Is Xi Jinping’s Grip on Power in China Slipping? | Heng He

A recently leaked directive details the Chinese Communist Party's strategy to respond to Trump's tariffs. The purpose of this internal directive is tell the whole party system that it's time to end the dominant of the United States. In Chinese they call which is crisis and opportunity. So any crisis will be considered opportunity. How is the CCP trying to leverage this moment? Will this be the end of China as the quote unquote factory of the world? Those businesses based on the exports are all closing now. And what's behind the purges in the military? The apparent removal of two Xiinping loyalists and recent changes in top CCP leadership. Why did two top Chinese Communist Party officials recently swap positions? Joining me today is longtime China analyst Hung Ha. This swap is very strange because in Chinese CCP's history, it never happened. Either you you purged or you retired. This is American Thought Leaders and I'm Yana Kellik. Such a pleasure to have you on American Thought Leaders. Thank you for having me. The Chinese Communist Party recently issued a secret internal directive in response to these broad tariffs that the US administration has put on China and of course other countries but with China as a focus. So what was the most important thing that was leaked? I think the strategy is uh the purpose of this internal directive is tell the whole party system that it's time to end the dominant of the United States since World War II on three fields economic, military and international political. So this is huge because you know I have never heard they openly talk about this. Of course, this is internal, but even internal, you know, since the end of the cultural revolution, they never really mention that. So, this is huge. But we've known that the Chinese Communist Party is trying to subvert the US to take the dominant position, you know, I think supposedly by 2050, right? That was the original timeline. But so is it is it really that significant that that they're putting it in an internal directive like this? Just explain to me why that what what makes this particular directive different. For 40 years, the Chinese Communist Party focused on the economy reform and they tried to police the United States, try to, you know, get the chance to take advantage of this openness uh to the world. But now it seems they think it's time they have enough strong enough to take over. And uh I think this is uh the the totally openly admit their purpose their um their goals totally changed from the following the uh the world economy development to take over. I mean, that's that's kind of astonishing because we hear all sorts of things about how the Chinese economy has huge problems. We hear things about how Xiinping has lost a lot of power. I'm going to get you to talk about all these things in a moment. So, how is it that they're saying, "Well, this is our chance to come out and actually, you know, officially, you know, take over, take that top position in the world." uh in Chinese this is uh they call wiji is crisis and opportunity. Mhm. So any crisis will be considered opportunity. Uh at this time I think they try to calm down the internal uh uneasy from the you know tariff war. So I think this is important and uh every time when they meet some crisis they need uh something to encourage the system you know kind of rally everyone behind. That's what you mean. Yeah cuz you know um people will think at the time when China's economy is is bad right situation is really bad there and they need something to blame others. So this is a good chance to blame United States. So let's go through a couple of things I pulled out from these notes that were leaked from, you know, looking over the the document. I mean, one of the things in here has to do with uh working with the United Front and the uh Ministry of Foreign Affairs working together to influence um I I guess the European countries create a kind of united front against the United States. Can you explain that to me a little bit and maybe even just start by reminding us what the United Front is? United Front is CCP's three major weapon to take over the power in China. Uh Moson said there's a three weapons that made the Chinese revolution successful and the military uh and United Front uh and uh the parties organization. Mhm. So the United Front is make friends. They must united all the power even sometimes they considered as enemy but at this moment become friends and all the possible friends together to fulfill CCP's purpose. That's the United Front. They identify some countries in there. I think the UK, Germany, France. Why are they thinking about these countries? Um at this moment they will consider uh European countries will be their friends against the United States. So the United front worker will uh united those European countries that also targeted by the US as a you know tariff uh target. So that's the United Front will uh make friends of the European countries against the United States. Well, it's interesting because I I believe the US administration officials have talked about the need to kind of bring the various European nations under uh the US banner. So like almost like this is a a choice that people will have to make. It's like this is the it seems to be the US strategy as well. So the fact is uh nobody can no single country can replace the consumer market uh as the United States European country none of them. So China cannot take this position because China economy is not based on the consumer oriented but you know export oriented and that way nobody can replace the United States. How can you unite the other countries? Because you know every country consider their policy based on their own interest. Um something else that is mentioned in here is the implementation of a rationing system. Like why why would that be something they would be implementing now at a time when they're claiming supremacy? I don't understand this. Uh they actually they know exactly why they get rich. uh it's openness to the west but now they consider if the worst scenario happens then they must go back to the cultural revolution even before cultural revolution uh at the time China was so totally isolated so the material the consumer product will be very rare so they have to make uh preparation for the you know um a distribution totally different system. It's not market but planned economy fully planned economy that means China prepare you know CCP is preparing for the closed door totally closed door that's the worst scenario so you know you talked a little bit about the United Front as being one of the three uh elements that Maadong outlined right the military um and also the the third one is the party organization Yes. So I noticed that recently the heads of the United Front and the party organization were swapped. Yeah. This swap is very strange because in Chinese CCP's history never happened. Uh you either you you were purged or you retired and some replacement but two important department inside the party. You know CCP has only four departments at the top. four departments those are two and this swap you know changing um it it doesn't make sense but if we consider CCP now has a big power strug struggle on top that could be explained because you know organization department is very important it decide who seized power and who put his people on right position and United France Even though it's very important but it's only deal with outside and it's not um considered as the most important element in the power struggle internal power struggle. So that's why I think the important person must put in the organization department and the less important person put in the United Front because anybody can United Front is a well um organized u effort for many many years even you change the head of the department the the work was will still be done. So I think somebody want to uh make sure uh the other power because you know for the past maybe uh 10 more than 10 years Shiin Ping is in charge right but somebody now want to take over this position and probably you know put some other people on those positions. I want to talk a little bit about this power struggle because you know on the surface Xiinping you know sort of is the paramount leader in charge of everything. Um in reality I've been following your analysis you're saying that his power has been actually reduced quite a bit now but but before we go there explain to me how this works. This is a very opaque system that a lot of people just don't understand. How how what are the power centers in the communist party? is the role of the pilot bureau standing committee and then the whole pilot bureau um and and so and just explain to me how that power works maybe even with if you have some analogy in the west um yeah usually the the most powerful is the standing committee of the bureau uh uh polit bureau uh that's uh usually nine person or sometimes seven persons u in charge of everything so only standing committee make the decision And sometimes that's some retired top leaders also can make the decision but it it needs opportunity. That's why when Dunia Ping was in power he tried to get the old retired top leaders um also control the the whole system. So he set up a uh advisor committee. M and once they have the standing committee expand the meeting he can include those you know old guys uh uh like advisory board to join the meeting not only that they can vote that's one thing but uh now the advisor board was not exist anymore and shining when he took over He made sure that polit the the standing committee is all his his people. So that's his uh third term. It's he made sure it's everybody is his his people. Uh that means you have to have somebody you know retired people uh old leaders if they still alive they have to have somebody inside the party and at the top to help them get the chance to vote you know make the decision. some crisis happens maybe at that that time they have the chance to you know to influence the to influence the the final results. So I sometimes describe uh how the CCP functions as a kind of a mafia organization. Yes. Right. Where there's and so now Xiinping has is the head dawn who's consolidated all his power. I'm wondering if you could just comment on that for me. Right. Um if you consider uh sting's death when starring lost conscious they have to include a lots of important people even at the time they are not necessarily uh really in power to discuss how to solve the situation how to deal with it. Um moan times also the same. So I think what happened is uh um last year during the uh the third uh plannary session of the party central committee during that time something happened very likely uh he got stroke and at that time so that's Xigin Ping we're talking about there were rumors that he's gotten strokes and one in particular we're talking about July of 2024 right July uh that's the only time I can consider somebody getting involved. You know the old leaders uh those are not in the power circle currently but get involved but also with the help with those people still in the standing committee. So they made decision strip power from some certain field most likely from the military first uh and then he recovered a little bit uh but decisions made so that's like if you in the um mafia's family and once somebody the head the dong uh for some Louis lost the power for several days and then then the different family head made the decision. You have to follow cuz you know even the underground society they have rules. People will uh see if you keep your pro promise or follow the decision. I think that's what happened also in chi Chinese communist party the same thing. And once he lost part of the power, it's very difficult to regain it. Mhm. Because it's a decision. Maybe most likely it's written decision. Uh I think that's the possibility. Uh I talked about the standing committee is all his people. But once somebody in a position because this um assigned to different jobs and once somebody uh in some special position then his interest connect more to his position than to Shiin Ping. M for example Mozong as the party leader he never get the chance to totally take over Zun's position because Zuna is the prime minister prime minister in China's system party leader is take care of the revolution ideology and prime minister is taking care of the uh you know economy that's conflict Once you have this setting and different people in the head and they will conflict each other no matter how good body they were before and I'm pretty sure in China currently the same situation because shiin ping's uh the purpose is go back to the mo ideology but Lishan as a prime minister he has to make sure the economy is not collapsed totally collapsed. So it's conflict once you in this position even you are the friends or follower of shiin ping but you have your own interest. So at the time when the crisis happens somebody inside helped to bring the outside you know the former leaders into this circle to make the decision. I think that's the case. Let me see if I've got this straight. I'm going to try to bring together. Let's see. I understood a a bunch of different threads here. Okay, we have Xiinping having a stroke. You believe those are rumors. It's not confirmed by the government, but we believe this is what happened. Um, at that moment, other people looking for power as everybody is kind of swoop in, take a bit some of that control, but he doesn't lose power entirely. Um, at the same time, we have this whole situation where China's economy is going through a crisis, right? the the whole um real estate sector is is collapsing. Um and there's you know foreign direct investment is shutting down which is a big part and and probably she's being blamed for that because he's assumed a lot of power. So this is all happening concurrently right is this is this is the picture you're painting. So on the other hand, this prime the prime minister now is looking and saying, "Hey, uh, this isn't right because ultimately if we can't keep the economy going, we're going to lose the support of the people because that's kind of the deal, I guess." Yes. But if is that does that sound right? This is what I'm hearing here. Yeah. Yes. That's why we can see uh the conflict policy. Mhm. You know from our side we can see uh recently that the policy is really conflict uh because the uh the prime minister is trying to get the investment back and try to persuade the the whole world that we are still uh China is still doing the uh reform and openness. But on the other side they they create some laws and try to um you know scare the foreign investors. So it's conflict. The purpose of Chinese government and their policy is to keep communist party in power not for the people um you know life easier. It's not that way. So the every movement made sure the party is in power, CCP is in power and all the conflict came from this part. Mhm. So I know of course you're not an economist but if you can kind of remind us what are the elements of the Chinese economy here and why is it in so much trouble? Yeah. uh they call the um the inf infrastruct in investments in the infrastructure and uh consumer and another one is export. So the first just the investment infrastructure you're talking about these big projects kind of building lots of huge things uh grow the GDP but they are not necessarily used uh afterwards right um including the the train you know the highspeed train the whole nation this is longest in the world and uh that in this is a very most important uh the econ economic driving force and the consumer part is never a big important part in uh even during the best time of the reform. uh they they don't really care and export is the major one but why so that's the third piece but why why is China not growing its consumer uh part of the economy I think the the the system designed this way you know when deniaing to started the reform in 1980s the early 80s um the purpose is learn from the Asia other countries uh he said that so anybody follow United States get rich and uh so it's designed as the manufacturer of the world so they manufacture for the world not for China to what do you mean by follow the United States like not copy them because no no no no you you you trade with the United States okay yeah you trade but you your major trade partner is United States And then they made China the the world of the the basically the manufacturing hub of the world I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so manufacturer they call the uh the factory of the world. So it's designed this way. So all the you know the infrastructure the transportation everything is designed for export not for the Chinese consumers. Yeah. But what but what about all these buildings that they build, all these apartments for investment and so forth? I mean, presumably someone's supposed to live there one day, right? No. No. This is also designed designed to uh to to keep the uh government power cuz you know all the buildings. Um why the government is so fascinated about the buildings? because they sell the land cuz this is will never happen in other country because land is private but in China the CCP took over China and took over the land. So the ownership is the government in China. So they sold the land to the developer and developer build and then sell to the you know the end user. The China's housing is very expensive because the money half of the money go to the government. So government can get rich. So all designed this way. It's that's why we have so many ghost cities in China. They didn't really think somebody will live in there. They just sell the land and develop buildings. That's it. That's that that's astonishing. I don't think it's I thought it would be very hard for people to believe that like that. Why so many coastal cities? They know that no people will live there like Shan is the the plan shining plan to make it the substitute of Beijing capital at at least partially. So the whole city was built from the ground and now nobody lived there. Mhm. It's so many years. But so he knew nobody would live there already. Uh in China, the decision maker is not based on the research study or the uh the real needs, the market need or something like It's it's kind of still keep a very big portion of the planned economy and the plann economy economy is is based on the leaders idea and nobody knows where the idea come from. Uh but you know that's the decision. Well, this is fascinating because the other part is you know clearly they liberalized some of the economy, right? Yeah. But you're you're kind of suggesting based on this directive that we discussed at the beginning of the interview that they're actually going back to more planned. Can you explain that to me? Like what did they liberalize and is it really are they really going back to more plan now? Uh yes. uh because um during the uh early stage of the uh reform they have to withdraw parties power from the economy part and less party in interfere with the economy and that's why you know it developed real fast especially the private section you know private section developed for 20 years and become bigger and bigger even though in China it's not very normal they still have connections with the uh government power otherwise you cannot get rich everybody knows that but the private section still has its interest and when they get power and power more and more powerful and they want more political voice so that's uh that's one reason another reason is that reform is only partial reform they never get serious uh because China's reform is only in the economy never in the political system while the political system is a planned you know socialism planned economy while the market economy is bas basically it's a private section so it has a conflict uh in the world I don't think any country successful combine them together and China is the only one So you can see the socialism countries all failed economy. Uh but China is the only exception. Now Vietnam try to follow China's rule. Uh but this if you don't go to the political reform then the system is conflict with the economy economy. That's what happened in China. And uh in uh early 2010 uh the people the the leaders some of leaders inside the chi uh Chinese communist party realized that uh reform is going to to to the end it won't be have the power to continue because it conflict with the system they have to find the solution and I think the first one who tried that one is inqing. Mhm. Cuz um so that was I you're talking about a leader who was you know being groomed to be the head of the CCP tried to coup against Xigin Ping but ultimately got deposed. I'm just kind of reminding our our audiences about this guy. Yes. Uh this guy was uh uh used to be uh minister of commerce uh and then he was uh um demoted to Chongqing as the leader head of the Chongqing city and then he started the called sing revolutionary song and get rid of the gangster in the economic field. So uh this one is like uh um go back ideologically go back to moong time and economically try to limit the private sections power. Mhm. Um he was very popular at the time and everybody afraid that he will become the leader of the chi China but you know for some reason he he got lost the power you know in the power structure uh struggle he lost power and shining becomes the real leader he's the challenge challenge one and but shiin ping has the same background as bos they all belong to the you know princ you know the the princ Slings is the second generation of the revolution leadersh. Mhm. Uh their fathers are you know following mad revolution. So they raised during the cultural revolution and they basically they they are familiar with the the time their uh golden time was before cultural revolution. Mhm. They're good in time and before Den of course. Yeah. Uh of course before Den so basically follow Bilai's idea which is ironic because Bojili was contending for his position basically. Yeah. But their ideologies are the same. Power struggle doesn't mean ideology struggle. It's it's kind of different. Got it. Yeah. I took over the power. I can still go this way. So this is the um what happened during that time. uh and then since the shiin ping time we can see very clearly is expand the state business you know state power and reduce the p private sections power you know reduce the power of the market market economy for last 10 years it's very clear uh so I think uh that's the way they try to solve the conflict with the system, you know, conflict between the system and the uh economy. They try to solve this and ways go back to Mozai. You know, I'm just reminded again in this secret directive, one of the issues was returning the capital outflows, right? So this maybe talk explain that to me a little bit because it's as I understand it it's like punishable by death to take your assets overseas even if you're high level right is that is that right es especially high level it's only um means the the the party leaders uh in the media middle or high rank uh they should uh should withdraw their assets back to China but this is the the way to to try to make sure the party leaders at at any rank won't challenge or not not necessarily Shiin Ping won't change challenge parties power and uh if the uh trade war or the tariff war or even the hot war uh started and make sure nobody become the traitor. Yes. Yeah. I see. Yeah. That's the purpose. Well, why are so many assets overseas? Cuz safe. Because everybody knows in China the private property is not guaranteed by anything. They never give up the ideology of the communist. That means anytime they can seize your assets, seize your property. So to for safety purposes they put them in free countries basically. Yeah. Yeah. So even though the most party leaders uh at any rank they will say um communist socialism is better than the capitalism but they still trust capitalism so they put money and you know buying but wasn't that already like treason to do that? Uh no at the time because everybody doing that now they make sure uh there will be if you know if if the trade war get worse you have to withdraw the assets. Uh one purpose is hit United States because you have so many properties assets and you know even even cash go back to China. So you will lose some money, right? United States. Another purpose is to make the party loyal to the CCP, you know, the the the members of the party loyal to the CCP. Mhm. Because during the war, if you have assets in the United States, then you will consider your assets interest is based on the successful of the United States, not China. So we talked about these three weapons uh uh the United Front, the staffing organization department and of course the military being the third one. We haven't talked about the military yet. There's been huge changes. I mean the number two guy in the PLA has just been disappeared and I think demoted or removed disappeared. What is the significance of that? No, nothing about nothing says he's demoted or um purged or arrested. Uh it's he's just disappeared. Mhm. And he is the the vice chairman of the central military commission. Uh totally three chairmans, one chairman, two vice chairman and chairman is Xinping. Mhm. His name is still the chairman and another two one is disappeared. Hi Dong, right? Huong. Yeah. Huong. Huong is disappeared and before him another is the member of the central military commission was demoted and Ma and Hong came out from the same u military unit. M so they are same but they belong to Xiinping's faction because you know Xigin Ping uh promoted many uh military generals u but for the first term basically he tried to get rid of the members belongs to the previous leaders. his second term, he tried to uh put more his people in the military. And this term, the third term, basically most of the the military generals belongs to his faction, all his people. And he promoted them especially. Mha is the previous one previous one got purged and me is in the military staff department organizing department that means he puts all shiin ping's people in different position inside the military and he was purged it's very strange he definitely he loyal to only otherwise shining won't put him in the such important position but he was ped and now we don't so they all belong to the same and also from Fuian sim faction is from Fuian and partially sanghai that's his faction and those military people also from there I think it's the uh the the difference start with the last year July last year. Uh it's the third p plary the third plary session of the communist party central committee. Um before shiin ping purge other people but after that looks like some somebody else is purging uh shiin ping's faction's people. So it's uh we see the purging we see the purging of the military uh high rank leaders but it's to a little bit different before and after. So you know we have you know this rapidly growing military. I mean this is when we I've been reading a bunch of intelligence reports about this. I hadn't fully realized how quickly they've been growing. How many new ships are being built? um all this, you know, there's all this activity kind of grayzone activity that's happening all out in the Philippines and so forth. On one side, that's happening. On the other side, it sounds like you're telling me that Xiinping is losing his people in the military. Yeah, that's very strange. Xiinping never really in charge of the military. He he has no background of military, you know, career. So when he took over the power of course he need to reform the military. So he did reform the military in 2015. Mhm. He tried to totally change the military settings and follow the structure of the United States Army. Yeah. Changed everything. Uh but it's very difficult because Chinese military the CCP military uh I would say CCP military because this is the military belongs to the party not belongs to not belong to the mil uh the state. Yeah that's incredibly a lot of people can't even imagine that it would be like the Republican or the Democratic party having a military. Yeah. Uh it's it's written in the constitution. Uh it's a party's army. It's not a state and they were designed to protect the power of the CCP, not to protect the nation. So it's different. So actually the this army, this military is not designed to fight foreign wars. It's designed to suppress internal rebels or protests. But but even today, no, Shiin tried to change that. M uh CB tried to change that. Uh that's his structure. Uh the the whole military new structure is based on his idea that uh one day or sooner or later uh will fight United States uh through maybe Taiwan or South China Sea fight. So that's his design. Uh the problem starts from here because the expansion military is not problem. Everybody get benefit from it. Everybody gets rich from it because you know more money uh they build more uh know ships, airplanes, uh aircraft and everything. But there's lots of money you can take from it. Everybody get rich. But once you really want to get into war, that's totally different story, right? So, uh when Xiinping tried to um reform the whole army and then he tried to see if he can has the enough power, you know, military power to take over Taiwan and then he suddenly realized the military is not as strong as he expected. And uh the first thing he found out is the rocket unit is not functioning well. There are two sometimes called the rocket force I think. Yeah, rocket force. Rocket force is not functioning uh function as well as he expected. Uh because you know if he wants to invade Taiwan, he need a a very strong nonconventional um power, military power. So rocket force is most important for him. But then he realized this rocket force is not prepared for the war. It's not ready for the war. Uh that's first uh his disappointed with the military and then he found out you know the American air force um think tank published about the rocket force um the detail very detailed the the think tank claim that they get information from the public publications you know uh that's from public domain information I think they claimed right but it's not uh I checked their reference they have everything referenced but the reference part of the reference from their own research paper and the own research paper still doesn't have any source so that means they published first and then quote their own publication that means they try to hide their real source and those real source only can come from CCP the military internal know uh somebody uh very high rank. Mhm. Because you know any low rank um military officials only know their part but this is huge. It's the whole picture. So it has to be somebody leaked the information. That's why uh Shimi got really mad and then we see the purge of the rocket force high rank officials one by one. Uh I think that's two main reasons that's a very big issue in the military and then also the the supply chain military supply chain uh people involved in the supply chain al also got purged because this is the uh very easy part for the corruption and the most corrupted part is this supply chain. I'm looking at this leak directive, secret directive. Um, you know, your analysis here basically is that this is it's almost like the CCP is going for broke, right? Going for broke. But to me, when there's that kind of thinking, that's when the possibility of war becomes very real. Is it through the tariffs? Is America pushing the Chinese now to go to war? I've heard that said. The war only happens in two situations. One is when Chinese military is ready, economy and the military is ready to invade uh Taiwan. Mhm. That's the one possibility. when the the military is ready, I don't think it's in the near future 5 years they they can be ready to fight because they will consider uh the war is not against Taiwan, it's against the United States and even the allies in um Asia, uh Japan, Australia, you know. So I don't think that's they are ready for that. But another way possibility is when the CCP's ruling power is in danger. So they need to switch people's uh uh focus to the outside and they need the war to prove uh their legitimacy of the move. Uh that's the only possibility. But I don't think currently they are ready for that because you know they are still purging the military high rank leaders and if you remember uh the Soviet Red Army before the World War II uh starting purged all the you know military leaders high rank officials and at the beginning of the World War II uh the the invasion of the uh Nazi Germany into Soviet Union. The first months they lost 1 million armed force because nobody knows how to fight cuz you know anybody knows how to fight got purged or killed by starting so now you are purging those military high rank officials how can you make the war you know I I think it's very difficult besides I think if CCP's military is not ready and then that war will um accelerate the collapse of the CCP regime. Why? Cuz you know if you cannot win the war then you lose the uh you know the support of the people and the support of the party itself. So bottom line, what is the impact of this tariff approach that the Trump administration has imposed on China and you know related countries, neighboring countries? Um I think the neighboring countries just visited the three countries um Vietnam, Cambodia and uh uh Malaysia. uh I don't think those people those countries are following China's u path to trade with the United States especially Vietnam and I don't think they can and uh in some field export field and their competition they they're compet compete each other not the help each other right so I don't think um it will help China to you know to get a support from those uh Southeast Asia countries. There's no way. You can see Vena Va made a lots of promise but never really keep the promise to CCP. They they try to keep the promise to United States and they want to zero tariff with the United States not China. So that's the uh China I I think they they try to get zero tariff as the way to fight the United States. I think yesterday they they claim they they they have the zero tariff policy to 45 countries. Yeah. Uh less developed countries, right? Yeah. uh so I think the tariff impact is huge because you know currently the three major drive force for Chinese economy two uh are already failed it's it's a uh consumer and in infrastructure it's totally failed and now they have only one way uh to get the economy forward is the export that's the only way. But the tariff will stop the major part of their export income. And without this money from the United States, their other projects are gone. For example, the belt and you know the the belt and road and the belt and road is based on a belt and road basically you you invest money and most likely you cannot get the investment back because those countries not stable and the economy is not stable, politics are not stable, you know the whole uh environment is not stable. So uh they try to get the money from United States to invest in those belton road and once the money is stopped from United States then the belt road and other like uh uh good brick the bricks yeah the the bricks is also based on China's um economy not other things I don't think those country has ideology or any similarity except want to get some benefit from the trade with China or something. uh so other project will get will failed uh CCP's other project for example like uh uh Panama just uh you know cancelled the belt road contract with China um Italy I think canceled so the belt road will shrink China's influence in the world will shrink because mostly their influence is based on the uh the money to buy uh especially Africa countries but the money come from you know trade with you so this is a huge impact and also inside China there more and more information come out those based those businesses based on the export are all closing now and there were lots of people won't have job and uh you know the whole society will be will be in a mess that's uh I think CCP is very afraid of because you know when people so many people don't have job uh and they cannot create a job so many years they based on the ex export their economy is not built on the consumer not based on you know manufacture something for the people inside China to consume do and you cannot change the whole structure overnight. That's the problem. You know, this has been a an amazing conversation. Uh you as we finish up, let's talk about this. We're talking right almost exactly after this new covid.org org website has appeared right from the White House which has you know I don't know changes the game in a whole bunch of ways very relevant to China and I want to get you to comment on that uh what what you think about this I was so surprised yesterday I saw the website new website it's a game change exactly it's a game change because the United States government never really blame China for pandemic I I think for so many years so many uh governments try to avoid blame China for that and blame CCP for that. The only country did that is Australia and Australia got punished. Trade, you know, it's like a small trade war. Uh they ban a lot of Australia product import into China. And now this is United State government formal, you know, stand. So this is I think this is huge especially not only the CTP didn't prevent the spread of the pandemic but also the cause is manmade cause so this is not a natural disaster this is a man-made disaster and you know I was discussing this uh with people at the very least you know they just we all we know that for years they had really shoddy uh pra shoddy practices at this lab right when which was experimenting on very problematic viruses and so forth. Yeah. At the very least and at the worst well yeah king of function this web page is directly make sure United won't let it go it's not something small we can let it go. uh we still remember that and we need to even the website didn't say that but uh I think the following will be some uh in the lawsuit in remember I mean um there were a number of lawsuits that I I've had people uh on who were launching lawsuits specifically to hold the Chinese regime accountable. I saw also yesterday Jamie Metsel announced model legislation to hold the Chinese Communist Party accountable. So this is very much in line with what you're saying. Yeah, I think this is the whole new effort. U it's I think it's it has something to do with the tariff war. Uh even though it didn't say but you know this put um United States on the high ground. I think at least high ground because you know every country is the victim uh of the pandemic and the lab leaked is one accident I think um or maybe not nobody knows China won't let anybody to do the investigation and the United Nations send the delegates to investigate but with the conflict interest person inside right right so you won't get any truth. But even if you went to China, you won't get any truth. China CCP is very good at in destroy the evidences. But you know uh still the CCP is responsible for cover up because you know when they spread inside China and nobody knows what happened there and everybody is not prepared for pandemic and actually CCP shining already know exactly what happened in Wuhan but they try to hide and that's the reason you know why spread all over the world that's fully their responsibility. So I think the cover up is you know for the accountability the cover up is more important than the origin of the well the cover up and then also the sort of stopping internal transportation but demanding an international transportation. I remember that the international flight right to other countries protested when people wanted to stop them if I recall correctly. So there's all these different dimensions here. Yeah. Yeah. That's what happened. So you you can you can assume that's the intent their intention. Yeah. So um I I think this is very important. Um because you know uh the the whole world like put a pause key for two years. Mhm. And uh nobody is take responsibility. I think this is not fair. Mhm. Well, so last question. Um, some analysts have described this as the most dangerous time since World War II for the world. What do you think? I think it's the most important time since World War II. I wouldn't say it's dangerous. You know, dangerous. Danger is always there. Um, you know, since like a trade war, uh, CCP started trade war without claim the war. Mhm. without declared war. So long time ago, you mean? United States is only uh fight back. It's not the United States started the trade war or any other war. Uh and the tariff war is also the same thing. China has the tariff and the non-tariff barrier. So, United States just uh fight back make it equal you know the the the fair trade. Uh so I think the danger is always always there. Um I think the important thing is United States realize the situation and face the situation. So all the step United States um takes is recognize the all the problems and try to solve it and uh then I think this is re rewrites the the the rules since the World War II because since the World War II especially since 1970s the globalization is the trend but now you find out uh the whole world is hard to um collaborate very difficult because it's totally different system totally different idea even totally different civilization so the conflict prevent the globalization actually but now it's time to realize that and also United States used to have the policy to um to against the Soviet Union to, you know, to uh to connect CCP uh and uh against the Soviet Union. That's what happened in 1970s, early '7s. Yeah. They wanted to use China against the Soviet to leverage it. Yeah. But after the 1990s when the Soviet Union collapsed and uh supposedly the game should have changed. Yeah. But I I don't think the United States made any change. Um and then uh CCP took the advantage of the the globalization especially when they joined the WTO but they abused the WTO abused this globalization. Now the the United States realize this is about the you know the state security about the you know you cannot rely on somebody try to take over and destroy you. So this is I think it's it's the fact you know just being ignored for a long time. Well Hung ho it's such a pleasure to have had you on. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you all for joining Hunga and me on this episode of American Thought Leaders. I'm your host, Yana Kell.