How China's Operating Rooms Turned Into Execution Grounds: Dr. Torsten Trey

Living people are killed for their organs. Executions were shifted from the courtroom to the operation room. 16 years ago, the first whistleblowers emerged from China with a story that few could believe. The Chinese regime was killing prisoners of conscience for their organs. Organ harvesting turned the previous persecution form of torturing to death into a profitable business. Today, I sit down with Dr. Dr. Torstston Trey, co-founder and executive director of the nonprofit Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting, which just released a special report on the issue. If the Chinese government is willing to kill people on an industrial level, you think of what mindset is that we didn't react to it in time probably because we we thought China is so far away and a few years later you are hit by a pandemic that is spread from China. This is American thought leaders and I'm Yana Kellik. Dr. Torstston Trey, such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders. Well, thank you for having me. You know, Dr. Trey, this has been a long time coming. I remember back in 2006 when I first realized that this murder for organs industry in China was real and I started reporting on it. There was a small nonprofit that began in the same year called Doctors Against Forced Organ Harvesting and you were one of the co-founders. Um, and we've interacted in various ways over the years. Before we go any further, just lay it out for me. What is this what you call forced organ harvesting? Yeah, frost organ harvesting is is a practice that actually in in 2006 nobody actually would think it could happen. We created this name. It was our NGO that came up with this term. It is the forceful uh extraction of organs used for transplantation. The typical way of giving a consent before you uh donate an organ that has been bypassed. people are actually killed. Living people are killed for their organs. And um I think it's fair to say that it only happens in China because in a in a large scale it can only occur when the state is kind of promoting this this crime and it has reached industrial level. This is arguably the the biggest violation of medical ethics in history and unbelievable when you frame it that way. Well, let let's go back a little bit. Why don't you just tell me where this came from? Where this idea to start this nonprofit came from, why it was needed, and why in 2006? Yeah. In in 2006, I learned from a newspaper, the Epoch Times, that um witnesses from China came forward. They witnessed how in a in a hospital in Sujet Chun, organs or tissues were harvested from Fongong practitioners. That was so outrageous that it caught my attention. And in the just in that month, March of 2006, there were actually three people coming forward. A reporter, the wife of a surgeon who took corneas from from Fong practitioners and an anonymous u military doctor, veteran military doctor who who added even more details. It was beyond my imagination. I could hardly believe it. And uh I followed this case and then two months later I saw that um the the vice president of the European Parliament, Everett McMillan Scott, he went to he followed that case too. He went to China. He met with two Fangong practitioners who told him that they saw a friend who died in detention who had holes in the body. And that was another piece of evidence that came together. Two months later, I heard about the report from David Kild Kilgore and David Metas uh who conducted u phone interviews with hospitals in China and they indeed recorded that doctors in the Chinese hospitals said they they take organs from fungicers because those are fresh organs. So at that time this was very shocking and uh I decided to go in July 2006 to attend the World Transplant Congress in Boston and uh I was thinking maybe I I find some more hints. So there were of course doctors also from China and I uh I talked to two of them. One of them he was from from the TNEN hospital. He said last year they performed 2,000 liver transplantations and that was a astronomical number. So I I asked other doctors from other countries. In Argentina they performed 200 liver transplants per year. In Germany there were I believe it was 700 uh transplants per year. And here we are in just from one hospital in Tangen. uh they performed 2,000 liver transplants. So that was adding another factor to the scope of transplantation that took place in China. And uh at last I I talked to um a doctor who was invited back to China to open a transplant department. But at that time he was actually just working in a in a university in Germany and he only conducted transplants on animals. So I was wondering how come that that he was invited back to China to open a transplant department and he said there was just this demand to open transplant department and I said where where do all those organs come from? because uh transplantation depends on organs from donors and he he said those organs are coming from fung practitioners. So at that point and that took all place within half a year all these aspects hints and pieces of evidence and what what was really striking was none of these witnesses were fallong practitioners and they were all hinting that organs were harvested from fallong practitioners. So if you want some um objectivity here you have it. So at that point uh I decided there must be um more investigation and and yeah awareness and I decided well just my voice is not big enough if I want really attention I would need to to start an NGO and that's how the idea of founding doctors against force organ harvesting came about. You know, it might be amazing to people that are listening that a doctor from China admitted to you that these organs were coming from falling practitioners. Now, the context of this is that, you know, this was a group that had been demonized and targeted for eradication in the words of Jung Zammen who was been the dictator at the time and issued the order. So, it's possible for someone to say something like that with a straight face or just imagine, not realize that how utterly barbaric it might sound. I mean, what h how did you react to that? Definitely, it's barbaric. It is unfathomable. And um I would think that because of the this practice being beyond our imagination that that was the best way to hide the practice. When I was um discussing this topic with other doctors at medical conferences, they were listening and uh they were also seeing what data we produce and show. But at the end they still said they can hardly believe this. this is happening because it is beyond what we in the west would think is possible. It's just beyond our thinking. So why don't you give me a broad picture of the kind of lines of evidence that exist and this has developed substantially since 2006 um that that document the reality of this uh question of uh evidence you know what evidence you have this question comes up very often if you want to get an short summary of this there's evidence related to the transplant numbers evidence related ated to the organ source where the organs come from how they are donated and then uh witnesses coming forth. So over the time we followed the numbers of transplants and the the transplant numbers in China are just out of proportion. If you follow the course of uh transplant annual transplant numbers and compared with other countries then you see in China this is almost like a roller coaster. It's go it goes up, it goes down, it stays on a level for 10 years, it goes up again. You do not find this type of development in other countries that are based on ethical organ donation. In other countries, you find like a steady gradual increase of organ donors and then also transplants. But in in China, this seems to be decoupled. Just recently in 2020, you see this example that a doctor team wanted to perform a double lung transplant on a co patient and then just within one day they said they they got the matching lung and performed the transplant. This is unthinkable in a in a western uh transplant um um environment. So the it seems like organs are coming for from on demand to facilitate transplants on demand. So the wait time in in China is usually just considered between two days and 14 days. Um it's very typical. There was um a um a camera team from Korea, southern Korea, that went with a hidden camera to one of these hospitals. And they filmed a a nurse that who was accommodating patients from Korea. And the nurse was saying, "Yeah, usually it takes two weeks uh to get a kidney, but if you pay uh $10,000 extra, you can get it within two days." And this is unheard of that just because of uh an extra money you pay for an extra fee you can accelerate the wait time and accelerate it to two days. So nothing in terms of transplantation numbers is kind of uh reflecting anything that you see in in all other countries in the world. So that this is one part the transplant numbers the the weight times um but then also the donor numbers. Um we monitored a website where the numbers of organ donations were uh displayed and we monitored this for 18 months over 18 months. What we saw is that there was a gradual very slow increase of registered organ donors and then all of a sudden on at the end of 2015 within one day it increased by 25,000 exactly 25,000 which is unheard of. It seems to me to be like an artificial number where uh it said oh we we just add exactly 25,000 ending with three zeros. Yeah, these are registered organ donors are real persons. So just the the the fact that all of a sudden there are exactly a thousand uh registered donors is is unheard of. And we we saw this again in the following year when 88,000 uh people were added to the so-called register um or donor pool. So all of this you don't find in other in other countries. With other research you you saw that um that these numbers are more manufactured. There were no no real organ donors but the numbers were following a mathematical equation. Yeah. Quadratic equation. I remember reading that paper like a perfect quadratic equation. Yeah. So, and then with this discrepancy between um these large tungsten numbers and the the lack of organ donors um then the question is where where do those organs come from and uh this is where the witnesses so I I talked with uh Fongong practitioners who said they were detained for two years and they were bled for 10 times. David Metas interviewed a a prisoner who was not a far gong practitioner. He said he was not blood tested, but he saw that far gong practitioners are blood tested. So uh if you hear one witness talking uh one far gong practitioner saying he was uh subject to forced medical exams while in detention while being subject to torture which itself is already implausible. If there's one Fong practitioner saying he was medically examined you can say it's an anecdote. But if there are hundreds and thousands of funong practitioners over 20 years who keep repeating this and similar experiences who who said that I was threatened the the policeman said if I don't follow this they will take my organs. If you hear this many uh witness reports then it the anecdote is not an anecdote anymore. It becomes an evidence. So if you take all of this together, then you have an overwhelming uh set of circumstantial evidence, you know, each each piece itself might not be that strong, but if you put everything together, then then you can say there's enough evidence to say something is is wrong here. So you know obviously the Chinese communist regime has been you know accused multiple times of these practices. How have they responded? Well in in one case for with SJun uh they didn't respond at all when the claim was made. They were silent for five weeks and then all of a sudden they say oh now a delegation can is is being invited and of course a delegation after uh five weeks did not find anything. Yeah. So this is typical if you have scheduled inspections for sure you will not find anything. What China is not doing is it is not allowing um unscheduled investigation or inspections. uh it is um basically denying that this is happening. If you want you can compare it with the uh 1989 student massacre on tin men square. The Chinese government says it didn't happen although there's footage but it didn't happen. And same with the force organ harvesting from um fallong prisoners of conscience is also denied that this is not happening. Why is it the fall & gong that were particularly targeted or are? Well, for for once, it is um a large group that is detained. So, you have all of a sudden access to a very large pool of organ donors. Not organ donors, but sources, organ sources. That that's one aspect. But you can also argue that other groups, other prisoners of conscience could also be targeted. So those are not typically targeted. Uh it is mainly fallong and um if you want to look into the reason then you have to look into 1999 when a persecution of fallong started and um the the Chinese government overnight basically declared fallong as a state enemy. But it was not the fault of uh Fongong because nothing has changed in the in their practice. But it was just the the the aspect of for example being truthful which imposed a threat a perceived threat to the Chinese government. So uh at that point the former head of state Jung Zamin he overnight he just single-handedly said this group is now banned and basically has no rights. Now the experience with the uh student massacre showed the Chinese government that it cannot just crack down on a group uh with high intensity because then the the international community will respond to it. So they had to come up with a different approach. Um so they they wanted to destroy this group uh Fongong but in a way that it is not raising international attention. So over time basically the executions were shifted from the courtroom to the operation room. organ harvesting uh turned the the previous um persecution form of torturing or torturing to death into a profitable business. The organs from Fangong practitioners could be sold for transplants. So there was a financial aspect that uh that was used by the Chinese government. They want to eradicate this group. they want to destroy and what what what better way could there be than than uh using fungang practitioners as organ source. You know I I was talking with Ethan Gutman perhaps half a year ago. He's one of the researchers who did a lot of really valuable work in basically developing this set of evidence and so forth. In past years, as the Chinese regime ramped up the the basically the genocide of the weager people, he's saying that this has become a significant group in recent years. It struck me as something where like if you don't deal with something over years, it it doesn't stop. It just will get transferred to another group that's targeted for eradication. Yeah, this is a very typical phenomenon. If you violate ethical standards and you get away with it, then you get the appetite to go to the to the next level to go to the next profitable area. For example, if you for the the wigger group, because Muslims, they don't eat certain food. So you find um people from the Middle East who are specifically looking for Muslim organ donors to to get the the type of organs that they prefer. The China followed this market to open the wigger people to serve this group of transplantists who are looking for specific organs. But um we cannot forget that this is um relative uh speaking smaller group whereas um the fongong practitioners estimated to have 70 to 100 million people in 1999. So it's it's a v extremely large group and um because it is persecuted in the whole country you you have a pool of organ donors that can still serve the the transplant hospitals in in the different regions. So we we cannot shift our attention to just one group while the other group that has been subject to forced organ harvesting for 20 years is being kind of sidelined. This is a very dangerous move. You do you do you feel that's happening somehow? you find in uh certain organizations. For example, the World Medical Association came up with a with a statement resolution where it acknowledges the genocide of wiger people. However, so farong who is subject to this destruction over 20 years has not been uh recognized as a victim to genocide. Yeah, I followed this very closely and we we think there's a an imbalance. One of the things I wrote about years ago was sort of inability of people to just accept that human beings do such terrible things. You know, I was citing Yan Karsski who, you know, broke into uh concentration camps in Poland. Polish nobleman masqueraded as a Ukrainian guard, you know, saw what was happening, got out, went to England, went to the west, to the US, tried to tell people. People wouldn't listen. Even the attorney general of the US said, I think famously, it's not that I thought he was lying, it was that I was unable to believe him. That was, I believe, the official line or something close to that. So how much does this figure into, you know, the current state where essentially the Chinese Communist Party has been largely held unaccountable to this in almost any way with a few exceptions. Yeah, I believe that um there are several factors that come into play. One is that the crime is just too unbelievable to it's beyond what we can fathom. But at the same time um it is probably also an effect of the effort of the Chinese government to cover it up. So you you can imagine forced organ harveing the killing of people for the organs. This is a serious crime. It's probably the most outrageous violation of human rights that one can imagine. Not only you're you're killing people but you are also using their organs to make profit. So you can imagine that if this would surface if this would be reported in the mainstream media, China would have a hard time to stop an international outcry. So, of course, China tries everything to stop uh to stop this issue, to use bribery, to use um other influence, to stop newspapers um from reporting about this issue. Specifically on this topic of force over housing, we have an issue of um self censorship of western media and this we we need to look into this because uh the the the crime is just too big to be censored. It's striking to me that uh for example the transplantation society which is the premier global organization focused on organ transplantation has either not taken a position or you know essentially taken a position that mirrors that of the Chinese Communist Party in this. I mean I guess the question is one is how much has that hurt your advocacy efforts and two what's going on with that? Yeah, this this is um discrepancy that I followed for some time. On the one side, um the transplantation society says they are in a professional society and uh they don't have the resources to investigate in China. On the other side, the transportation society also makes statements that uh China's on the right way. So on one side you you say that you cannot investigate this topic and on the other side you you uh produce statements that uh China is developing in the right way. There are several uh reports, investigate investigations that are admittedly like hundreds of pages long, but I don't know if if the transplantation society or the leadership in the transplantation society has really studied those reports and looked into it. Well, for example, the China Tribunal, which comes to mind, I mean, one of I think the most comprehensive body of evidence, right? I believe you testified there. briefly tell me what was that what were the conclusions and yes why is the transplantation society unaware of the findings? So the the China tribunal took I think about a year to review all the different reports. They listened to 50 experts on in two hearings. So it was a very um objective, independent and thorough review of the evidence and they came up with the conclusion that forced organ harvesting takes place in China and that the main uh victim group are fallong practitioners. There was a very clear conclusion. It is striking to me that um other medical organizations have not taken this into consideration and said well maybe we need to look into this because again this is one of the biggest violation of medical ethics and of the medical practice I believe in history. So you you cannot go just to back to business as usual and continue exchange, scientific exchange and exchange with personal with doctors uh in with uh with China. There should be some pause to to review the the the evidence. One thing that strikes me I just I always remember back to um where Dr. Jakob Levie, I think, who at the time was the head of the Israeli Transplant Association. He had a patient that would told him, "I'm going to China to get an organ." He went, he got it quickly. And Levie recognized there was no way this could be ethical. And actually advocated very quickly for laws to be passed in Israel where the state health system wouldn't pay for such transplants, basically discouraging people from doing it. Right. You know, maybe you can tell me has there been significant response from any country other than I mean Israel is the one that I'm that comes to mind right now, but I'm not aware of a lot of examples. There has been some acknowledgement and response. Um the US Congress has passed several resolutions on this topic acknowledging the forced organ harvesting the European Parliament as well. But um those are more nonbinding uh steps. This is more like a statement, an acknowledgement but without taking really uh a responsibility to stop to stop this uh abuse to stop this transparent abuse. It is not um strong enough to really send a signal to China and say we are we are serious on this topic. Stop it. We know it it is happening. it doesn't fit into the international uh community. And we we observed over time that and this is not only happening in in in governments but also in in uh organizations where the information that we provided on this topic uh is kind of blocked at a certain level and this is I would think that is occurs at the leadership level. So the the the members of an organization they are much more open to the information and willing to take steps. For example, we approached once the American Medical Association. We were working together with the medical society of Washington DC and we submitted a resolution and uh the leadership of the American Medical Association was more hesitant. But then at one point the house of delegates which are more on the level of the members they were bringing up this question and say we want clarity. Those are the doctors that uh that really want to know what is going on. The members on the floor, they were really lo looking into answers. They wanted answers. So that's a very typical phenomenon. The block is happening at the leadership level and I assume that this is also a reflection of the pressure and the influence that from comes from the Chinese government. It can it can happen very quickly where the Chinese government says if do you want to come to our country for certain conferences then don't bring it up. Do you want to uh be ostracized from our conferences then don't bring it up. This can happen very quickly. I'm going to deviate a little bit here, but I can't help but think this kind of mirrors some of this catastrophic response that frankly the world had to the co to co um um you know that it's almost like what you what you're describing you know kind of set the stage for what we saw happen at a much larger scale affecting a much larger group of people essentially almost, you know, all all of humanity to some extent. It's a it's a chilling thought. I don't know if you've thought about this at all, but Oh, yes. Yes. Um it is interesting if you if you have somebody who's uh violating ethical standards, just basic standards, uh and you don't react to it. If you think about it, if the Chinese government is willing to kill people, not only a few, but on an industrial level, hundreds of thousands, most likely more than million people over the past 20 years, you think of what mindset is that? And if they do this to their own people, what do you think would the Chinese government do to foreigners? So, this is a situation we didn't react to it in time. probably because we we thought uh oh this China is so far away why should we care you know why should we care and a few years later you are hit by a pandemic that is spread from China so I I can't help thinking about this that you know basically we as a society allowed for or turned a blind eye to for decades what you describe as the grossest violation of methical medical ethics in history. And you know, over the last few years, we found ourselves in a situation where there are rampant medical ethics violations. I can't help but wonder if our turning a blind eye didn't somehow influence this current situation where, you know, trust in the medical system has been lost to such a huge number of people. There's an interesting aspect to it. by being a bystander allowing China to to commit this forced organ harvesting. it is um that um in the west I think some of our uh due diligence in in ethics has deteriorated a little bit and that that is a danger but I would actually uh say that is also the intention from the Chinese government to to influence the western society by you know making forced organ harvesting like a staple in the in transplant field. So it's we are risking that our ethical standards are decaying and so all of a sudden we are facing now this situation with the pandemic that really uh caught us by surprise where decades and centuries of scientific working have been cast out. Yeah. For example, if you have a vaccine, the typical form is that you have to test a vaccine for 10 years. But to make sure that this that there are no side effects, this has been uh not appreciated. So I wonder if you give a vaccine that you tested half a year, how can you say with uh certainty that if you give it to children that it doesn't have effects in 10 20 years maybe causing cancer and other problems. We don't know. So there's a decay in in our uh due diligence to enforce um scientific procedures and uh it it is based on on um um appreciation of ethics. Ethics is a good gives you a good guideline to apply scientific methods. This is chilling. I mean, this you're you're basically telling me that this is actually part of the CCP's game here is to undermine our whole ethical system and which can lead to results like we're seeing here. I you know I'm in the middle of this and frankly I hadn't thought of it that way. Okay. Until this moment. Yeah. I I had many years to think about why the Chinese government is doing this and uh I think to summarize it, you you can come up with three reasons. One is uh of um of course to um to be become a leader in the transplant field. Why is it so important? Because if you're a leader in a transplant field, if you if you are the most advanced in the transplant research because you have the the numbers to produce and you can do research, then you are in the position that you can set standards and that that's what the one aspect that the CCP is pursuing to become a leader so that it can send set standards for the transplant field. Think about it today. We would not think that um we could take organs from um prisoners. You know, it's unfathomable. The WMA, the World Medical Association has condemned this. But think of that uh if uh the Chinese transplant market is so big that it can set the standard, it could even say uh no it is it is okay if you take organs from prisoners. Yeah. So this is something that the Chinese government pursues. They they want to become a leader in the field so that they can set the rules. Another aspect is that they there's a side in a way a side effect that by uh doing um by performing force organ harvesting they know they undermine the western concepts of ethics and human rights. And they know that they will provoke the west. This is predictable. And they do this because they they want to create this kind kind of chaos in the scientific field in the transplant field. So now you you you have discussions where some doctors uh may say you cannot do that but others say why not. Yeah. So all of a sudden we we are having a discussion that we didn't have like years ago. And um if you think of the the the Chinese government is taking advantage of this this chaos. Yeah. Think of like a fish can only survive in water and the Chinese Communist Party they need chaos to in the world to be dominant. So this is an this is an aspect to it. A third uh reason why I believe for open harvesting in China takes place and has reached these dimensions is the in intention to destroy fallong. You must have some really low days when you're faced with all these realities. I mean, I can see you're you're you know, trying to keep a light heart through all this, but this is this is very tough. Tell me like what you see hope here. What's the situation? Probably the most discouraging for me was when I had um doctors in the in the west in the free world who are taking the side of the Chinese government were trivializing forced organ harvesting. There there was a case where a doctor uh uh within 24 hours organized to uh to to have two liver donor livers and we would say this is like impossible within 24 hours to to find two matching livers. But then the the doctor the western doctors here in the US he said why not it's possible you know that by coincidence the same two people uh the two people with matching organs disease and organs were available. Yeah. So, so this is um discouraging because in a in a proverb you can say if you hear um hoof beatat then uh the first thing that came to your mind is those must be horses not zebras. Yeah, this is a very common uh phrase in the in the medical diagnostic. Uh it is a reminder that you you think of what is most likely and it is not most likely that by coincidence two people passed away donating two matching organs. It's probably one of the most painful moments if you if you see this. But at the same time, the most encouraging and maybe joyful moments were when you talk to other doctors, colleagues, and they understand it and they support you. I one of them he he said he he read my book and he couldn't stop reading it. He he was reading the book until 3:00 or 4:00 a.m. through the night because he couldn't put it out of his hands and he was very supportive. So th those moments that those moments are really energizing and give the motivation to continue. I'm guess you might be talking about the book State Organs which you edited wrote a chapter of. Um ve very valuable book to me I think back from back in 2012 or something around that time. Um I'd recommend it to our to our viewers. You know you've written quite a number of papers. You've written a couple of books on this. What would you say is the most important thing you've contributed? Yeah, I think that um there was one article that was probably most consequential in putting this whole picture together and that was the article cog genocide fongong in China. It was the first time that I understood that forced organ harvesting is not an isolated uh violation of medical ethics, but it had a a function, a purpose, and the purpose was to uh to destroy a certain group. In this case, it was a fun practitioners because um there's no better way to silence a group of people. At the beginning um be when I was thinking about this topic about you know you see the student massacow that was really um obvious to the world in 1989 and the persecution of fallong that led to the forced organ harvesting which is not perceived. I I thought what what is the difference here and then something came up which I had actually comes from my from medical school and this is when we learned about flies and the compound of the fly has a certain characteristic. It doesn't have a clear picture but it it can detect motion. That's what it's good for. That's why it's difficult to catch a fly. It catches motion if you move fast. It's very difficult to catch a fly. But if you move slowly, you don't see it or the the fly doesn't see the hand coming towards the fly. So if you move slow enough, you can commit a crime that nobody is noticing. So I realized that uh the Chinese government learned from the student massacre and we cannot they cannot do it in high intensity intensity. They need to proceed in a slower motion and then you have a cold genocide and that is more devastating I would say than than other forms of persecution because it it can happen slowly over over years or 20 years without actually being noticed because it is too slow to to trigger international reaction. So that that was that um really opened my eyes that China is operating on the in a way that is very planned. And if you think of a slowmoving destruction and then expand it to other areas in the society, then you see that China is is it is not seeking confrontation but it is slowly infiltrating our society and diluting it with the influence where where say at universities where you cannot have uh you know forums that are crit critical of China, you cannot have this at your at your university. And all of a sudden, the university find itself in a situation where it it is driven to self censorship because it doesn't want to lose the thousand students from China. So this is like a slowm moving um influence that is taking infiltrating everywhere in in the society. you you find this pattern of uh uh of the core genocide actually in in many areas in the economy, business, education. Fascinating. Of course, we've covered this issue of Chinese Communist Party infiltration in the US and in the West and its of motives. We have this new film, The Final War, which just premiered that talks about a lot of these things and how there's been this, you know, slow hundred-year plan to subvert America. I've never thought of it in the context of, you know, this cold genocide they describe, which, you know, I remember reading that paper, very, very powerful piece. In the face of all this, right, what can the typical person do? This transplant industry is a combination or is a reflection of incentives and doctors earn money from those transplantations. That's their incentive and uh even western media might receive incentives by not reporting about this issue. But then what what is the incentive of the uh Chinese government? It's not about money. The the incentive is to silence fongong so that they cannot convey their practice and their message which is based on three principles. Truthfulness, compassion, forbearance. These are good good values. You know the world would benefit from those principles today. But the Chinese government, the Chinese Communist Party doesn't want the people to know. So if you want to defeat this purpose of force organ harvesting, you have to break the silence. So if if if uh the the people around us would learn more about fallong, would learn about the persecution, would would talk about it, would bring it to the social media, etc. the purpose the purpose of silencing this group will be defeated. One of the things that just strikes me as you're talking here is that you know there's this of course the first principle that practitioners follow is the truth and that the way that's manifested is in all sorts of different ways which the communist party really doesn't like. Like for example basically you know exposing communism for what is exposing the crimes of the party. That's one one area. Another one is you know whistleblowing around you know co things. That was a that was a big one. A lot of people were were you know persecuted horribly for doing that. You know this this is this is just a couple of examples. If medicine is not able to stop forced organ harvesting then what will happen with the medical profession. The concept of uh medicine, the goal of medicine is to to help a patient, to save a patient. But if someone else is being killed to provide cure to others, then medicine is at a uh at a crossroads. So I believe that every medical doctor who is taking his or her profession serious need to look into this. This is not just a topic that should be addressed by transplant surgeons but by every medical doctor. Well, Dr. Torstston Trey, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you. Thank you all for joining Dr. Torstston Trey and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Yana Kell.