Investor Insights Podcast #52 - Martin Connaghan & Samantha Fitzpatrick, Murray International Trust

This week's episode features a global equity investment strategy focused on stocks with above average and growing dividend income. As we enter 2025, there was a clear and significant market consensus towards continued US dominance and a persistence of the market themes which had been in play over the prior period. However, this consensus has undoubtedly and quite dramatically been put into question over recent months as concerns over trade policy from the US on the economy has increased recessionary fears along with the probability of stickier inflation in the long term. The discipline of dividend investing and the valuation support provided by a resilient above average yielding portfolio can provide some very useful diversification against this backdrop of uncertainty and looks particularly relevant at the current time. We were delighted to be joined by Samantha Fitzpatrick and Martin Conahan from Aberdeen, the managers of the Murray International Trust to discuss further. Welcome to the investor insights podcast hosted by Killik & Co. My name is Gordon Smith, and in each episode, I'll be interviewing portfolio managers from across the investment industry to gain from their expertise in the specialist areas in which they invest and to question them on topical issues. You can access the full series of interviews via the playlist on the Killik & Co YouTube channel or by searching for Killik & Co's investor insights on Spotify, where you can subscribe and be notified of future episodes. We hope you're enjoying the discussion so far, and you can get in contact with us about any of the topics discussed via the email address investorinsights at killik.com. Killik & Co is an independently owned wealth manager, which opened its first office in 1989 and provides services to help families save, plan and invest. And you can find more details on the unique ways in which we do that at our website killik.com. In this week's episode, we were joined by Samantha Fitzpatrick and Martin Conahan, both senior investment directors at Aberdeen. Samantha and Martin joined Aberdeen in 2001 when the company acquired the Glasgow-based investment firm Murray Johnstone, and they've been involved in the management of the company's global equity and income mandates for the last 20 plus years. They both together manage the portfolio of the London listed and one and a half billion pound market cap, Murray International Trust, ticker MYI. Murray International has an investment objective to produce an above average dividend yield, in addition to long term growth in that dividend and capital. And the mandate enables the team the flexibility to invest globally without any geographical, sectoral or industry segment constraints. And the team can also invest in other assets, such as fixed income securities, which it has done over time. Last year the company recorded its 20th consecutive year of dividend growth, which puts it on the often termed dividend heroes list of investment companies. It's used the ability allowed to it as a UK investment trust structure to dip into the revenue reserves to supplement the yield on occasion, and to smooth that progression of payment. But excess revenue held back in other years, mean the reserves currently equate to almost a whole year's worth of dividend payment. This was clearly an interesting time to speak to the management team of a global equity fund given the events of the last several weeks. As I hope will become very evident during this discussion, the Murray International portfolio and the focus and investment style of Samantha and Martin is very different to that of a broader market cap weighted global index. And many of the characteristics to which this portfolio is biased could well be highly relevant for navigating the current market backdrop. We hope you enjoy the conversation. And as always, please get in touch if you'd like any further information. Samantha, Martin, thank you so much for spending some time for this. How are you doing today? Very well, thank you. Yep, very well, thank you. So guys, we've got this kind of standard first question to these and all it really aims to do is get a bit of an insight into kind of how you go about things, how you kind of go about your work. I wondered if one of you can maybe share an anecdote from a recent trip or meeting that you've been on or research projects or even just an article or book. We've had some book recommendations here. Anything you can share just to give us a bit of a look into how you go about things? Yeah, I guess a huge amount of what we do is split quite evenly actually between that balance of research and then also client work. It's a very important sort of jewel of what the role is in our minds. And I guess recently on the research side, I've met with Philip Morris International, a US-based tobacco company. We don't have any ethical overlays per se on Murray International Trust. And that is a business that is really, really transforming itself, making huge strides in its risk and smokeless products, which is about 40% of their business now. So that was a very, very interesting meeting. The company's been performing very, very well. And they just had their members out a couple of days ago where they increased guidance for the rest of the year, being a predominantly international business, the weaker dollar that we're all seeing at the moment has been very, very beneficial for them. So researching and visiting the companies is a very, very important part of what we do. And that's a company that we met with recently. And on the client side, Sam and I are just coming towards the end of a pretty intense period of shareholder meetings, which is a very, very important part of it for us to go out and meet the people who are ultimately responsible to, with regards to the trusted shareholders themselves. So there's been a lot of face-to-face meetings with clients, which is very, very helpful. We had the AGM yesterday as well, which is obviously a very important part of the trust year. And great to see so many shareholders coming out and having the chance to speak to them. So yeah, balancing research and client work and very timely from the point of view, I've just seen a very interesting US company recently and meeting our shareholders at the AGM. We were saying how busy your week's been. So I appreciate you squeezing in time for this at the end of the week. So thank you for that. I wonder, maybe just to frame the discussion or kind of lay the kind of groundwork for the rest of the conversation. Could I ask you just to summarise the main features of Murray International's kind of objectives and its approach, just kind of give us a kind of rundown of what you're doing with the trust? Absolutely. We always start with this. You know, no matter if people have been investors for 20 years or have never heard of Murray International, we always start with a reminder of what our task is and what the objective is. And it's quite a simple one in the sense that they're different components and we try and hit them. So the investment objective is to deliver an above average dividend yield. And that is important at income element to our shareholders. And that's currently about 4.5%. That has been at that level pretty much for a long, long time. And we also try to deliver long-term growth in that income and long-term growth in the capital over time, in real terms. So we compare the growth of the dividend and the growth of the capital side versus the UK inflation number. And what we try to do is cover the income that we provide. So unlike a lot of other global income trusts, we pay out income from the income that's generated from our underlying holdings. And so that means that you're not quite so beholden to what's happening in the outside world on the capital side. And it gives people quite a clear idea of what we are trying to achieve by the investments that we own. And what we do in terms of the approach is to make full use of the global remit. And so anyone who's looking at any fact sheet on Murray International, any shareholder presentation, will see that it is truly global in its approach. We invest in 22 different countries at the moment in terms of the equity exposures. And we have a fairly tight list of names. So we hold currently 48 equities. And that again is fairly typical. The minimum size is 1% and the maximum is 5%. So again, another part of what we do is if stocks are getting strong and that's great, you're wanting them to go up. But if they're hitting that 5% level, that's an automatic shim, you know, so that we're not becoming too fixated or falling too in love with any one individual investment. And that has played this very well over the years as well. So fairly simple. And that's how we've always done things over time. Yeah, no, thanks for that. Yeah, good summary. I'm sure we'll come back into some of those factors that you've just mentioned in later questions. Actually, one of them being geographic positioning. And as you say, very kind of diverse in terms of a global portfolio. But I mean, whenever we look at the Murray International portfolio, it does look quite different to if you just pulled up the MSCI world or kind of a global index does look quite different geographically to some of those, some of those exposures. Could I ask one of you to maybe describe are there any kind of major themes to appreciate again, it's a kind of bottom up portfolio, but any major themes to regional allocations at the minute? I guess for Raiden, a theme would be that requirement for yield. Now, we can get, you know, yield in the United States. But if that's, you know, 65%, give or take of, you know, most global indices, and the yield on that market is one and a half, you know, conceptually, just even from a portfolio construction, then you're tasked with delivering four and a half percent. It's just going to be a tricky area to even get close to being, you know, close to benchmark. And yeah, we can find companies that have attractive yields and we do invest in them. But just even the scale of the US market with the yield of that market, yeah, we can get attractive levels of yield at the stock level, but it's always kind of going to be a bit of a tide that we're swimming against, I guess. And then on the other side of that, the theme is that it is a global trust. So, you know, why wouldn't you at least try to look at some of the other opportunities that reside in other parts of the globe? And we're lucky to have a global research, you know, infrastructure in place at Aberdeen that allows us to do that. So look at, you know, the companies in Latin America and Europe and Asia and the UK. And, you know, see if you can find, you know, companies that are at least as well run and have, you know, the same attractive fundamentals and structural tailwinds behind them, but where you're perhaps not paying that multiple. So it's really driven by the global remit and then that overriding desire and requirement for a, you know, a certain level of yield, which is probably always going to inhibit to an extent to which we can allocate to the US anyway. Yeah. I wonder if we can maybe explore, I mean, you kind of mentioned geographic diversification, but in terms of kind of how else you look at diversification in terms of kind of exposures within the portfolio, if you were to kind of bluntly screen the equity universe just for yield, you kind of naturally get kind of quite a lot of biases towards certain industry segments. When you look at our domestic market, the UK market's probably quite an extreme version of that. You look at the yielding elements of the UK and you instantly go into kind of big industry segments rather than others. Can I ask you to maybe explain how you kind of think about balancing those within the portfolio? I'm thinking about things like the cyclical areas, things like the miners, the banking sector that kind of often pay a yield kind of versus kind of other structural themes. Is there a way you look at kind of balancing those? Yeah, it's a really good point because I think sometimes in the past you have found it difficult to be spread across sectors. One thing that helps hugely is that we don't have a minimum dividend yield that every stock's got to deliver that 4.5% yield that it's not acceptable for the trust. There is a barbell approach in operations, so that widens up your opportunity set hugely. So whereas each and every holding has to contribute to the income, we can't just carry lots of stocks that don't pay any yield because that would be very difficult to hit the income target. But if you've got a tech stock and we do have some tech stocks at a 1.5% dividend yield currently and it's growing and you've seen that appetite and willingness to reward shared holders in that way and you also think there's capital upside there, that's acceptable because you have the opportunity then to, on the other side, have your higher weight. It could be in some of the cyclical names, it could be in some of the telcos that are not perhaps the most exciting from a capital perspective but they're really reliable when it comes to contributing more to the income side. So having that flexibility around sectors has been very, very useful over time and it's meant that the overall NAV returns as well haven't swung hugely over the years. It's been really interesting I think over the past three calendar years, 2022, 2023 and 2024, in a very, very different market environment in each of those years. The total NAV returns being 8.something percent positive every one of those years for Mint and it meant that in 2022 when tech was really out of favour, that was their worst performing category, that was offset by other things doing really well at that time but, you know, tuning into the last two calendar years and tech's at the top of the pile and we've been able to get exposure to that because of the flexibility that we have around the income side of things. So that's been really important and I think companies themselves have really wakened up to the fact that it's not necessarily a bad thing to do at the end, you know, people actually like a bit of certainty and a bit of income if it makes sense for the business. So at one time I think being an income paying US tech stock you would have been categorised as ex-growth, you know, and that's a bit out of favour and unloved by some sections of the market but, you know, you can, we did actually pick up Broadcom for example on a seven percent evident yield five years ago and that's, you know, one example of a kind of company that has worked for us on the capital side but it has certainly done well on the income side at times also. So it's just about, again, broadening your opportunity if you can while in total trying to, you know, tick the box when it comes to maintaining the income that our shareholders expect and like. Yeah I know, some important points in there, that kind of reliability of kind of three cycle returns is important in our view, yeah. I think we've done well not to get this behind the conversation and not mention the US administration and trade policy but I'm afraid I am going to have to ask you just because it's just been such an extraordinary kind of last few weeks really since that Liberation Day speech and whilst I appreciate very much the kind of policies kind of changing, I mean, almost on a daily if not intraday at the moment, I just wonder whether you had any kind of early observations or kind of takeaway comments from the recent period and how the strategies navigated there. I appreciate it's kind of a difficult point in time but just any thoughts on kind of how you've gone about things the last recent period? Yeah it's been so interesting, I mean we did have to sort of alter our intended Easter break plans a little bit just because of, you know, what was going on. It has been important to be in front of what's going on but it has also been helpful at times for us to take a bit of a step back and then actually not try to get, you know, caught up in the noise because that really is what it is. Nobody at this stage knows whether we're talking about an absolute shift in geopolitical relations and trade and the global economy, is this a change that is happening or is it going to, you know, completely walk back on, you know, most of what has been announced to date and if you don't really know then it's very hard to, nor should you be hanging your hat on any investment decision that's based on that because it could just literally vanish. So, you know, the trust began the year in a reasonable fashion anyway, you know, markets were already weakening a bit, namely the US and namely tech and as mentioned we are typically quite light in both of those areas from a from an asset allocation perspective. So into that weakness and on the other side, Latin American markets, European markets had fared much better. So the trust in that environment was doing no more or no less than what we would expect of it, you know, the trust historically has held up in a weaker market environment. Again, unsurprising given the style, it is a little bit more value, it's a little bit more defensive, it should do that and so it was doing that anyway. You know, sort of then into the view of volatility, yet the sort of exposures to consumer staples, the exposures to, you know, some of the financial stocks that we have that are actually quite counter cyclical in a way, names like CME for example, in the US which is just, you know, whether the market's going up or down, it's volume for them, it's people trying to hedge risk. So it has been doing particularly well and some insurance companies have been doing well, you know, but then that itself shifted, then the administration started talking about healthcare and then the healthcare stocks started to unwind. So I mean, the upside is that the portfolio performance thus far year to date has been positive, has been strong, has been robust. As mentioned, that's no more or no less than we would expect of it. And the important thing for you know, when it is very noisy to try and take that step back and to just focus on what it is that we tell shareholders we're going to deliver for them and focus on that. And if that means that we can take opportunity with regards to what's going on in markets at the moment with a longer term investment time arising in mind, you know, if you would do it anyway, without all the other noise, then it's probably the right thing to do. It may well be the right thing to also, you know, potentially look at some of the positions that have been very robust and to maybe recycle a bit of capital, you know, into areas that have been weak. It feels horrible when you're doing that at the time because you're selling something that's going nowhere to buying something that could conceivably continue to fall. But you know, that's normally not a bad decision to do so. And performance has been robust. We are absolutely looking for opportunity and we'll look to take that. But it is equally important to sort of ignore the noise and really focus on what it is you're telling your client, your stakeholder that you're going to deliver for them and stay focused on that. Yes, stay focused on the process. Yeah, thank you. I wonder if we can move on to some of the other kind of levers that you have with the investment trust structure and the flexibility of the mandate because you have had and have the ability to allocate to fixed income, to bonds at times to supplement that income. Could I ask you to summarise kind of the considerations that go into that kind of asset allocation and the other tools that you have at your disposal with the closing structure to implement the strategy? Yeah, again, I think we're very, very fortunate in this mandate that you have so much choice. If equities are causing you a real problem, and occasionally they do, in terms of delivering that income and capital mandate together, then we do have the flexibility to look at fixed income. And we have done this only twice in size over the last 20 years. So it's not something that we're constantly thinking about, but if you're kind of pushed there, if then you're seeing a real, real true opportunity in fixed income and it's going to help deliver the mandate, then that's great to have that ability to do so. Going back to the early part of the 2000s, at that time, equity yields were pretty tight. We were finding it hard to get the income that we required from equities. So the decision was made then to invest in gilt and invest in treasuries that were helping to deliver the mandate. The idea behind that was we would hold them. We typically do operate a buy and hold approach for both equities and bonds. But then the GSB came along and the world changed very rapidly, and we were able to sell those bonds and the equity pick up in things like really solid staples businesses and things like that, that were, again, giving you yield again, as you would expect them to in most circumstances. So there was a kind of quick change around then. And then going back to 10 years ago now, where we saw some opportunity was within emerging market debt. And what popped out very interesting to us was that the corporate bonds of some of the equities that we already held were looking at crazy valuations and crazy yields. So things like Bali, the Brazilian mining company, we were happy with the quality of that business from an equity standpoint. So therefore, why wouldn't you look at the corporate if you're getting yield pick up? At that time, that was more a specific asset class emerging market debt decision. We did put some money to work there. Now, we did that at that time, working very closely with our colleagues and the emerging market team within Aberdeen. So these people do know the technical side of things much, much better than we would, sitting predominantly on an equities desk. But again, that ability within Aberdeen is there, if and when the opportunity arises. And again, roll on 10 years, and we've sold a lot of those bonds because they've held up extremely well during COVID. And again, at that time, we were getting opportunities like Broadcom, like Abwi, US healthcare company, offering you more opportunity on the yield front. So where we currently stand, it's about 6% of the net assets of Murray International. It's not a huge part to And that weighting is spread across 12 different holdings. So whereas in the equity side, the minimum position would be 1%. That's never been the case for the fixed income side, we tend to have smaller positions and more holdings. And where we think it will go going forward, it kind of partly depends on what happens in market. But we're currently sitting with these positions kind of in no man's land. And if we see again, opportunities for yield pick or, you know, obviously, more potential on the capital side, and within equities, then we're not a bear to take it down further, we could have nothing, it's not that we have to have anything there. And so it's just great to have the flexibility. And the other aspects of the investment trust structure, which we are very, very fortunate to have is things like having hearings where it's appropriate. So we're currently about 6% geared, again, that's not on purpose, but we've got 6% in fixed income, 6% gearing, that just happens to be the same. But we take on gearing if and when it makes sense, i.e. how much is it costing you? And at the moment, again, that's been coming down because we had a couple of tranches of debt up for renewal in the last two years, and we decided not to renew them just to pay them back, because the yields, the interest we were being quoted on that debt were three times what they had been. So where we currently stand, we've got two tranches of debt, one is up for renewal in 2031, and the next one's 2037. So we don't have to really think about renegotiating for quite some time. And the total of that debt is $110 million at a weighted average interest rate of just over 2.5%. So where we stand now, we think that's absolutely fine. We will continue to see if there's any better deals out there, we may take on some more, it's a board decision, but with their input. But we don't have to have a certain amount as well, it's only if it makes sense in terms of where you're going to put that money, can you make money on that, how confident are you of doing that over time? And final thing just to point out with the investment trust structure is the ability to smooth your income to your shareholders, i.e. you can have reserves, you can tuck money away for a rainy day. And given that Moray International has been around for many, many years, this has been formed in 1907, it's been very prudently managed, I think, over time, so we're in a very fortunate position to have a healthy rainy day fund, and the reserves currently stand at £74 million, which is over one year's worth of total income payments, it works out to about 12.3 pence per share, and we are paying out 11.8% currently. So that's great, I mean, it's just meant that throughout COVID, throughout lots of different, you know, incidents, there's even currencies that have worked against you, and it's caused the income side to be a bit tight in terms of trying to achieve that covered dividend, it's absolutely fine to dip into reserves, because what you tend to find, and it has happened even over the last few years, is that yeah, you do go in if it's required, in 2020, we went into the tune of 10 million, in order to keep that dividend going throughout the very difficult COVID time. But then, you know, we paid back last year, we paid back, sorry, we paid back in 2022, 2023, in order to replenish those reserves again, as things were looking a bit more positive. And so I just think when you look at the, you know, the EPS over time, if you look at the dividends per share over time, you can see the power of that in terms of moving out the income. And again, that's really important to shareholders, you know, to have a bit more consistency than would otherwise be the case. So it's a feature of this type of trust, and it goes down very well in certain areas. Yeah, 100% agree with that. Yeah, some really important points there. Thank you. Two more questions. I'm conscious I've asked you a lot of kind of top down questions for a team that is spending most of their day looking at looking at bottom up and looking at companies, but I have one more top down. And then we'll maybe finish off with looking at some, some actual opportunities in the in the in the in the in the portfolio. But I wondered if you could kind of talk us through the opportunity set for global equity income investing at the moment, we've had some quite kind of broad market trends recently, kind of increasing concentration in markets and some of these factors are increasing passive investment, for example, and then and then this big change in the interest rate, the kind of macro economic environment. I just wonder whether you could kind of talk us through how the opportunity set from your perspective is kind of changed and how it looks at the moment, given given some of those trends that we've been through? Yeah, I mean, it's it's no problem to be talking about the top down as bottom up as Sam and I may be, you know, it is what dominates the headlines. People tend to talk about and if you're managing a global, you have to be mindful of these of these factors. I mean, yeah, it has been interesting for a very, very long time, you know, post the GFC up until pretty much just coming out of COVID. That low rate, no rate, no inflation, abundant liquidity, you know, everything was hyper growth and very, very long investment time horizons. And yeah, income was perhaps not really at the front of most people's minds during that time and understandably so. We still stuck to what we do during that time. We don't chop and change what we do. We stick to what we do and allow shareholders or prospective shareholders to then make their call on whether it's appropriate for them. But you're right, you know, I think more recently, you know, we've started to see inflationary cycles and interest rate cycles and market cycles. Now, to us, you know, these things are very, very normal. It was actually that period from coming out of the GFC up until post COVID, it was abnormal. And those things are, you know, perfectly healthy and perfectly normal. And they do, you know, support or make sense or make an income allocation potentially more relevant for an investor, because things, I don't think over the coming years, if we're moving away from having these cycles more regularly, then, you know, a market cycle is probably an environment where you do need to at least sort of consider having something in the portfolio or your allocation that is some lot more, you know, stodgier or defensive in nature and income over time, as we all know, still makes up a reasonable amount, you know, of total returns. So I think, you know, the next few years are certainly not going to be like the last, you know, 10 or so years. And that could, you know, well, make sense for equity income mandates. On the things such as, you know, the equity valuations and passive and concentration, those independently are, they're interesting, but I don't think necessarily risks independently. You know, the market has been concentrated before, and the last time it was, the market subsequently fell, but it didn't fall because of those seven companies at the time, it fell because of, you know, things like the tech bubble and subsequent Asian crisis and the like, you know, those seven companies weren't really caught up in that. And Microsoft, interestingly, is obviously the only company that is, you know, constant between both types. But the companies, other companies back then still do now what they did back then, AIG, Chevron, Exxon, Citigroup, Microsoft is still there because it's changed, it's dynamic, it shifts, what its growth drivers now aren't what its growth drivers were then. And I think all of those big tech companies that we're referring to, they will continue to do that. Market valuations as well. Yeah, I mean, if you look at it, and it's important to look at these things, if you look at cyclically adjusted PEs in a historical context, and it did at least look, you know, up to the upper levels of that, but you would have to concede that the companies are generating better returns than they did back then. So a degree of premium is surely warranted. It's always important to be mindful of valuation, but you can't just say, oh, it looks expensive, therefore, you know, watch out. And then to the scale of passive as well, I think that's also, you know, the growth in passive. So it's the combination of the scale and the growth of passive. I'm not necessarily, we're not necessarily concerned about those big six or seven companies per se, I actually think it's more of a potential issue for the other, you know, 493. Are they just getting bid up because of that flow of capital? You know, that's meant to happen based upon, you know, perception of risk and reward. And if it is just constant buying the same companies because of a certain scale and an index, surely there's a degree of distortion there. So that, coupled with elevated multiples, coupled with market concentration, yeah, maybe that's something to be certainly mindful of. But you know, we've already seen a degree of that maybe coming through in the earlier part of this year, ahead of the announcements in early April. So yeah, it's an interesting time. And I think the environment going forward, the environment more recently has probably been more, you know, conducive to an equity income mandate making more sense. And yeah, I think that could well continue. We have this standard question to finish up. And it asks for the speakers in this instance to highlight an area of the investment universe that they have particularly high conviction in at the moment. And I wonder if there is kind of an area that kind of typifies the opportunities that you're seeing at the moment that you could kind of share? Sure, there's two stocks. Two quite different ones. The first I'll mention is Groupo Azur, a stock that most people won't ever have heard of really, but it's a position that has been held in Money International for about 20 years. It's a Mexican airport operator, and it has various different assets. The main one is Cancun airport, so driven a lot by tourism. And the cash flows on this thing have been phenomenal over the years. You know, it definitely has more than earned its keep in terms of the income that is generated. But it's come to a point now that it's surpassed all expectations. So just on Wednesday of this week, the shareholders authorised a really bumper dividend payment. So this puts the stock on a 15% dividend yield. And it's going to be paid out throughout the course of this year. It's not all in a one hour. But in terms of a company that has played out probably better even than expected, that's one I would highlight. So that's been one that just shows you if you're patient enough, you know, it's still a bit too exciting. It's not like we've had to wait 20 years to get this. But you know, if you can stick to why you're investing in it, the cash flows are so important for the companies that we look at. And so that's one that certainly has been very pleasing very recently. And the other one that hasn't come good yet, but we're still sticking with is a relatively new addition. We introduced Taylor Rimpey into the trust about six months ago. Something very different for us. We do have a bit of UK exposure, but the UK exposure that we have had up to last September was the global companies that happened to be listed in the UK. So it's the likes of your BAT, your Diageo, names like that. Taylor Rimpey is of course, the only really UK domestic stock that we own. Again, relatively small. It's one of the biggest players in its category, but with a market cap of about 4 billion sterling, that's pretty small for us in terms of what we would look at. But we went for that company because we like the management team. We like the land bank that it has. We like the spread that it has up and down the country and the spread of properties on offer. And so you're not able to just be holding on London doing well or big family homes doing well. It's got a good spread of businesses. And what caught our eye and decided, in our point of view, that it was a viable holding for us was the 8% dividend yield, which we think is pretty well supported. So we bought it early. This is a criticism that we would absolutely hold our hands up and say, yeah, we do tend to buy early because we're hopefully going to hold these companies for a long time. So we always initiate at 1%, and this one's been a bit of a dog for us so far. It's had a bit more signs of life recently, but that's one that we do think is quite interesting. And so while we're waiting for the capital side to deliver in time, we think that 8% dividend yield is really pretty attractive and quite sustainable here. Sorry, I didn't really answer your question. That was two for the price of one. No, that's all good. Yeah, very good examples and two very, very different examples as well. So thank you. Guys, thank you so much for your time after a busy week. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Investor Insights podcast hosted by Killik & Co. You can get in contact using our podcast email address, investorinsightsatkillik.com. For more information on any of the topics discussed, or for further details on the services offered by Killik & Co, this podcast is not personal advice. The content is intended for educational purposes only, and is not investment research, or a recommendation to buy or sell any financial instrument or product, or to adopt any investment strategy. The value of your investments can rise as well as fall, and you could get back less than you invested. Past performance is not a guide to future performance. The investments referred to in this podcast may not be suitable for all investors, and you should seek advice from a qualified investment advisor. Killik & Co. is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority, the FCA.