G20 summit: more work needed on Ukraine peace plan says Keir Starmer

A message from their forefathers echoed through time, a reminder of the importance of Ukrainian sovereignty. President Zelensky in a memorial service this morning for the millions of victims of the Holodomor, a Soviet-era famine. Almost 100 years on, Ukraine's leader not just wrestling with a fate forced upon it by Russia, but by an American peace treaty too. This is now about much more than specific points of one document or another. It is necessary to ensure that nowhere in Europe or the world does the principle prevail that crimes against people and humanity, against states and peoples, can have any reward or forgiveness. With that warning to the whole of Europe, Sakhir Starmer met with the French president and German chancellor today, the so-called E3, and then a larger meeting with allies from the G7. Their hope to quote strengthen President Trump's plan to end the war with Russia. One of the elements in the 28-point plan is the security guarantee from the US, an Article 5 guarantee. That's about the strongest guarantee that can be put forward. And so that fortifies in me the belief that what we're all trying to achieve here is a just and lasting peace, but it'll only be just and lasting if there are security guarantees and if we bear in mind that matters for Ukraine are always to be determined by Ukraine. Other agreements must be reached. More reliable agreements must be reached. And once again, we as Europeans, we as Germans, are prepared to participate in this process. We are right in the middle of it. And in my view, there is currently an opportunity to end this war. But we are still quite a long way from achieving a good result together. But this was a peace plan on which no one in this room was asked for their input, and which these leaders are now desperately clambering for influence on. G20 leaders have issued a statement saying they are clear borders must not be chained by force. They also have concerns about the limitations placed on Ukraine's military and its ability to protect itself in future. But the fear among those leaders is President Trump cares little for their thoughts, despite multiple interventions and attempts to influence him, including a joint trip by European leaders to Washington over the summer. His current viewpoint seems to show little evidence of any of those interventions making any mark at all. Well, at some point, he's going to have to accept something. He hasn't accepted, you remember, right in the Oval Office not so long ago. I said, you don't have the cards. In President Trump's mind, it's Russia who holds the cards, as he puts it. And his 28-point plan is stacked heavily in Russia's favour, according to those that have seen it, including ceding areas of eastern Ukraine that it currently controls. Tomorrow, the US, Ukraine, Germany, France and the UK are expected to hold negotiations in Geneva, while Ukrainians continue to mourn those lost over three and a half years of war, and fear what more sacrifices their nation may be asked to make. Well, earlier, I spoke to senior German politician and former chair of the Bundestag Foreign Affairs Committee Norbert Roetgen from Friedrich Merz's CDU party. I began by asking him whether the EU's response to Trump's peace deal was betraying Ukraine. This proposal means that America would switch sides and that it now forces Ukraine to cede unconquered territory and to accept, to be stripped of its sovereignty and its security. This can't be accepted. And it can't be accepted also from a European point of view, because it would also be and mean the sell-out of European security. There can't be any doubt that if brutal aggression by war is rewarded by America, that Putin would not feel encouraged to go further. You've been very clear there, saying that America is switching sides. It is extraordinary and unthinkable, isn't it, that an American president is siding with Vladimir Putin? Yes. Unfortunately, I would have considered this unbelievable and unimaginable that this were going to happen. If it were to happen, we would live in another world. If America, for business interests, switches sides and rewards a brutal, illegal war, war of attrition, and would sell out Ukraine as a major European country and European security at the same time, this would be a different world. And it would imply the destruction, I would say, of the institutions of the West, and I would say the West as such. You talk about fighting for the institutions, but aren't you also fighting for the security of the EU as a whole? Because why would Putin hold back in future? Surely, Europe as a whole is now under threat from Putin in a way we've not seen before. You are absolutely right. Of course, Ukraine is the battlefield, but this war that Putin has been now waging for nearly four years is a war that is directed against the European order of peace, of freedom, of the rule of law. And by the way, he's waging a hybrid war against Germany and other European countries like Poland and others for quite a time now. So he has already started in his own notion of war with this war against Europe. So we are not really living any longer in peacetime. We are not at war in our understanding, but we have to see how Putin sees this. Those are fine words, but with respect, how can Ukraine, how can anyone in Europe believe that the EU will stand up to Donald Trump, will stand up to Putin and say this cannot be? Because in the past, you've failed to prevent Donald Trump swallowing Putin's propaganda effectively. Yes, but we have learned the lesson. We should have learned it earlier, but we have learned the lesson definitely. And there is one hour and one day of truth coming on December 19th, when the European Council has to decide upon a loan that is based on the frozen Russian assets and a loan of 150 billion euros to Ukraine in order to fund their defense efforts. This would fund Ukraine for, let's say, two or three years, and it would be not only a word and wording and words of determination, it would be a deed of determination. And this is now even more urgently as it has been even before. Do you believe the EU will hand over that money, particularly at this point where it is clear that the US is withdrawing from the financial help that it's given to Ukraine? I'm absolutely sure because it has now become clear to everybody, even clearer than before after this American move, that we have to provide the funding, that we have to raise up to action in order for our own defense. And this is simply what is necessary and required. I'm absolutely sure that this is going to be done. And I'm very hopeful that also a British contribution to this stance will be seen. Doesn't Trump have a point when he says that Volodymyr Zelensky will have to like these peace proposals because Zelensky is weak at the moment because of the corruption scandal that has engulfed his government? He's not in a position to argue. So it's beyond doubt that fundamental reform has to be done more forcefully within Ukraine. So the fight against corruption has to be done in a more convincing way. I absolutely agree with that. And it's part of the American policy now that in a particular moment of weakness, both militarily and domestically, this American proposal has been made or the Russian American proposal has been made. So exploiting the moment of weakness is part of this policy. Norbert Roedgen, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you so much.