless it's, it took me a long time to sort of watch and try to learn. No, it's not like anybody's gonna tell me this is what our struggle is and this is what we go through. And you sort of assume that people of color, if they're working, you know, I know for me, I will just say I assumed, you know, for people of color, if they were working more than me, then what was the issue? What is the issue? Because it's not your experience and I think especially when we're young actresses, you're so busy just struggling, trying to get any role you can or trying to get a job. You know, you don't even have time to maybe think about and have empathy toward what someone else goes through. So I've had a tremendous education in not always the most pleasant of ways. I've had to sort of just observe and learn and have a lot of uncomfortable moments, which is fine because I'm happy to have uncomfortable moments as long as I've learned. Yeah. And growth is uncomfortable. So thank you for talking about that because it's very important. I love that you are aware and you're acknowledging because, I mean, it's interesting when we first saw each other, you were like, oh my God, girl, I've Googled you and all of the movies that you've done and I started thinking about that because it's something that I've been thinking about later, wanting to take a break, you know, because when I booked Empire, you know, I had a momentum going that I had been waiting my entire career for. So I seized every moment, every opportunity, but then I thought about it. Why are you working so hard? It's because if I was getting 5 million a gig, a movie, if I was getting just 5 million a movie or 10 million a movie, I wouldn't work so much, you know? I'm working like that because I have bills to pay. I have dreams, I have aspirations, I have things that I want to get. But if I was getting that kind of money, I wouldn't work like that. I really wouldn't. So it's like, I have to get it in, you know? And that's, you know, remarkable that yes, you're getting these amazing opportunities because of Empire, but for me, the performance that just stands out is Hustle & Flow. And that was, I don't know what year that was, but I mean, you know, your quote should have shot up after that. Did your quote shoot up after that? No, it did not. It did not. And what about after Empire? Sorry to interrupt you. Yeah, after Empire. See, because it was proving my worth. I think the industry knew I was talented. I mean, you know what I mean? They got that part, but it's about money. It's about, are you bankable? Can you open a film? Will I get what I put in this film back, you know? So I had to continuously prove that. And it's like, I've just been trying to prove it and prove it, and that's why I've worked so hard. Because it's like, I haven't proved it yet. Okay, let me go back to the drawing board, you know? No, actually, I didn't get paid. I was asking for half a million. I didn't get paid that until I did my first Tyler Perry film. He was the first person that broke the standard that I was getting paid for films, and he gave me $500,000. And that's a black show creator. Yes, Tyler Perry. And then right after that, I did Karate Kid, so I had a quote now, because up until then, I didn't have a quote. You know, Hustle & Flow was an independent, so we all got, what, Schedule F or something like that. But then the other thing that, I've spoken about this before, and I don't know if you agree with me or not, but it appears to me that very often, actors are sort of lured with the opportunity of creativity. This is an unbelievable character, so you should wanna do this. It shouldn't be about the money. And actors very often, the producers think that you can be lured by the prospect of a shiny gold trophy, and then you may get nominated for this, so we don't need to pay you. And I think that very often, a lot of actors do fall into that trap of like, well, I don't need my money. This is gonna get critical acclaim. I'll get this award, that award, this award. And I think you have to make a distinction between yes, I wanna be creative, yes, I wanna play incredible roles. This is me speaking, someone who hasn't done anything else in 15 years, mind you. My lens, what I see, is from a paid parody situation, I think they try to lure people with creative choices and trophies. I wish I could say that, but literally for me, it's about a job, another opportunity to, I was never in a position where I could not take a job. You know what I mean? It just, by the grace of God, they have all been really good characters to sink my teeth in, but it was never a situation where I was like, I'm not gonna do that. Now, I'm finally there 20 years later. I'm finally to the place where I can go, oh, you know what, I feel like I've done that, or they're not paying enough. I'm finally there. Before, I could not, you know, when Benjamin Button didn't wanna pay me, I was just asking 500,000, when they didn't wanna give me that, I couldn't go, I'm not doing this movie. And I wasn't thinking about critical acclaim, because in my mind, it was Brad Pitt and Cate Blanchett that were the shoe-ins. I was just happy to be in their company. You know what I mean? And then I had to swallow my pride, and I had to, you know, just give the best performance that I could, because, you know, that's what I always try to do, and walk away. And then when they started saying the Oscar buzz, I was like, me? You know? So, you know, I never chase the award. I never, you can't lure me. Like, if I don't see a value for myself out of it, then there's no point. Right. But it's incredible that, look at how, your body of work is just, you know, breathtaking. Thank you. And the fact that, you know, you still feel that way. Yeah. You know, that you have to take a job. You know, it's impossible to have this conversation without talking about race. Yeah. It really is. It would be nice to just sit here, and feel like we don't have to have it. But it's such a significant piece. It is. Of pay parity. And it's not gonna change until privilege reaches across the table and help. That's the only way it changes. You know, otherwise we're playing the same rerun. Right. Where it's the same story all the time. And I don't like to harp on how bad it's been for me. It hasn't been bad. I've worked. You know, I've worked and I have a great body of work. But the only narrative that I wish I could change is my money. It's almost like they want this incredible performance for a discount price. Right. You know? And do you have conversations with other white actresses about what they're getting paid? Or when you come on. What's, how's your experience changed now? After doing Empire and getting your quote up? Now when you, do you get offers? Or do you? Oh yeah, I totally get offers. So, do you, are you able to sort of? Oh yeah. Oh, we play hardball. But you know, I'm still getting, well you know, studios just aren't paying that much anymore for this or that. Or how I get it so that, you know, they'll give me enough to keep me satisfied is that, oh it's a low budget film. It's only for 17 million dollars. It's only for, you know, cause that's another struggle. You know, the black movies, we really don't get the big, you know, budgets. So that's another way that I'm never gonna see that five or 10 million. You know, I have to wait until Scorsese calls or. Right. You know, someone with a, you know, a big franchise film. You know, that's my struggle now. I want a franchise movie. Okay, you hear that? She wants a franchise movie. Who's calling? Let's go. Come on. Let me ask you a question. Because this is on my mind because, you know, we're going into our sixth season of Empire. How did you do 15? Was there any moment where you were like, oh child, I want off this bus? There were many moments when I wanted off the bus. And I will say, it never sort of, it's funny how it works. It's like, I never sort of wanted off the bus in a year that I could get off the bus. Right. You know? It just sort of lined up that in years, and you know, we had a serious, serious culture problem on Grey's for a good number of years. I would say the first 10 years. We had serious, serious culture issues. Very bad behavior, really toxic work environment. And I had my daughter season six. And I think that's when things really started to change for me because I had someone other than myself to think about. So at that point, and also I was 40 years old, and this was still aging myself now, but here it goes, 10 years ago, right? So I thought, oh my goodness, at 40 years old, where am I ever gonna get this kind of money? Right. And I need to take care of my kid, so I'm gonna stay. And it's just so remarkable how the business has changed, you know, in the last decade. Yeah. And so then, after season 10, I would say we had some big shifts in front of the camera, behind the camera, and then it became my goal to turn that set around and to have an experience there that I could be happy about and proud about because we had had so much turmoil for 10 years. And so then my mission became, this can't be all this show was, just, you know, fantastic to the public in a disaster behind the scenes. And I think Shonda Rhimes and I, who's the creator of the show, showrunner at the time, decided that we wanna rewrite the ending of this story and we wanna turn the page and start a new chapter and turn the culture around behind the curtain. And we brought in Debbie Allen as our executive producer and director, our directing executive producer, and we made some changes. And we had to reimagine what behind the scenes of Grey's Anatomy looked like. And so for the past five years, we've been on a mission to change the story behind the scenes of Grey's Anatomy. And so that's what's kept me. Well, also, you know, Patrick Dempsey left the show in season 11. And I think that the studio and the network believed the show could not possibly go on without the male lead. So I had a mission to sort of prove that it could. So yeah, I was on a double mission, one to prove to the studio and the network that I could carry the show and the show could continue. And of course we have an incredible ensemble cast and there's some amazing originals that are still with us in all. We're a big team and a big family and it's all of our efforts together as a team. But just with respect to pay and the numbers on the call sheet, right? Because the numbers are what jam everybody up, right? We're all assigned numbers, which gets us all into hot water at different times. Can I ask, were you and Patrick getting paid the same? Not when we started. In the beginning, absolutely not, no. So when did you ever become Favorite Nations? We became Favorite Nations, I would say season three. Season three. Yeah, he was being paid almost double what I was being paid for in the beginning. But the interesting thing about that was, is that he had had a television quote. I had never done TV. I know. I know that story! Get me, Jim! I didn't have a TV quote. So that's what they said. Is there wine in this cup? He's done 13 pilots. Well, none of them have gone. I'm sorry. But I don't understand why, but okay. But I didn't even realize that until we were renegotiating season three and this is when I found out that information. No one was offering that up. Right, right. I know that story, that's common. That story sounds about like mine. Let's see, when Cookie popped off that page and all those tweets were about Cookie, I said, it's time to renegotiate. Can everybody sit down at the table? Right, good for you, yes. Yeah, but it still was a struggle. It was still a struggle and it was like about, was it the second season? I think it was the second season is when we became equal. You know, but, or was it the third? I can't remember. Right, yeah, she came out of prison in the second season, right? No, first season, the first episode, she came out of prison. Oh, right, but they did flashbacks. We did a lot of flashbacks. Right, right, right, okay. But good for you for, see, I don't think that I would have had the self-esteem or the courage if I found that information out season two to do something about it. I don't know that I would've. I would've felt so grateful just to be there. No, the grateful days were over for me. I know Terrence. It's like, I told y'all to hire him. Yes, yes, yes, because you worked together in Hustle and Flow. Everybody knows that story. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, and yes, I didn't, you know, you can't, I don't want to discredit this man's work because he did have a hell of a resume. He's been doing this much longer than me and yes, he was the star of a television show. So, you know, I gave him that credit and then when Cookies started rising, I was like, no, give me my credit, you know? Right, right, of course. Because you don't know when and how long a show's gonna last. I had the moment right here in front of me and I was like, give me my money now. I'm not gonna wait, you know? And I think I'd been in the game long enough to know the numbers game and how it's played. Right. You know, and I knew at this time, you know, Cookie had become iconic at this point. Now you need her, so now I need my money. Right, right, good for you, good for you. See, you know, my husband says, Stella, closed mouths don't get fed. And that's the truth. Right? It's the truth. Yes, Stella, you hear that? Yes. Don't ever forget that. Be the loudest, squeakiest wheel. But also, but also I have to also back that up and say, if you wanna be the loud, squeaky wheel, be the loud, squeaky wheel. You, closed mouths don't get fed. Right. But if they don't wanna give you what you want and you have to walk. You better be ready. Be ready. Don't cry. No. Don't cry and be a victim and say, well, I wanted this and they wouldn't give it to me. And then, you know, if you don't get what you want, put your big girl panties on. And bounce. And keep moving. And bounce. It's when you know you have, it's when you know your worth. Right, and you can know your worth. Right. But if they don't know it. You gotta take it where people will appreciate it. Yes, and you can't cry. I've done that. I had to leave a show before and it was the most money I'd ever seen in my life. And I, I was so miserable. And I was crying. It was keeping me up at night. It was stealing my joy. And I've been likened to the party favor. You know, you're the best party favor. So I was becoming this. And it took, I was praying at night. And I just remember dropping to my knees, praying to God. I said, God, I'm not happy creatively. I said, you know it's not about the money. And the next day I woke up. I called the producer. I said, we gotta talk. And we broke up on Valentine's Day. He got it. I got it. And I walked away. But I knew that I was, I was walking away. Not even necessarily knowing where I was going or what was coming next. I just knew that this experience was taking my joy away from something that I love so much. So you know what I did? I went to theater. I ended up doing a play called Above the Fold in Pasadena. Because I didn't care about who was coming to the theater. It wasn't about executives or casting directors. It was about Taraji falling back in love with this craft. And I, I never, I challenged myself in another way. I never, I was never the headline of a play. And it was an original piece. And I said, let me do this. I had no idea that this play was gonna sell out every night. And that's how Fox, because of course when they found out I left the show, all the networks wanted to sit down and have meetings. And then I remember sitting in the meetings like, I don't even know if I want to be here. Because I just. Be on another show. I never tell them to just show. Like I literally, Fox had to woo me. They were coming to. They, my, at the time, manager kept calling me saying, you gotta meet with Fox, they're outside. And I'm like, why are they here? I'm on my way to Pasadena. They drove all the way out here? You know, and then I wouldn't read the script. And finally I read the script. And, but yeah, I was, I was done with television. Right? It's a grind. Yeah, it's really not for me. I have to say, yes, I want my money because I know what I bring to the table. And I know the following that I have. So yes, I should be paid. But you know, I always get scripts where it's like, you know, it's not about the money, but I feel like, God, I have to play this character. Right. You know, so I'm still very much that artist. It's never really, you know, about big dollars all the time. But I know if there's money to be had, I should be paid. For sure. Why don't we all take five minutes and get on the same page, all right? Mama, we ain't going nowhere. Ain't nobody going nowhere. And yes, this would be considered an advance, but me and Lucious are paying for this out of our pockets, okay? What you need to be concerned with is making this song and the showcase hot. For me, for this particular period of my life, I will say since I had my first daughter, I now have three kids. And now that we hit the milestone of, I hit the milestone of showing that I could carry the show and that we didn't need a male number two, that we were going to be okay. We did that. We turned the culture around. We did that. So I've hit some really instrumental marks that have made me feel accomplished in a different way, more from a producorial side. And then the job has been, really for where I'm at in my life, has been, Shonda Rhimes has been amazing. And she lets us be mothers. And I'm grateful to be able to have had a job where I could really juggle both. And I don't have to compromise my family life for a job. I don't have to travel. I don't have to go anywhere. It's been really good to like have three little kids and have this show. It's been an incredible blessing. How long do you think you have? Well, I have one more season on my contract and I will do season 16. I know that because I'm contracted to do season 16. And that's all we know. I made a call today and I know you have a problem. That's not the issue. It was rash and I didn't think it through, but I would do it again. And I know that's tough to hear and it's not what you're looking for, but I cannot apologize for it. I'm interested in, I mean, I could stay if the stories continue to be great. I just, at this point, where do you take Cookie? You know what I mean? It's like, where do you take her next? You know, we've stripped her down and last season it was about them being broke. And, you know, so I just don't know where we would go, but I'm up for it if it's some great storylines. Cause I love the craft of acting. And I love Cookie. Yeah, I don't know if I could do 15 seasons of Cookie. Are you involved in your storyline at all? Oh, oh yeah. No one knows Cookie better than me. Right. I mean, do you have, do you pick your ideas, what you want to do and you tell them what direction to take? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. See, for me, it's, you know, I haven't been challenged creatively at all. You know, every once in a while we do an amazing storyline, like the rape storyline that we did was really moving and we're being able to tell these stories that are having an impact on social issues, which are desperately needed in these times. So, but I think I've only been challenged sort of producerially for the last five years. You know, like I said, I've had other milestones that we were trying to achieve behind the camera. So that really kept me going. But the creative piece is definitely, now that's come back around. Oh, okay. Yeah. We were known for snatching right from the headlines and doing a show about it. I think for me, one of our most proudest moments was the gay marriage, you know, because we didn't know how, and certainly the black community would accept Jamal, that storyline of the gay son, because it's so taboo in our community, you know, and to have him so well-received. I mean, you know, there's still the negative homophobes on the Twitter feed or whatever, but those are small voices compared to the resounding voices of the love that he gets, you know, the character. And so that was my proudest moment and how we tackled AIDS and we didn't shy away from things that, I mean, even though it's happening in the gay community, that's an issue. I mean, that's something that everybody deals with, you know, it's not just a gay disease, you know. So I'm just proud to be a part of a show that's not afraid to ruffle the feathers and get people talking. So that's the only way you're gonna get change, right? You have to be uncomfortable. Change is uncomfortable. The Being 40 piece is something, another reason why I work so hard, especially in films, because I love, Meryl Streep is someone who I've always looked up to. I study her work and her story. And I remember when she first turned 40, she was like, she thought it was over. And that's when her career took off. And I said, I want that story. I wanna be her because I started, they say late, but late by whose standards? Whose time clock? I'm still alive, what do you mean late? Well, I guess starting 26 in the game is late. Whatever, here I am, still standing. Is that when you started, when you were 26? I moved out to LA when I was 26. I moved to New York when I was 26, yeah. Yeah, so I refused to be stopped. Like, I was like, I'm setting a trend. Not a trend, I'm setting a tone. I don't want anyone that looks like me or any woman to ever feel like at 40, they have to stop being sexy on screen, television, movies. So that's why I fight so hard to do movies in between the television show, because I always felt like, yeah, I could get a television show. You know, that's what I felt about doing TV. I'm not 50, I'm not ready to just collect a check. I still wanna do movies and open films. So that was always a drive. I was driven to do that. I wanna prove that a woman over 40 can do action film, Proud Mary. A woman over 40 can do television and features, whether rom-com or whatever. So that's always been my mission, and I hope I'm, I think so. Y'all pushing, I'll be 49 this year. Yeah, yeah, me too. I think, I think. Cheers. I think, cheers, cheers, cheers to 49. I think it's, you know, you're doing that work. You know, you are pushing it forward, because the truth is, it is different now. You know, and it's because of all of us out here at this stage, pushing boundaries, pushing ourselves. And we still have an audience. We still have an audience, yes. We're still bankable, and we're still sexy as hell. So, you know, it's because, I think, I don't feel that way anymore now, of course, because of the work that you do, because of the work that so many people, I mean, J-Lo's out there killing it. Everybody is, I mean, we just have the most incredible community of actresses right now. I feel like everybody is just pushing and taking all these old stereotypes and throwing them out the window. Yes, and I love to see it. Yeah, of all ages, of all colors, all the girls out there. All shapes, all sizes. I used to say, when I first started acting, I remember someone interviewed me and said, they asked me something, and I said, I don't think being an actor is a particularly noble thing to do with your life. We're not curing cancer. We're not out there really helping people. I mean, yes, we're telling stories, but I would say I feel different about that now because of the strides we've made across the board, in front of the camera, behind the camera, Time's Up, Me Too, the pay parity, all of the issues that all of us collectively, all of us women have addressed together, has made me so proud to be a part of this community and has inspired me to wanna go on and do other things, and I know that I have this whole other life now, so the women have, all of you have really inspired me and lifted me up, so thank you. And you have inspired, I think that's what we do as a community of women. We inspire each other, especially when we stick together. Yes, for sure.