Frank Lampard reveals how he was sacked by Chelsea, spy-gate & more to Gary Neville | The Overlap

Chelsea's a different level of brutality. Just tell us about the moment you get that feeling it's coming. I got a message actually from Bruce Buck saying, can you move training and come and meet us in the ballroom? I want a fresh cup of coffee. You know that first message is where you kind of just wake up, I wonder if I can send a flick on Instagram or something. Sometimes you can work all week and it just doesn't work for you at the weekend. That happened a lot with me. But we both know that. When you say since you left Chelsea you do feel a little bit lost some days, is that the first time you've ever felt like that in your life? Probably. If I feel like I'm a dosser then I get a little bit touchy I'd say. That's all right. You haven't spent it around the wall, you've not brought it back have you? Have I won, Chef Finn? You've won, you've won. Oh, I thank you very much. First time I've won away at Stamford Bridge. Today we're going to make a martini. Very nice. It'd be dangerous, wouldn't it? You'd think you're all right and then that would hit, wouldn't it? You're like management, you think you're all right. On the latest episode of The Overlap, I speak to a Premier League legend and to thousands of Chelsea fans, their greatest ever player. Frank Lampard is the club's all-time record scorer. In 13 years at Stamford Bridge, he won 11 major trophies, including three Premier League titles and Chelsea's first ever Champions League. We talk about retirement as a player and his spells in management with Darby and his beloved Chelsea. Frank, welcome to The Overlap and this is a slightly different surroundings than a couple of weeks ago when I was in Bootle. We're in the muse houses of Chelsea. I want to start when you left Chelsea. I wanted to retire right at the end of my career. As soon as I finished at Manchester United, I wanted out of there. But you carried on. Is it something that you considered when you finished at Chelsea that you were going to stop football or was it always the plan to carry on play? No, it's to carry on. I mean, I didn't feel ready to pack up. I think when you get past 30, you'll know, you start to be aware of things, don't you? Your body and all that stuff. But I think I was ready. I wanted to stay on at Chelsea. It's where we're walking now. It's kind of where I'd lived the whole time playing there and I didn't really see anything outside of that and the relationship I had with the club, but pretty harsh and straight how I left. I got told, Jose pulled me in and said, you know, the club, we're not going to offer you a contract. And I'd say, at the time, I was a little bit taken aback. But looking back, it turned out to be one of the best things, I think, that happened to me in a way because I went to Manchester for a year, absolutely loved it. And I was very much an Essex boy, stroke London boy, never even busied living up in Manchester. I would go up there and come straight back and play games. And when I went up there and met the people and played for City, saw the people behind the club, saw a different football club, then went on to New York. Looking back, I mean, I love this area and it's probably going to be my home forever in a way, but it was a great thing to get out of in a way. When you say that at the end at Chelsea, it was a little bit harsh, what were you expecting and what did you actually get? Yeah, in the football bubble, you become probably comfortable at Chelsea. I loved my time there and I never kind of saw anything else. And I remember myself and John would sit in the dressing room and we'd talk about, you know, how much we loved the club, that we'd stay forever. And you probably get a bit like, I suppose when you get a bit older in life, you start becoming a bit of a curmudgeon, you know, you start moaning about everything. And I probably did that. But at the same time, I thought this will be me. And then when, you know, you start talking about contracts, the five-year extensions are long gone. You get a year, you get less money, you get all that stuff. And in the end, when they pulled it, I kind of, I felt it was a bit harsh, but at the same time, I think the club were probably looking forward. They went on then to sign Cesc Fabregas, who was great at the club and his time there. And it was probably the right time for both of us to separate. At the time, as I said, I didn't feel, I wish I'd probably gone out with a bit more of a soft landing. I never really got to say goodbye, but I'm more than over that because the 13 years I had there were brilliant. And it made me see another side, going to America. All the things that came from that were great. And was it Jose that told you or was it... Jose did, Jose did. He pulled me in and looking back, considering now as well that I've worked on that side where you're a coach, you're a manager, you know how hard those conversations are. And when I say it was quite harsh, I don't mean harsh. I mean, it fully felt harsh to me. Was it a shock to you or was it like out of the blue? No, I felt it coming because we were talking about a new contract and Jose had been brilliant. When Jose came back to Chelsea, it looked like I was going to leave. He came back and he got me a year extension, which I was delighted with. But I kind of sensed as the year went on, I wasn't playing so much. Probably wasn't as impactful as I had been. Clearly, I was 35 or whatever. So I kind of felt it coming. But as I say, probably a bit of naivety at the time. I didn't actually sense that conversation coming. And I literally came in for training one morning, come up to the office. He sat there with Ruiz, number two, and put it out there. And you know, there's no easy way. I wouldn't have liked probably... I'd probably complain if he gave me a lot of waffle for the year and ended it. It was just straight. And as I say, looking back, it was probably right for the club and it worked out for me. Just jumping forward to 2016, when you finally hung up your boots. Had you prepared for that? As in, you know, every footballer has their own struggle when they obviously have that adrenaline rush gone out in their career and they've been used to playing. Had you prepared for it well? Was it easy for you to sort of retire in the end? Or did you find it difficult making that decision ultimately? It was easy. I was ready. I felt like I'd given my lot. I was very thankful for all of it. I looked around the dressing room, even in America, and the world was changing. The young boys sitting at the table were changing. They were on social media all the time. My body was creaking. I'm guessing you're a bit the same, really. I didn't feel like I wish I could be out there playing for so many more years. I felt like I'd probably had a result getting what I got out of the game and I just completely felt ready for it. And in terms of the sort of planning for the end of your career, did you invest in businesses? Had you begun your coaching badges? Had you looked at sort of the media and thought about what you were going to do? Yeah, I'd invested. I was fortunate enough, as I say, with the career, I had good people around me, probably from a pretty young age. I was relatively comfortable, so that was a good thing. I didn't have to worry about that. I wasn't sure exactly where I wanted to go. I felt like I wanted to coach. I also enjoyed the media side of it and I knew I needed a break. I knew I felt like I wanted a Christmas holiday or a new year to travel away. All the things that you don't get. We have a great life as a player, obviously, but the things that you don't get, I just wanted a bit of that, a bit of family time. So, as I say, I'd sort of seen it coming for a bit in America and it wasn't a shock to me at all. When you actually went into punditry initially, there was a point whereby, obviously, there's always that rivalry between Sky Sports and BT in the sense that, obviously, both massively invested in football. They both massively invested in the panels and there was yourself, Stevie G, Rio, Michael, and you had a formidable team there, didn't you? Did you enjoy that year or so that you did in punditry? I did. It didn't feel formidable because it was so new to me and I think people from the outside, and I'm not just saying I think you do it brilliantly, I think a lot of the lads working in it do it brilliantly, boys and girls now, which is great. I did enjoy it. It was challenging because I think you have an in-between period where you still feel like you're a bit of a player and you've still got some mates in the game and you still remember that feeling. I think you're past that now. You don't want them to make a mistake? It's hard, but I'd like to think that I'm a decent person. I remember saying some things about Pogba in the first year, and a couple of games, and he's such a dividing character in the football world. I remember saying some things in midfield play and when I came out of it and I actually met him, bumped into him at the final Man United player, and I walked into him and you know like, you kind of, I don't want to bump into him, I felt terrible, and I don't know whether you get over that or not, but I think you have to be honest. You can't sit on the fence and you have to say it straight, and I felt like I was finding my way doing it. I was enjoying it, but it wasn't giving me the real buzz that I craved, which was to go into coaching and do it. Did it make you feel a little bit uncomfortable criticising or having to offer an opinion that was negative on a player that maybe you played against or you're playing with, knowing how difficult it is as a player? Yeah, I did. I did. And I think even more as a coach and managing as well, because you see it from the other side and the tactical aspect and how much work goes through the week. I saw you say that sometimes you can work all week and it just doesn't work for you at the weekend. Happened a lot to me. But we both know that. So when you see that and then you want to sit on TV and you kind of go, I don't know why he played that or did, you know, like sometimes you kind of, it sort of makes you check yourself. But I don't mean to say that in a way because you have a job to do. People at home want to see that explanation and see the thing, but like you say, when it's you and you're saying it, sometimes you can feel like, ooh, a bit much. The problem is with on television, you don't know what's been worked on during the week. You don't know whether a player's gone rogue and done something different. You are almost trying to, your intuition sometimes tells you what's happened, but you are sensitive sometimes to the fact that coaching a team on the training pitch is a million times harder than sitting in a studio. It just isn't it. And in terms of sort of that, was it the thrill of going and actually having a team that sort of drew you back in? Yeah, kind of. That would be one of the reasons. I think I'm very driven and I like to work and I think that was something instilled in me at a young age and I kind of everything that I try and do, I try and do as well as I could. I felt like it was something that I really wanted to take on the challenge and start again because as a player, you don't have to worry about anything. You worry about yourself and you fall in the middle of it and all of a sudden when you're the coach, you realise the responsibility is so much and that's something I just wanted to get my teeth into. Do you know what I mean? And you're right, it is hard. There are things you can do and don't get me wrong, I should be thankful as well because I went to Derby, which is a great club and I went straight to Chelsea. A lot of coaches have to start lower down than me and work their way up so I'm very thankful for that but it's just something I wanted to do, definitely. Have you had difficult moments since you retired in terms of, not obviously the last couple of years, I mean in the first couple of years when you first came out, were there moments where you felt a little bit lost? Were there moments where you always thought, were you always in control? Always feel comfortable with where you were going? I was comfortable at that point. I would say it's harder now having worked as a manager because I think as a manager, you do a proper job. You're in at 7.30 or 8 and you leave at 5 and you take all the responsibilities of play, you didn't have that. So when I finished playing, I was kind of coasting through it. I really enjoyed it. I was like, I can go away, I can be at home, I can do different things, I can do a bit of media and I felt very free. The difference for me was that I knew I'd had a career and I knew I was ready to finish and I understand the feeling of players that to get something taken away from them and then just feel empty and I get that and I think since I've managed, I've probably had a bit more of that feeling of like, I wish I was doing something today, like where's the structure in my life? And I can get that that's tough. Yeah, so that's something now that since you left Chelsea as manager, you feel now that you are waiting, you are waiting for someone to sort of, you actually took up and be the manager, you do feel a little bit lost some days. Is that the first time you've ever felt like that in your life? Probably, probably, and I don't want to talk it down too much because some days I love it. Some days I wake up and I can walk the dog and I walk down here and I go to Battersea Park and I can put my earphones in and I can come home and I can relax a little bit and I'm fortunate in a way with it and I enjoy it and other days I wake up and I want structure and I want a challenge and I want to think about football, like I can watch games on telly and I want to get my teeth into it. So I'm not crying my eyes out here, do you know what I mean? But some days I'm a bit like, I just get like, I want to get back into it. I think, like I say, I do like to work and sometimes I feel like I'm a bit, if I feel like I'm a dosser, I'm not doing anything and I should be doing something, then I get a little bit touchy, I'd say. Right, we're just outside a very interesting building. You want to talk to us about this place? Yeah, so this is the Chelsea Pig. We've actually walked there, my mum and dad had a house when I was playing. They would walk to the Stamford Bridge, walk back and have a glass, probably leave 10 minutes early, come back, have a glass of wine on the way home and it was a real place that they loved and my mum particularly and actually the freehold came up to buy the building whilst I was playing and bought it at that point and so I sit back and I don't get anywhere involved in the business because I think that would be a car crash. It's not your pub? No. You used to own the building? I kind of call it my pub if I want to call it my pub, do you know what I mean? But I don't do the running but I do enjoy drinking there and it's actually just been redone and it's looking great, so yeah, it's a special place for me. Shall we go inside and have a look? Let's go. Right, in we go. Cheers, thank you. Here we go. Football manager in there, is it? Frank, every guest on The Overlap does a challenge and ours is to make a cocktail after you've shown us how to, Michele. Absolutely. Today we're going to make the oldest cocktail ever, a martini. So we're going to start with some dry vermouth. We use that because we're going to be precise, you know? 10 ml. I'm not known for being precise. How about gin? You go for 60. It's a full hit. And you were out last night as well, weren't you? You had to sign in. I was. Big cube. And you start to stir. Here we go. Right, go on. Are we going to make one then? Yeah. Always gone strong, has it? Safe. Go ahead. This is like me at home when I'm not even. I think you just lost a customer, to be fair. Anyone ever had an olive in their drink before? You? Very nice. It's strong, though, isn't it? It's dangerous. It'd be dangerous, wouldn't it? You'd think you were all right, and then that would hit, wouldn't it? Like management, isn't it? You think you're all right? So your big jump into management was at Derby. It's the biggest regret of my career, that I didn't get that club promoted. How would you reflect on the spy game? Really calmly and like. What happened? What was the guy doing? He was in the bushes, like laying down, and he had his binoculars out. So the next challenge is we're in the kitchen with head chef Finn, and he's going to teach us how to do a very nice starter. Yeah, it's salmon meat puree, a lemon puree, some hazelnuts, some roasted beets. So I'm just glazing these up. That's just reduced red wine. This is a lemon puree. Like that. That's how they do it. That is a lot of work, isn't it, for a starter? It is, it is. So, are we on? That's all right. Finn's bent it around the wall. You've come right back, haven't you? I've come back. So where are you going to bend your one? Oh, that's nice. It's easy going, sir. Not bad. That's good. I'll just let him get on with it. We're in the game now. We're in the game. You've got three. Oh, here we go. I might have to sit that out. It's not great. I'll just seal them over the top. It's quite relaxing, actually. Yeah, I might have to adapt it slightly. You know, you didn't give me a cell phone big enough. I'm not going to overplay the green stuff, because it's the type of stuff that comes on my plate. I usually end up throwing it off to the side, but it does look nice. Hazelnuts are nice. Yeah, let it out a bit. He's a pro there. He's a pro, isn't he? I think you've won this, Haz. Would that make it through pass? Would you serve that? Be close. It'd be close. Come on, chef. You're being nice there, weren't you? Not quite. He's won it, hasn't he? I mean, I am a Chelsea fan, but I'm going to have to go with Gary, yeah. Have I won, chef, then? You've won. Oh, that's it. Thank you very much. First time I've won away. Frank, so your big jump into management was at Derby. Tell us a bit about how that happened. I was working in the media at the time, and it was a bit of a shock to me, because in my head, my plan was I was doing my coaching badges. I was on my A licence, not even my pro at that point. And so I was collecting hours of coaching at Chelsea's academy. And Harry Redknapp, uncle, obviously rang me and said that he'd spoken to Mel Morris. Harry had a good relationship with Mel, the owner of Derby. And so he said, do you want to go and have a chat about the job? So I was a bit like, I don't know, really. So I think there were applicants for the job, other people looking at it. We sat in a hotel in Chelsea Harbour, probably at about two hours. And it was the most relaxed interview situation, chatting about football, my ideas, blah, blah, blah. Came away from it, I wasn't really sure whether that went down well or not. He played a good poker face with me. And then he came back to me and offered the job, probably about two or three days later. So I must have said something right. I can't remember what it was now. It was very casual, as I say. And then I had the big decision of, do I jump into this? Because I probably sat in that interview quite casually thinking, yeah, I'm going to meet him, experience, maybe. And when you get offered the job, you go, right, what does it look like? What's the squad? What's the team? What expectations? What can I do? I'd never actually managed, at that point, grown-up players. I'd managed in the academy. It's easy with 16-year-olds. You kind of tell them where to move. And then all of a sudden, you're going to manage maybe Tom Huddleston, who I played with for England. So it was a big call for me. I had not my doubts about it, but just whether it was the right time. And thank God I did, because I had a great year there. What was the moment that you thought, yeah, I'm definitely going to take it? Was there a conversation? There were some moments where I thought, I'm not going to take this. I sat in the front room and spoke with Christine. And I was thinking about the family, because I was quite enjoying life. Media, I was fine. Cheese, the wine. Yeah, go on holiday. I did make the jump. I'm a thinker. And if I sat there and overthink things, then eventually I'll probably think myself out of it. And in the end, I kind of made the jump. And I remember driving up to the Derby training ground, when I'd agreed, and I went there with a couple of the coaches who went there with me in the end. And we sat with Mel, and I'd agreed by now. But then he actually put the squad up on the board. And it was like, you know, an old school one with the names and that. So he went, so here's the squad. I was like, OK. And then he went, so there's Vidra, who was Championship Player of the Year the year before. And he went, he's going. So I took him out of it. And then he went, there's Weiman, who again, energetic kind of thing and all that. So he's going. And so they took them two out. And I looked at the squad. No disrespect, because I had a great year, and the players were brilliant there for me. But I looked at it, and I thought, I'm probably more looking at myself. Can I do this? I did know one of my strengths was that I could probably call on some younger loans to put energy into the team to get it. Because it was, I think it was the second oldest squad in the whole of the leagues. And that's a good thing in a way. You need experience. But at the same time, in terms of how I envisaged myself for that, probably, again, slightly naive. I want to be, every new coach wants to be high press, high energy, win the ball back, play quickly, and all that sort of stuff. There's nothing new in that. But where I hadn't done it before, I sort of sat there and went, OK, this is a challenge. And I drove back down the M1 to come home, and I was like, am I definitely ready for this? And I think it's fine. Looking back, they were normal doubts for me to have. But from then on, the players that were there, the players that we brought in, the feeling of the club, I loved it there. Loved the year at Derby. In terms of sort of your football idea, did you have a very clear idea about how you wanted your team to play? What would that be? Yeah, I did. And it was about pressing high up the pitch and trying to win the ball back. And I came into a team that the year before had been a counter-attacking team. So they'd sat back, soaked up pressure, and they got to the playoffs the year before. But I could see it was a challenge. And one of the first sessions I remember doing at Derby in pre-season, we did like a playing out from the back session. So literally 10 playing out against a press. I realised I had a lot of work to do with the players and myself, because I stood in the middle of the session, and I could feel it wasn't going right. Was it all a bit fast? It was a bit fast. And the team had been used to playing longer, so they wouldn't have played short. And I wanted to play from the back, and I wanted to have possession of the ball. And when I stood in that first session, I was like, ooh, I need to get my game in gear as much as the players do, because they go from my lead. And I have to obviously take the hit of, you know what? Try and play, even if you're not used to it. And also the pressing thing, trying for me from having an idea, a vision, to actually making a grown-up team of men do it. And funny enough, if I look back at my two and a half years of management, there's some things that I did in the early days at Derby that I would do now. And there's some things I did at the end of Chelsea that I wouldn't do now, if that makes sense. Did you feel like the players were with you at Derby from day one? You felt straight away they bought into everything that you wanted? Was there anything that you saw anybody kick back? No, not really. Generally, I felt they did. Fortunately enough, at Chelsea, we had a real strong core of the dressing room. And then when I look back now as a manager, and the sort of genius or the smart thinking of Jose and Carlo Ancelotti, that they gravitated towards that group. And then the message goes through to the players. And when I look back at Derby, Richie Keogh was club captain there. Curtis Davies got injured that year. And we had Craig Bryson. We had Tom Huddleston, Bradley Johnson. They'd been around the block. They were smart lads. And then we had the young group that kind of energised them a little bit, Mason Mount and Harry Wilson lived together. And so it felt pretty good early on. And nothing's plain sailing. Behind the scenes, people don't like each other. They've done pretty delicate sessions or whatever. And as a manager, you have to kind of push that to the side. But at the time, it felt like we were onto something pretty good. But I say that because we made the player final, which I think was a success, even though we didn't get up. There were times in the season where we went to Blackburn and got absolutely walloped off the park. And the championship is an up and down. You can prepare all week. And then you can, again, go to Blackburn and get that. And other weeks, it just all comes good. So through the year, there were ups and downs. But I think when I look back at the end, and when we beat Leeds in the semi-final of the playoffs, that's one of the best nights of my career. How would you reflect on the Leeds one, the Bielsa and the spike? Really calmly and something like that. Would Josie have done that, do you think? Or I bet Sir Alex or Harry, they'd have done stuff like that, do you think, 20-odd years ago? Do you think they might have sent someone to watch? Yeah, and you know what? It was a hard one for me because it really came across that I was really angry about it. And I kind of was, but it was more in my game face mode. If I'd have stepped out of it, I'd have gone, yeah, everyone does that. Who cares? Do you know what I mean? But at the time, I felt that it was a bit out of order because I feel like in the current day where the game's moved on, the spike thing came the day before we played them. And I think Harry Wilson was injured. He wasn't in the shape that we did. And we did a few set pieces. So it wouldn't have changed the game. They beat us the next day. What happened? What was the guy doing? Well, he was in the bushes, laying down. And he had his binoculars out or whatever. Because I'm not sure how much. He could have got that much information. And from Bielsa's side, he's saying that much information wins us the game or not. You know, I get that. But I felt it was a little bit offside. I felt it was a little bit wrong. And I had to defend that. And I can't come out and go, I think it's a little bit out of order. I had to sort of say, that's out of order. You know, and it carried out. And the good thing from my point of view, that it did get the bit between my teeth a bit. And as it then built and we came back, that was in the league game early in the season. So as we then get to the playoff final and we played them in the home game and they beat us again, quite convincingly. It's only 1-0, but they played well and beat us. And then their fans were all singing, taking the mickey out of me and all this stuff about. What was the song? They sang one of the Oasis songs. And they changed the words. So it was Stop Crying, Frank Lampard. Stop crying about it or whatever. And then we went to leave and there was a cauldron in the second game. And they were singing it and all that. And then the team just produced. The lads were brilliant. Obviously, we all know what's happening at Derby at the moment. Did you sense that there was that desperation and that risk taking in terms of how they were approaching the finances? Were you aware of that existing at the time? There wasn't risk taking when I was there because they were at the other end of that. I think maybe that had happened before. And I definitely want to show a defence of Mel Morris here because he was brilliant for me. And I can only take as I find. And he was brilliant. And I know that we had tighter purse strings. To be fair to Mel, I think when we lost the players at Vidra and Wijn when we got in 12, 13 million pounds, he spent a lot of that back for me, which I think he probably overspent what he wanted to. Because I think he was kind of quite excited about what might happen that year. We went and bought Mike and Michael and Jack Marriott and the loans were good. But through the year, I sensed the tightness. And it's the biggest regret of my career that I didn't get that club promoted for Mel Morris and for the fans. Because they were great to me that year and we got so close. And I have some personal regrets about the final because we lost it. And I think Villa were probably pound for pound a more talented team than us. But the night I saw Mel there, Mel was so gracious afterwards. And it was like, I knew that. It felt to me like the club was on a little bit of a tipping point. And promotion would have... It was like a red or black on the sort of... A little bit. And when you work all year to get to a playoff final and you beat Leeds, who are the best team in the league, pretty much, for me that year. And then you lose a final, the hit of that, as I say, I felt for Mel big time. What would you do differently in that final? You just mentioned there about things that you thought, what would that be? But you are critical of yourself. You're an unbelievable professional. You were as a player. But I can imagine even as a manager, that's exacerbated and probably exaggerated. What would you look at them and say? It's the thing that we're talking about there, how you sort of go home and criticise yourself. Because sometimes it's so easy. Every defeat, you go, I should have done that. But when we went to Leeds and beat them, we played a diamond in the second leg there. I wanted to play a diamond in the first leg because Leeds had beaten us in two games. And I thought a diamond might give them an issue. But we'd played well with four, two, three, one, going into the play. So I stick with that. We lost at home and went diamond and we won. So my issue then became, what do I take into the final here? Because the nice feeling of a diamond beating Leeds, but does it work for Villa? So I stuck with a diamond. And not to say we wouldn't have got beaten if we'd have gone four, two, three, one or whatever. We had a couple of injuries in the week. We went to Portugal for a few days, which retrospectively I think was a mistake. We should have stayed in Derby. In what way? Just getting the players got carried away a little bit? I just think it was a complication that we didn't. It'd been 11 days. It was a long time. And I remember thinking, what do we do here? It's a long time to be in Derby. It was raining or whatever. Do you know what I mean? Lads coming to the same training ground. And so we went away. And again, I'm definitely overthinking this because if we'd have won that game, it would have been brilliant. We went to Portugal and it was great for the lads. But just myself looking back, maybe we could have just built to the game slightly differently. And that's probably my own things. Everyone gave everything that year. And in the end, Villa were better than us on the day. What was your last conversation with Mel Morris that you've had? I sent a message to him the other day, actually, because with the current news that's happening around, I wanted to show a message of support. Because as I say, he's brilliant with me. I don't know any of the details behind the scenes. And before that, one of the last messages I would have had was when Chelsea came in for me. And he was very upfront with me. He said, listen, Frank. He said, I can do this for you next year. This is what next year will look like. I'll give you a new contract. We'll be able to spend this. And it wasn't loads, to be fair. But I appreciated his honesty because he could have said, I'll give you this, just stay. And he didn't. And I was like, thanks, Mel. Let me think about it a bit. And then it was Chelsea. And it was like, you know, and when I said that to him, he was like, of course, go and do it. Chelsea's a different level of brutality. I sat there in the interview for Chelsea knowing that derby managers for one year don't get the Chelsea job. Who makes that decision? That's the manager. That's not the manager. Who makes that call at Chelsea? The owner. Hi, everyone. I hope you're enjoying this episode. This is just a quick thank you to Skybet, our partners, for making this show happen. It's something I've wanted to do for a long, long time. Please subscribe. There's loads more episodes coming up and I hope you're enjoying it. Right, let's get back into this episode. When did the first call come from Chelsea? I don't actually remember. There was a weird sense, and I'm not waffling you there, because there was a weird sense around the playoff final that there had been a bit of chat. And the manager hadn't left Chelsea, by the way, then. He was still there and stayed there for a while. But there was a sense of chat around me, which is an obvious reason De Ligt could be there. We were doing all right at the time and the Chelsea job might be coming. And I don't actually remember the first call or whatever it was. I actually ended up going and sitting down and talking to Marina. What was that first meeting like with Marina? The talk was fine. It was normal. Like I said, how casual the male one was, it was certainly a step up from there, as it should be, I suppose. So I had to get my presentation and my document in order, talk about what I wanted to do and what I wanted to see. And it was funny for me because I didn't feel like... As a player at Chelsea, you spend 13 years there and when you're in your prime, fortunately, you get offered contracts. It's great. You don't even have to... You negotiate, but that's what it is. I sat there in the interview for Chelsea, where everyone had caught the meeting, knowing that derby managers for one year don't get the Chelsea job. Do you know what I mean? They don't get it. It normally goes to a player, a manager that's been in Europe, success, whatever it is. So I suppose I kind of felt, not backfootish, but like I was trying to show myself, because I wanted the job, that I knew that the circumstances were different. So I kind of probably, the conversation with her would have been very friendly, very positive, from me trying to be positive, show what I can do with the team. Transfer ban was there. It was a huge elephant in the room. It was just there. We all knew it was there. So the job looked different to what it would have looked in the last 15 years. And I tried to sell myself what I can do with this position, whether it be the younger players or the players that are already there. What did they want from you as Chelsea manager? Did they say, we weren't expected to win the league this year? No, no. Obviously, Hazard was leaving, you had a transfer ban. Yeah, they didn't expect that. And they said to me, I said, Dave, it sounds really impersonal. Marina said to me, we understand if we don't end up where we normally end up. We don't want to be relegated. I remember those words. I was like, okay, fine. I don't think we'll get relegated. But for me, Eden was the best player in the Premier League, you know, there or thereabouts, for sure. And his impact on Chelsea for the last two or three or four years, the year before I came, was like, I think 55% of the goals where he scored or assisted. And you could feel, well, I knew from the outside, but when I got there as well, you could really feel that the reliance had been on him. Get us out of trouble, Eden, you know, on a bad day, you know, and he did it time and time again. So it was very clear. So it wasn't like a big lie. We all knew it. And it was what it was. And I'm not sure what the parameters were, really. But it's a hard one because when you sit and do your first press conference as Chelsea manager, you can't sit there and go, we don't want to be relegated this year. You have to say the right thing. Otherwise, I think they'll go, well, you've got a good squad. And this is no disrespect, but when I played there in those primaries, your manager probably walked in and said, well, there's John Terry, best centre-back in the world, best goalkeeper in the world, did their job, one of the best strikers, Ashley Colbert. And experience, it was a different animal. So, you know, I was, I had my eyes open with that. And again, I'm not talking players down there because I think, you know, not only did the young players do well for me that year, but some of the experienced ones, especially in year one, because the year before, they just sort of stayed in the Champions League position. I think they ended up coming third, but it was a funny year. I got beaten in Man City 6-0. Chelsea teams don't generally do that. So I knew what I was getting into. In terms of your idea, because obviously you played at Chelsea and Chelsea have never been known as a high-pressing team. You know, under Jose, it was seen as maybe counter-attack, even though you had brilliant players and you had kept possession. Where did the idea of the high-press came from? The year before, I felt that they had fallen somewhat in between. I was a Chelsea fan. I'd watched them for certain reasons. So I tried to make a few little adjustments to, A, the fitness levels and the mindset of how we want to go, and B, some tactical things. And I think in the first year, we did pretty well with it. And some of that was maybe us, hopefully, as staff, but other parts of that was Tammy Abraham coming in, Mason Mount coming into the team. People like Willian, who I think had had a... It was a bit polarising with Chelsea fans in a way, but he was brilliant for me there because I could... I knew that his natural attributes, when you get him really fit and he feels like he's the main man, he'd be jumping from one side. So we had him on one side, we had Mason go to Kante, do what you want with him, he'll do everything for you. So I think in the first year, we weren't perfect, but I like to think that Chelsea fans would look and go, yeah, we can... There were some games at home where we played. Remember, we played Brighton at home. They didn't get out of their half at the first half of the game, and I thought, this is the team. Not every week's like that, don't get me wrong, but that's what we were striving for. In terms of Chelsea, I mean, it's a club that really, behind the scenes, no one really knows how it operates from sort of top down. How would you manage up during your time as Chelsea manager? Was there a meeting every couple of weeks, every week, a month, or would you just be left to completely just get on with it, particularly in that first year? Yeah, I wasn't left completely. I would have conversations with Marina, would be my port of call. Regularly or...? Regularly enough. Could be messages. I went out of my way to have that. I wanted to have that relationship with her because I think it was important. If you go on your coaching badges, that's to make sure you manage up well. It sounds pretty simple, and then when you lose a couple of games, it's a bit harder. But that was it. And obviously I had probably the benefit of Petr coming in. And so, you know, me and Pete were close as players, as friends, you know, and he then got into the office opposite me. So that was a nice in-between ground for me. So I certainly didn't feel like I was absolutely alone or anything. And people make a big deal at how much, you know, it's a question, have you spoken to Roman yet? I didn't really, but I didn't need to. It wasn't like that. Do you know what I mean? I felt the support of the club. I'm thankful they gave me the job. So I had the communication upwards. Certainly wouldn't sit there and say it would be the cold thing that you could maybe assume that it might be. It wasn't. You know Chelsea better than anybody over the last 20 years, and football's ruthless, but Chelsea is a different level of brutality when it comes to your managers who've been successful, maybe lose their jobs. Did you think it would be different because of your relationship with the club on the way in? Did you think that that would be different? No. You didn't? No, no, I didn't think it at all. Because why would it be? I don't think there's too much room for sentiment or emotion. You're there to do a job. I think if I would have gone in thinking I would have been naive, it might give me some favour with the Stamford Bridge fans, with the fans that come every week who've maybe seen me play for a while as well. So I think eventually if you're not producing, they'll kind of go, all right, it's not your time. But when I went into the job, if I'm brutally honest, I didn't think it was going to be a five-year project. Because history told you not. History told you that managers stayed for two years. How long do you think it would be? I thought it would be shorter term. It ended up being sort of 18 months, and I couldn't have put a time on that. But I was concerned about the level of expectation compared to the squad and the job that I had at my hands. It felt like at least a transition, at most a rebuild. And that rebuild is probably too much because there's some good players in that squad. But when I went in, Man City and Liverpool had just done that. And they were miles away from the rest, not just Chelsea. So, you know, I've been fortunate enough to play in teams that if we had a bad year, we came second to you normally. Do you know what I mean? In that period. Whereas now it looks a bit different. So I'm a thinker. So I kind of try to weigh up everything. And I know the club very well. Maybe that's not a good thing because you see everything and think everything can feel it. I was concerned that we would be able to get to exactly what we want. But it's hard to predict going in. But I never felt, you know, and sometimes you sit there and you and you say, this is a three year project. We might be able to win the league in three or four years. Inside, I didn't think that. I was like week by week. Let's see what we get to. Who is the decision maker? Who makes that decision? That's the manager. That's not the manager. Who makes that call at Chelsea? Well, the owner. Roman makes the calls. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you don't always get it direct. But yeah, the owner. And I think you respect that. And I've always respected him. I wouldn't be sitting in a comfortable position I'm in now with, you know, the period just without him in the first place. And he makes that decision. Yeah. And to be fair, if you look back in the period, he's made some good decisions. Does the phone stop ringing from Marina? Yeah. What was the turning point where you thought this is not right? In the second year, I went to Arsenal and got beaten. I knew that that good thing I mentioned before had gone. Once that perception flips, your back's against the wall straight away. You've had a year at Derby. You've got comfortable probably with the players. You've built your confidence in terms of working with the team. You then go on to the training pitch or the first time you meet the Chelsea players. What's different? Level, obviously. Again, no disrespect to Derby, but it is what it is. In Chelsea, you come into a team full of internationals, 20 odd of them. And so the level was up, which brings a different breed of player, different breed of person. You know, they challenge you more, I think. You know, from the outside, looking at that first year, it looked like it was the most likable I felt Chelsea had ever been. One, maybe it's because you're the manager. But secondly, because there was a transfer ban, you'd brought through young players. Chelsea had this most unbelievable academy, but not really brought through young players. It looked like you were really happy. It looked like things were perfect. Did that suit you, that transfer ban in that first year, just to get sort of what would be a group of young players and also the fact that you had stability. You didn't have who you're signing, you didn't have, you know, who's Frank going to bring in. Are his signings a failure? Are they a success? Was it more simple for you in that first 12 months? Maybe, maybe. If I go back in time, I'd opt for no ban because I felt when I came in that there were two or three positions that we needed to improve. And also, you're a manager that comes in, you kind of set the tone of what you're doing by bringing in players of a certain type. And so to not have that was, I'll go back, I will take that option, but I understand what you're saying. It definitely helped in terms of feeling. I felt that, that people kind of looked at it with a different eye and it felt different probably on the inside as well. And it's hard to, it's hard to call as a manager. It definitely, people like Mason, Mason might breathe energy into it, but then you have the flip side of that as a senior player that's not playing because of Mason and then you have to deal with those things. So there were the same challenges behind the scenes, but definitely, generally, I think it did a sort of political or an aesthetics from outside. Like you're saying, it probably helped. Mentioned before, the players challenge you more at Chelsea because they're better players. Who would those players be? Who would those characters be? In a good way, like you say, in the dressing room, that the leaders? Experienced players, leaders, Aspie, Giorgino, Giroud, players that have been around the block. And you have to respect that. I think as a modern manager, I think the more you can listen to the modern player and give them some form of ownership over it, I think you get better kickback from it. I think you have to. So the easy thing for me was to come in and go, no, no, I'm the boss. Shut up, you lot. I'm going to come in and show you my stripes. But I always try to listen to how they might want to set up a press, I'm going to set play, whatever it is. And they need to know you're the boss. Don't get me wrong. But there was a different feeling of challenge from the players in a good way. And I was that player, you know, myself, I remember JT, me and JT would have challenged managers for fun, you know, about if we were doing shape like 11 against none, like this is rubbish. Now every manager does it and it's the norm. Do you know what I mean? The game moves on. You've had a really good first season, you finished top four, but one of the sort of big issues that emerged during that first season was the club had spent 75, 80 million on a goalkeeper, Kepa. And you then put Caballero, Nidia, you know, partway through that season. Did that bring a pressure from above in terms of what you're doing with our big investment? Did that cause a problem for you? No, no, it didn't. As I said, my communication with upstairs was always good. When you're aware of a 70 million pound goalkeeper that you take out of the team, you know that it's not a simple decision. So probably with Kepa, he was having a tough time. There's no bones about it. Do you know what I mean? In the first season, I think he'd say that himself and from the conversations we had, he was very sort of open. It was a tough time for him and that position is different to every other position on the pitch because you're getting it all the time and the lack of confidence is going to hit you harder than anything in that position. So I tried to have open conversations with him and I got to the point where I felt like I just had to make a change. There was no feeling of pressure from above is what I'm trying to say, but it becomes very high profile when you do it and there's that price tag on a player. But he was having a tough time and for that reason, he had to come out of the team. It sounds a bit dramatic, but you know, I had to make a decision. And at the start of the next season, was the goalkeeper always a target? Did you always say, I want a goalkeeper? Were the club resistant to that or were they supportive of bringing a goalkeeper? No, they were supportive of that. Again, I don't think I'm being harsh here on Kepa because I think he's a talented goalkeeper and he had a tough year when I was there for whatever reason, but I felt that it was a position that we could improve. Mendy was the result of that, who's obviously been fantastic since he's been at the club. At the start of next season, the club spend a lot of money on Werner and Havertz and players like that. Were you happy with the transfer window? Were you happy with the players that were signed? Yeah, I was. As I say, it was very joined up, which I was happy with because I'd never managed it. How influential were you in that process in terms of the players coming in? Could you have a veto on it? What would happen if you said, no, I don't want to bring him in and they said, I want to bring him in? How would that work at Chelsea? It never happened in that way, but I would say that I would probably have that veto, to be honest. In that first year whilst we were transfer banned, we were having conversation about what players we wanted to bring in the summer and we obviously brought in a fair few players, but I was never out of the loop on that. It was never one where I could sort of say, they did this behind my back. I never had that because it was very open, the scouting department there with Petr. Timo was a big one because Liverpool had one of them, Manchester United I think we were in. We knew there were three or four other big clubs. So when I had the conversation with Timo, I knew I had to be on my game to try and get him to come. From the year before, I knew that our, I hate stats too much, but our xG, we should have scored more goals. So it felt a really crucial part of it. Same talking about Edu at the other end. I was happy with it. Thiago Silva was a no-brainer. When he came up, I was almost like rubbing my hands together and go, yes, please, you know, free transfer. This fellow who's been one of the best centre-backs in the world for a while and everything I heard from everybody else was that about his character, which proved right as well. So the balance of it was right. I mean, listen, I think if you look back, you might sort of say, Thiago was on the ball, you just go, bang, he's going to be an absolute fit. With Timo and Kai, there was clearly going to be adaptation issues. And I know that from being in it because, you know, they were probably shocked at the speed of training. They were shocked at the physical demands of the game. I remember Eden Hazard's first year at Chelsea. It turned out to be one of the best players the club's ever had. In the early days, in pre-season, you look at him and go, can you, you know, strolling around, to be fair to Eden, get an incredible talent. But any player, pretty much any other than the odd few, are going to have that. And I think Timo and Kai probably had that in the early days. Kai had terrible COVID as well, which set him back quite a lot. But in terms, sorry, in terms of the signings, I was happy. Ben Shields was a big one that I wanted. It was something that I had actually seen as a left back. I wanted a player of his qualities. Did everything change at that point? In terms of the first year, you know, in some ways, because of the transfer ban, the fact you had young players in the team, it was a little bit of a honeymoon. Did you feel like it completely changed in the second season? The sort of way in which people reported to you, asked you questions, the sort of media, everything, did it feel different? Yeah, yeah, it did. And unfairly at times? It's just what it was. And so much of football, the main bulk of it is what you do, what you do at a training ground, what you do as a squad, what results you get. But then there's a huge part of it, it's perceptions, you know, and how people perceive you. Like he's absolutely not trying to blow my own trumpet, but I got in the top list of managers for manager of the year, when Jürgen Klopp won it after my first year. And we'd come fourth. Chelsea managers don't normally get that. The next year, you know, I came fourth because people kind of understood that it had been a tough year. So they give you that credit, you know, and I was pleased with that personally. But the next year, once that perception flips, your back's against the wall slightly straight away. It's tougher. And when you're working on the ground and you can see Timo's getting used to the game, Kai's getting used to the game, got a big squad, leaving out players. We needed the squad to be, to be, for me, less at that point. And don't get me wrong, they went on to win the Champions League. It sounds a little bit... Was it causing you a problem, the size of the squad and trying to get them all in? It's tough, yeah, because you had three left backs, only one can play generally, and five centre-backs. And Ficayo, who had been brilliant for me at Derby, had been very, very good for us in the first year at Chelsea. And I could see, feel that he was going to be a good centre-back for Chelsea the years to come. But he's in that kind of developing age where you will come out of the Chelsea team at 21 when there's that sort of competition of internationals. But when you've got five, it's Ficayo or it's Rudiger or it's Christensen. Two of those are at home every game. And it's not nice. And you can't bullshit players that, okay, I'm leaving you at home, but don't worry, you'll be back next week. If that's not the case, do you know what I mean? I wouldn't have wanted that as a player. And it's really hard. And there's obviously a skill to it at times. But that squad was big and it's tough. And as time goes on, the new manager's there now, he can make his changes and you can maybe try and trim that. That's just how I felt at the time. In terms of sort of that second year when you were out on the training pitch with the players, did you feel like, you know, because you had a really good start to the season, didn't you? Did you feel like you were in control, like everything was moving well, the idea was being received well by the players and that you were on the right track? Yeah, yeah, I did. And I'm always, I say the pessimist, I'm always ready for something around the corner. But at the same time, when you look back, I think we were 16-17 unbeaten going into December. We beat Leeds at home, played well, beat Seville 4-0 in Seville. And that was of a team of eight changes from the league team. So, and it was a really good feeling of teams winning, teams playing. And the next day, you know, when you get the ones that haven't played, it's a dangerous session. But it was really happy. The players were playing and it was right. And we were feeling really good, 16-17 unbeaten, as I say. And then come end of December, we lose some games and obviously that can change pretty quick. What was the turning point where you thought, this is not right, this is not going well, that moment, is there a moment you remember, a day, a game, a meeting? We went to Arsenal on Boxing Day and lost and played poorly. There hadn't been that many times I could probably say to you, in my time there at Chelsea, where I could kind of come away and go, we were off it today, you know, and that kind of miles off it. A couple of times in the first season, went to Sheppard United and got beaten, but they were kind of, you could certainly put that down to probably the youthfulness of the group and normal inconsistencies that come with it. In the second year we went to Arsenal, we got beaten pretty well. I knew that that good feeling I mentioned before, had gone. I could see it in the performance, you know, and then we had City the next game. And at Chelsea, it's understandable, I'm not crying my eyes out, but you go and lose a couple of games on the bounce like that and people start talking about it straight away. So I could sense the feeling of that and, you know, I think we lost three games in seven and at the end of January I left. Does the phone stop ringing for Marina? Does the tone change? Yeah, I think it does naturally and I get that. Did you feel it was coming, you know, or did it come as a shock on the day where you were told? I could feel it, I was sort of being told some things that it might happen. What sort of things? Rumours, you know, but I mean... You mean from outside or from inside? Yeah, yeah. But, you know, again, I don't want to sound like I'm reliant. Whether they were approaching the managers or... Yeah, but that, I mean, maybe that's, again, that's normal and I think Chelsea is such a club and it's had huge success with it but it changes managers. So it doesn't take long for, you know, for people to get jump on that ship. So it would have been stupid of me to just listen to that and absolutely get... But, you know, I'm not silly. So you listen to those things and you just keep working. Just tell us about the moment where, you know, your phone call, the message and it's happening and you are going to be told and you get that feeling it's coming. Well, we'd beaten Luton in the cup, FA Cup, fourth round or whatever it was and then it was the next morning I got a message actually from Bruce Buck, the chairman of the club, saying, can you move training and come and meet us in the ballroom? I'm afraid of fancy coffee. You know, that first message is where you kind of just wake up, I wonder what, yes, I'm a flick on Instagram or something. I'm joking, but... Now, once the club makes that decision, to be fair, there's no nice way to do it. What did the message say though? Can you come and meet us in the ballroom at Stamford Bridge? Yeah. So I knew straight away. But as I said, there is no nice way to do that and there may be different ways of etiquette of doing it, but at the end of the day, the result's the same. And so when I met Bruce and Marina, it was very cordial. I knew what was coming then as well. So, you know, I sort of, again, not at the time, but you're thankful for the period. You understand what it is. They're going to move on and there's nothing you can do there. So I've never been in that position before, which is quite a little bit surreal at the time, but it is what it is. When you take the job, you understand that that call may come, that Chelsea probably will come, unless you go and win back-to-back titles all the time. That was never going to happen. I had bruises applied, bruises going and having 32 shots at the World Cup and not scoring. It was like a record of 32 shots. What does the future hold for Frank Lampard? Where are you looking next? You obviously want to get back in, don't you? I'm ready to work and I'm excited about it. So, Frank, we do this section with every guest on The Overlap. It's called Failure is a Bruise, Not a Tattoo. You know where it comes from. What's your moment where you feel like that was the low? I had bruises applied, bruises going and having 32 shots at the World Cup and not scoring. It was like a record of 32 shots and no goals in 2006 or whatever it was. I came back and myself and John and Ashley, we got hammered at grounds for six months afterwards. You let your country down and all this stuff. And I can laugh about it now, but when you're in it, that's a really hard bruise. I remember going out of England, not liking it. I remember ringing my mum and saying, Mum, I've got booed at Wembley. We played Brazil, first game back at Wembley. I got booed in a warm-up. And I was like, it's horrible. So those bruises there, losing my mum as a player, losing a parent, I don't have to tell you about that, but how hard that hits you. For a year after that, I was a zombie. I look back and my life changed completely and I'm still not recovered from that, but it's still there. So football's about bruises. How do you cope with those moments, those low moments? I think I've changed. I used to be, I think I got brought up in an old school feeling of get on with it, get on with it. And then you just kind of go into a zone and you get on with it and maybe you're taking a bit of a battering inside, you don't see it. I definitely did that with my mum. I kind of did what I should do and played against Liverpool four days later. And then probably had moments two or three months or a year or two years or three years down the line where it hits you and you go, and you get it. I'm not the only person to suffer this. I'm not bad at boxing things off. I'm quite good at moving on to the next thing. Call it ruthless, call it being slightly cold at times. I'm quite good at it. You've been to Chelsea, haven't you? Yeah. It's my defence mechanism though. I don't get overly emotional about things. I might have moaned to Christine at home about that stuff, but kind of get on with it. Bruiser leaving Chelsea in the first two months when I look back, it was hard hitting, do you know what I mean, as a manager. Now I look at it and I walk the dog. I'm looking at what's the next thing and you get excited about things. You sort of think about things you would have done a bit different. Could I have done that? Next time, what do I see? And they're all part of the process. It's easy sitting back and reflecting when you're in it. Did you watch the games after you left? And how hard was that as you saw them sort of grow during that season after you left? It must have been tough, that. Yeah, it's tough. It was a balance of things. You watch the Champions League final and it's funny around here because you watch it and on a football level, I can get excited about what's exciting. I can sort of say that part of that is me. You know, Mason Mount played brilliant in the final. Rhys James, the goal goes from Mendy to Chilwell to Mount to Havertz. I'm going, that's a bit of me there. Do you know what I mean? But the other side of me goes, I'm not taking any ownership over that. I got quite a few messages after that. That's your team, mate. That's your team. And I'm like, no, it's not. Do you know what I mean? And that's because that's how I am. And fair play to Tukul and the club and all that for taking them that way. I'll never take ownership of that. The thing I found really strange, because I live near the stadium, is that I walk the dog the next day. And I found it tough watching that game. Anyone who works in the game knows that. You're not sitting there with your Chelsea shirt on going, do you know what I mean? It's different. But when I walk around the streets here, I had so many Chelsea fans come up to me and you were part of that or did you enjoy that last night? I'm like, yeah, do you know what I mean? All that sort of stuff. But then when I got over that feeling, I felt a sense of it has been my club for a long time and always will be. And I should be happy with that in a way. Do you know what I mean? Once I got over that kind of funny feeling of watching the game. And then it took me a while because the first few times I'd say it to Chrissie and I'm like, we've picked **** up. Sorry, that's, do you know what I mean? It's not my team, do you know what I mean? And all that stuff. As the dust settles, you know, you can, I can take some happiness from players like Mason and players like Rhys and players like Tammy. Some of the older players, I hate to always reflect, Thiago Silva sent me a beautiful message after the game sort of saying, thanks for bringing me to the club and this happened. And people who work at the club, I'm friends with masseurs and physios and fans and all that. So when it settles, you can absolutely look at that with a much more positive eye than the football sense I can sometimes take you. Yeah. It struck me though, when you were walking outside and you said that a lot of the last few months or last year has been the points where you've probably been at your lowest in terms of your career. Because everything, you know, you had an unbelievable career, you had a great managerial job as well at Chelsea. And to be fair, you've not even had a bad run really. What were you like at home with Christine in that period? And what was she like with you? Was it sort of like where you were? She was picking, not great. I was all right, but maybe it's the norm. Being the working managers, she probably picks and chooses her time to come and see. But no, I was fine. I mean, I'm driven. So as a manager, you're going to get sacked. You don't go into this job unless you think that's going to happen. It's going to happen to you at some stage. If you want to have a long career and if you're going to go to a place like Chelsea, you know, you come to Mourinho and she's like, I'm nowhere near the minute I've been sacked. It's easy to say now. There are moments at home where Christine has to give me a swerve. And normally when I'm watching football, because I start getting into it and stuff, and then sometimes it just sits with you because of how I am. I can't switch off from that. Maybe if I did, then I probably would come out of the game and not manage again and just sort of do what you do, but not as well. So look, you're here today in an unbelievable pub, by the way. I'm going to come here, I'm going to come down today. I'm going to frequent this place quite a bit. I've been here more than you. What does the future hold for Frank Lampard? Where are you looking next? You obviously want to get back in, don't you? Yeah, I want to work. I'm ready to work. I've enjoyed parts of being out of the game. Definitely got me different perspectives, having a baby, all that stuff. And it's also given me a lot of reflection to sort of use that to plan for the future. So I'm ready to work and I'm excited about it. And I miss it. Not that I'm waiting for the call. It sounds a bit desperate, but you know, the right opportunity. There's been a few opportunities that I had pretty fresh after leaving Chelsea. Then again in the summer. You've been for interviews? Yeah, I've been speaking to a couple of clubs at different times and some didn't feel right for me. I'm going to go into that because it's gone now. I don't want to sound overly selective either because, you know, if you want to be selected in football and look at any job at face value that's available, there'll be good and bad about it. You know, the job's there for a reason. It's open for a reason, that the bad results, squad, whatever it is. I'm not scared about that, but it just needs to feel, you know, like the people that you work with. Sounds a little bit cringey, but the vision, what do they want from you? What are the expectations? All those things. I'm fortunate enough to be in a place where I want to work, but I'm not desperate to work and I want to try and get the right place. You know, you'll always hear that. I think it was a Fergie quote, when they pick the owner, not the club, or something like that. You know, and I understand what that means, trying, and maybe if you're Fergie, you can pick who you want. Do you know what I mean? I'm not in that position, but you want to go into something that feels positive. Well, let's hope so. Frank, absolutely brilliant. Cheers, nice speaking to you, mate. Thank you for coming on the All Black. Thank you. I'll see you soon. Thank you.