Crushing Debt vs. Personal Responsibility: The Student Loan Debate | Dr. Phil Primetime

Well, you know, tonight's topic can be summed up in five words. Should student loans be forgiven? Yeah! Oh, really? Five words that have divided many and sparked outrage and even protest at the foot of the Supreme Court. Now, many see forgiveness as another government handout of free money with zero accountability. And leaving the American taxpayer footing the bill. They see it as a slap in the face to all those who worked to never have debt of their own as well as those who never attended college themselves. Now, champions of forgiveness say many of the 40 plus million borrowers need their loans forgiven and forgiven now. Because the debt is like a financial albatross hanging around their neck. Well, tonight we're going to hear both sides. Because look, I want to own the debate lane. I really do. I want both sides to come here and talk about things that matter to people who care. And also, let me be clear. This isn't about winning an argument. It's about finding a solution. Now, my first guest, Dr. Shamel Bell, says the debt for her higher education, including a Ph.D., adds up to a quarter of a million dollars. She says the day to begin paying her loans back is looming, leaving her in a panic. Take a look. I'm a first generation high school graduate. And I have a Ph.D. from UCLA. And I'm a lecturer at Harvard University. I've met the requirements of success. But the amount of debt that I am in is unbelievable. $250,000 of student loan debt and tens of thousands of credit card debt. Even though I had tuition remission, what about my basic needs? I had to take additional loans in order to survive. I don't have a family that can help me. I worked hard through illness and used my education so that I could make a difference. And I'm still struggling. Some minimum payments can be like $600 for my credit cards. I haven't even started paying back my student loan debt. Sorry, I'm having a panic attack. The inability to sleep, the panic attacks. I don't even buy things. I don't have the money. I can barely eat sometimes. And when my program is up, I saw that my student loan debt balance for every month is over $1,000. I can't afford that. Canceling student debt is not only legal, it's absolutely necessary. I worked hard. I've never been lazy. I don't even feel a way out. Thanks for being here to talk about this. You're worried about this burden, right? This is a big debt. Absolutely. I'm panicking even watching this back. Even having this conversation, and it's so charged, I just feel like I was set up to fail. I don't have access that other people have in society with family, support generational wealth. And so I did everything. I worked extremely hard through disability. So one thing about me, I could probably get my loans canceled with total disability. And a lot of people are like, oh, if you have a disability, you can get your loan canceled. But I don't want a handout. It's really infuriating for people to say, oh, you just want a handout. I don't want a handout. In fact, I can get public service loan forgiveness because I am a public servant. I went to get this education to actually teach and help shift society to make sure that people after me don't have to go through what I went through. I saw that you love merit, your media, as well as in your book. And I just want to ask the question about who is deserving when you talk about meritocracy, when you're not thinking about socioeconomic background, who is deserving of having access to this wealth when we have historical legacy of not being able to have access to education, housing, fair employment, wage, you know, disparities and such? You've worked really hard, right? Yes. And, I mean, so people know, you went to University of Southern California as an undergrad, UC San Diego for a master's, UCLA for a PhD. You grew up in South Central LA, and you've really worked hard, been teaching black feminist theory and media and performance. You've been a Harvard lecturer. You didn't just get your degree and go home and sip a mint julep. You got out there and started mixing it up. And you say this makes you feel like less of a person. How so? Absolutely feel like less of a person because I feel like people look at me and they see my student debt and they say, you should have made better decisions. I had no other choice because of the living expenses because people say sometimes like, oh, well, you know, you should have gotten scholarships. I did have full tuition scholarships. And then also when you get a PhD, you work as a TA to get your tuition paid. But who's going to help me with living expenses? I was in California. How is my rent going to be paid? How am I going to eat? Your point is you weren't spending this money on vacation. No. You were spending this money on bare necessities. You know, we do our homework, and that's why I said you've worked hard and you spent this money responsibly. Absolutely. But you did have to have the money or you wouldn't get the degree. Absolutely. And you didn't have to get the degree, but you wanted the degree. And so you chose to take on the debt to get the degree. And that's interesting that you say you don't have to get a degree. For someone like myself to get an equal playing field, a black woman, there's wage disparities. There's, you know, when we understand that women get paid less, I have to get a higher education degree for a job that someone that doesn't look like me can just walk in and may be able to get. So I feel like I had to get this degree. And in order to be someone that can change things in society, people wouldn't listen to me if I wasn't Dr. Shamel Bell. If I came up here and just told you I was from South Central Los Angeles and you need to give me free education, you might be like, okay, you just, yes, free education. But if I can tell you I did not just get a dance degree, I have that, too, because art and dance saved my life. But I have an American history degree, so I understand historical context and legacy. Did you get what you consider to be marketable degrees? They're marketable in theory, but not in practice because housing and everything is so expensive. All right, coming up, my next guest says his nearly $150,000 in student loan debt has at times left him feeling hopeless and, well, like a failure, which is, you say this makes you feel not like a person sometimes. We're gonna add him to the conversation after the break. Cozy Earth is here to transform your after-work hours, the time you unwind, recharge, and reconnect into the most comfortable part of your day. 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In addition, students who come from low-income families will have their debt reduced to $20,000. Both of these targeted actions are for families who need it the most. Well, when President Biden promised student loan forgiveness, the argument about whether that free money handout should happen or not sparked furious debate throughout the country. Now, that debate took on a lot of different colors, and I've used the word forgiveness because that's the way it's described in the media. But make no mistake, there is no forgiveness. It doesn't just go pfft and go away. Somebody pays that debt. It's just, is it the student, or is it all of us? Now, my next guest, Bradley, says he has $147,000 in student loan debt and says there have been times where the stress of the payments have destroyed his life. There was a version of me before my student loan debt and after my student loan debt. I never got back to myself after falling into this situation. I got my first loan at the age of 17 when I started culinary school. Before my 21st birthday, I was in over $130,000 of student loan debt. My student loan payment is $915. I pay it in full every month. In order to make my monthly payment and to keep up with my student loan debt, I do work at a nonprofit teaching financial literacy. I work on a crisis hotline. I do dog sitting. I clean houses. There's kind of almost nothing I'm not willing to do just to be able to earn money to try to make my situation better. I've paid about $70,000 towards my student loan debt, and it's only increased. I still owe more now than when I originally started paying 10 years ago. To be so young in so much debt after everyone encouraged you to go to college and to get your degree, it was the worst decision I could have made. It got so bad to the point where I felt like the only way this problem is going to go away is if I go away. And I really thought at one point when it was at its worst that that would be the only solution. Bradley, thanks for being here. You say that taking out your loans for college is one of the biggest regrets of your life. To this day, it still is the biggest regret of my life. I was 17 years old and a senior in high school, and I knew I wanted to go to culinary school. And I thought, if I want to be the best and have the best future, I should go to the best school. And it was the top culinary school in America, and I have lived with this for the past 10 years of my life, and the last thing that this degree has done was pay off immediately. And you say it's destroyed your mental health. Oh, absolutely. I feel like I did everything right to set myself up for success in my future, only to realize getting my college degree absolutely destroyed any future that I thought that I had for myself. And it wasn't until a week before graduation that they set up an exit interview through the school, and they sat me down and said, okay, congratulations, your student loan payment is going to be $1,400 a month. And there was no conversation beforehand. When you take out the loans, no one gave any financial education to explain this is what interest means, this is what compounding interest means. At 17, you didn't understand all of that. Who does? I know adults who don't even have a budget because they don't know how to. So we're relying on teenagers to understand what all of this means. And you say you've been living like you're mentally homeless. You haven't purchased clothes, holes in your shoes. Yeah, it could be embarrassing for folks. I'm very proud to say that I am wearing the shoes that I've had since 2012. They do have holes in them, and it represents what I dedicated my life to because even though I took on this student loan debt, not really realizing the mess I was making and hoping that my degree was going to pay off, I made the sacrifices to live this way, to try to turn my situation around. Have you ever missed a payment? No. No, I've made my payments in full, on time, but because of the high interest, and it compounds daily, every time I make that payment, by the time it's ready to make my next payment, it grew back. So I'm doing everything by the book. I'm working hard, I'm making my payments full, I'm making them on time, but the system is set up to keep you in the system. It's not set up for you to succeed. Okay, so you borrowed about 130, you've paid in 70, Yes. and you still owe how much? $147,000 to this day. Okay, but when you got out, did you get a job in your profession? Yes. How much were you being paid an hour? That job, I believe, was $12 an hour. I lived this way with holes in my shoes because I wanted to save every dollar I could to try to make my situation better because no one was going to help me. You can't just return your college degree. Once you got it, you got it. So the return on investment wasn't there? No, and it's so frustrating that people say, well, why did you do it? Well, how about you look at the culinary school's website that says not only will it pay off immediately, but getting this degree is going to potentially earn you much more than other culinary schools. Well, if it was on the website, it has to be true. But that's the predatory part, that they're selling the dream, but you bought the lie. So the question is, should student loans be forgiven? Dr. Bell says yes, but not everyone agrees. Next, a college grad who says his tax dollars should not pay off someone else's debt. After the break. Homeowners, when's the last time you checked on your home title? If your answer is never, then this is for you. Scammers are stealing titles and your equity is the target. Criminals forge your signature and just like that, your home title can be transferred out of your name. That's why I partnered with Home Title Lock, so you can find out today if you're already a victim. Use my promo code Phil at hometitlelock.com and you'll get a free title history report. Plus you'll get a free trial of their million dollar triple lock protection. That's 24 seven monitoring of your title. Urgent alerts to any changes and if fraud does happen, they'll spend up to a million dollars to fix it. That's hometitlelock.com promo code Phil. This court has ruled that the Biden administration does not have the authority to enact this debt forgiveness program. So more than 40 million student loan borrowers will not get up to $20,000 in loans canceled. Race, class, gender all play an important role to my access. This isn't just about student loan debt. This is about equal access to generational wealth. I do support student loan forgiveness, but there should be merit behind it. Widespread forgiveness wasn't going to solve any problems. If we're not changing the system, we'll just be sitting here 10 years later having the same conversation. This student loan forgiveness program is done. Well, when the Supreme Court struck down President Biden's student loan forgiveness plan, it ignited protest and anger from many graduates who claim they need debt relief. Now, my next guest, Xavier, is a college graduate who says he worked hard to ensure he never had a college loan and does not support forgiveness for those who do. I went to the University of Illinois with an academic full ride. My scholarships came from putting my back into my education. So why should I be responsible for paying off someone else's debt? The President of the United States does not have the authority to do this. There is no world where you would consider this to be fair. It is a slap in the face of those who have paid their own way and now lost out on the government handout that we cannot afford as a country. What makes this debt more righteous than the small plumber who took out a loan to buy a new van or the person who got a mortgage? Or what makes it fair to the person who paid off their debts, to the parent who just wrote the last check for their son or daughter to go to college? No one forced you to get those loans, so don't force me to pay it off. Xavier, you didn't have a cakewalk either, and you're saying you made the sacrifices, you did the hard work, you did the things to not get in that position, and now they're going to expect you to bail out the people who took the loans, and you don't think that's fair? It's not fair. You know, student loan forgiveness 100% is a slap in the face of those of us who have bent over backwards to not be in that situation. So for context, I grew up broke and uncomfortable, and I saw the writing on the wall. I knew in high school that I was not going to be able to afford college, but I also saw the trap that is student loans. So what I did is I put my entire back into my education. I never had a B. I had straight A pluses. I was working 20 plus hours a week while also in 15 different clubs over the course of high school, and just in case that wasn't enough, I was also running track. I was a four-time state medalist just in case I needed to depend on a track scholarship. I wasn't running out of passion. I was running to get the rent paid. I was running for a check. I was running for scholarship options, and God willing, I ended up getting an academic full ride to the University of Illinois because I handled my business. America is a free country, but this is not the United States of Section 8, so you cannot sit here. It's not. You can't be a part of the 12% of people in America who have student loan debt and then look at the 88% of us who aren't in that situation and expect us to pay off the decision you made. Your strategy was take longer if I have to, do whatever, but I'm not going in to debtor's prison for this. I'm not going to let them lock me up like you've been in this situation where he's paid for, how many years have you been paying now? 10 years, I graduated. You've been paying for 10 years and it was more than he did when he started. You didn't want to be in that situation. And I'm not in that situation because I didn't make that decision. I saw that coming a mile away. I did the research on student loans and I saw the way these interest rates balloon, and I just knew that wasn't something that I was willing to take as an option. Who counseled you to do that? Myself. Yeah. Did that ever occur to you to look into these and see how this might work out? Well, I mean, I know a comment that I get a lot on my content is, well, you should have done your research. You should have looked at the salary that you could have been making. So I did look at that, but that doesn't always guarantee that that's going to be your outcome. Just like on, again, the school sells you, this degree is going to be worth it. So as a 17-year-old, I, unfortunately, I guess I just kind of followed that path and I thought I was in good hands. Everyone was encouraging me to make this decision. Not one person said, well, look at this cost. Mm-hmm. Should you think of this? Right. So you wanted to believe the dream for Easy Street, and it turned out to be the nightmare on Elm Street, and you didn't know that until you got in there, and you've actually considered suicide. Yeah, and there's so many stories that are like this. At night, I would just look up to the ceiling because I couldn't even sleep because I was so stressed, not only with all of life going on, but the student loan debt and just carrying that regret with me. And, you know, again, when you make these payments in full and on time, you're working hard, you're doing the right thing, but the problem isn't going away because this is how the system is set up. I literally got to the point where I was like, the only way this problem goes away is if I go away with it. I just want to be clear. Your life is worth more than $147,000. Let me assure you. I did the same things that you did, though. I got scholarships. I worked hard, so... Excuse me. Acknowledge what I'm telling you. Yes. You hear me? I absolutely agree. Right. You hear it, too, right? No, that's honestly why I'm responding. Yeah.