(Ep. 251) From Borrowing to Empowering: Navigating Student Loans with Meredith Jones and Gabe Rooker

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Student Loan Planner podcast. Today, we are going to be introducing two of our newer Student Loan Planner consultants. I've got Meredith Jones on with me and Gabe Rooker. So welcome, you guys. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for bringing us on. Yeah. Well, let's jump right into things. Folks may know Meredith, actually, Meredith Jones. You are in the vet space. You are a veterinarian, actually, right? Yes. Mainly practiced emergency medicine, small animal. Small animal. Nice. And you have an awesome fascination with finance, personal finance, and student loans, I think, naturally started to wind its way into that, right? Yeah. I became a really big money nerd while I was paying off my student debt. Yep. And then I've just been involved in various financial projects over the last several years in the veterinary space. Nice. Okay. Well, we're going to dive into a little bit about your background a little more here in a moment. And then we're going to talk about Gabe as well. And Gabe, you are actually a family name and Student Loan Planner now, right? Because you are Dan Rooker's brother. Yes. Yes. Hopefully, that wasn't too much of imagination for everyone else trying to figure that one out. But yes. Yeah. I hopped on not too long ago, but my brother, he asked me, he said, hey, would you be interested in joining SLP? And I said, I think I said no, about seven or eight months ago. What? You said no? Yeah. I did. I did. And it turned out it was a mistake. So I'm here now. Yeah. So he reached out again, and I said, you know, I've been trying to put this off for too long. It's time I hop on and start putting it to work. So I have a little bit, you know, contrary to Meredith, a little bit, I still have a little bit left. I'm still on my student loan journey. But I've recently found kind of a passion for paying student loans off in congruent with what Dan does as well. And I'm like, hey, I got to, if I'm going to start teaching, I got to start living it too. And so I realized, I'm like, I'm going to, I made a decision maybe a couple years ago. I said, I need to start paying off student loans more aggressively or coming up with a plan. So that's actually what got me started. And I realized this is something that I actually like to teach. Awesome. All right. Well, let's jump in. I would love to learn a little more about your background, Meredith. So, of course, you are a veterinarian, and you traveled your way into the personal financial space, you said, by paying, you know, you got really interested when you started paying off your student loans. Maybe talk me through some of the, like, feelings you had at the time about your debt situation. You know, what you were seeking out at the time for help and the guidance that you were finding at the time. And tell us how you did it. Yeah, so for me, my story, so I graduated from NC State back in 2008, did an internship, moved to Richmond, Virginia, bought a house. And then from a student loan perspective, that's kind of when it hit me that I had six-figure student debt that I was going to have to pay off. So I'm familiar with that sort of shock moment that happens when you realize like, okay, now I've got to figure out a plan for this to get it paid off. And so, and also just the weight of that and what that feels like. And so, for me, I did have a lower amount of debt compared to most veterinarians who graduate today. So with graduating back in 2008, it was 106,000. So a lot of the vets, as you know, that we meet with through student loan consults have over 250,000, or they may have over 400,000 in some cases. And so it was a little bit different for me as far as making a plan to pay it off for that reason. I also had the benefit of things were a little bit different back then. My interest rates were about 3% on average versus... Someone just threw up. Exactly. Yeah. Versus them being more like 6% or 7% today. And they made some changes, as you know, back in 2012, where my loans, about half of them were subsidized loans where the government took care of the interest while I was in school versus now they don't do that for graduate loans or vet school loans. So, yeah. So there was definitely a bit of a frugality component to it, where we went... My husband and I went down to one car, but we did have a dual income that we were working with. So that's another thing that's important when you're thinking about what one person's strategy is versus another. We held off on doing some home renovations. We still went on vacation because that's important. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. And certainly, whenever I talk about my story and the fact I paid off my loans in about three and a half years once I got serious about it, I also always want to acknowledge that the world of student loans is different now compared to what it was back then. And just because one person pays them off, that doesn't mean that another plan like income-driven repayment isn't going to be the best plan for other people. Yeah. No, that's a great point because... And I think you have a good understanding of just how things have changed because you see it, you lived it, and then you see what vets, veterinarians, and professionals face now. And for some perspective, we track how many veterinarians we work with at Student Loan Planner and their average amount of debt. And right now, the average amount of vet school debt that we see is about 283. So almost 300,000 of student loan debt. And averages are very dangerous because there are folks that are going to be lower than that amount. There's going to be folks higher than that amount. So that doesn't really tell us the true... Maybe we should have a median number, but... So very different than maybe the 100 that you had. And so the plan itself is completely... It can be personalized. So what you did may not match up, may not be a great plan for someone who's coming out of school with 300,000 of loans today. But it's also important to acknowledge the different ways you can go about student loan repayment. But that's incredible that you really buckled down and started to drill down on your loan balance. And you still prioritized what was important to you guys, like vacations, and maybe put off some of the things that weren't as much of a priority for you at the time. So you really got invested in learning about finance and maybe frugality, like you said, once you were learning how to pay back your loans, right? Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that was happening in the veterinary profession around that time is there were more and more conversations about personal finance being a pain point in the profession and also student debt as well. And so there were a lot of these kind of ivory tower discussions going on about it, and there weren't a lot of discussions between veterinarians about it. And so I took a financial coaching course that year, and then I decided to start the Debt Free Vets Facebook group to kind of give a place for veterinarians to have those conversations about money. Yes. Oh, my gosh. I was going to segue into this. I love that you not only learned information and applied it to your own personal situation, but you sat back and thought, man, I've got to help other people with this too. And so you started Debt Free Vets, a big Facebook group, and that blew up, right? That has a lot of members in it currently. Yeah, we started with about 42 members, and now we have 15,000 that's invested. Holy cow. That's amazing. Are you still actively involved in managing the Facebook page? Yes. Yeah. So you're a busy woman. Yeah. That's really cool. Okay. Well, I want to circle back to the vet page because I do have questions about what a lot of maybe veterinarians have questions about or what you see a lot of conversations about. But I want to pivot back to you, Gabe. And I told Gabe right before this, I was like, I'm going to call you Dan multiple times through this segment because you guys definitely look like siblings. But tell me a little bit about your background. You're a little different. You are obviously not a veterinarian, but you also weren't in the financial planning space either. So tell me a little bit about your career path. Thank you. Yeah, I'm definitely not in the veterinarian space. I didn't even go anything biological really. I went into engineering at the time and got my undergrad over in Wyoming. And when I got out in 2018, so yeah, somewhat recently, and then COVID hit, and then it just kind of blew everything over as far as career plan. So I would say when I got out of my undergrad, 2018, I got out and I needed to take my first payment in November. And I remember getting out of college with, yeah, about mid-108 actually with my undergrad. I stayed in a little bit longer. My story is I grew up and I was raised in the northwest, the Pacific rainforest in Oregon. And then I was educated in the swamps of Louisiana over there in Baton Rouge, where I was actually educated to kind of mess around a little too much and kind of, you know, having a little bit too much fun. So I couldn't focus there. And I applied and I got in as a transfer into Wyoming. And I finished my education over there, but I wasn't able to bring all my transfer credits with me. So I almost started over three years into my undergrad. And that's primarily the reason why I actually borrowed that much money for an undergrad. So it kind of struck a little bit deeper because when I got out, I realized I'm like, I'm in a hole. My family at the time wasn't as educated about financial planning, especially in the student loan sector. It wasn't until Dan actually took a little bit more, a little bit more of the lead on trying to figure this out because there was five of us, five kids, and all of us borrowed on student loans. And I'm actually really happy that my dad did this because he didn't have any idea. But once you realize, you're like, once you give one kid, one thing, all the other four, you know, kind of want the same thing. So it's a good thing that, you know, we all went to school and got out, you know, relatively scape free. But we got out with, you know, a fair amount of loans. I think I actually, I got out with 108. I think my sister got out with 110 for undergrad out of New Jersey. And I think we held the trophy over there for the largest student loans. But at the same time, we needed to figure out a plan for paying it off. And I was essentially had an undergrad 108 mortgage that I was never going to actually live in. So like a little mini mortgage in there. And I realized this is this is money because I was going through college. I didn't even realize. I didn't even realize that every semester costed money. I was just, you know, the student athlete and in college and the Division One University. And I thought that, you know, a scholarship was a scholarship. Turns out, you know, something I actually like to tell a lot of kids going into college, if they're going to go in for athletics, you know, I try to, I try to give them the best gist that I can. I'm like, hey, if you're on a partial, let me know if you're on a full scholarship, call me in four years, kind of deal because every, every, every scholarship is can actually be broken down into, you know, miniscule pieces. And I was on the receiving end of a partial scholarship, and I just didn't understand the gravity of it. So I borrowed the rest of the money on tuition and board. And I found out when I got out in 2018 that I needed to make that first payment in November. It was, it was a reality moment. Absolutely. It was a reality moment. But lucky for me, I was able to pick up this gig when I got out of school. And this gig was tutoring. It was something that I legitimately, I enjoyed. I enjoyed it a lot. I was helping high schoolers, I was helping college students. Before I exited Wyoming, I did that for two years as well for student-athletes and at the college library as well, trying to help people through undergrad courses. And I realized that the people that actually I could have potentially the most impact on was high school students. And so when I got back and I started working for Intel, I eventually worked into the semiconductor manufacturing industry. So making little microchips. I was teaching on my days off. So I would actually pick up some tutoring sessions. And it turns out these kids had nothing wanted, they wanted nothing with college, but their parents obviously thought something else. So I had to navigate the waters of trying to tell them, you know, here's a really good career path, but I couldn't name it as career. I had to say, okay, I got to think for your parents too, but I couldn't say that either. So I'd have my end of my consult and I would write a little summary at the end. And I'd try to loop the parents in what the kid wants. And I'd try to loop in what the parents want and try to tell the kid from an outside source. Like this is where you should go and this is what I think you'd be good at. And that's where really, you know, I was actually a tutor, but realistically the last quarter of the meeting was consultation. Yeah. That's really cool. So you, and I didn't know that you had a scholarship. What sport did you play in college? I was a swimmer. Dan was a swimmer. John was a swimmer. We were all swimmers in college. That's awesome. Okay. So yeah, you were under the impression, oh, well I have a scholarship. I don't really have to worry about the money side of things. And, you know, it wasn't, you know, and having, not having the experience too. Like if your parents weren't super familiar with the financial aid process or just, you know, the process of getting through school, it could have, it could have definitely become a reality check towards the end. Cause when you're in school, those loans are at bay. They're in the school deferment status. There's not really a reason to look at them unless you, unless you want to, unless you want to invoke pain on yourself during school. But I could understand how that shock, like after, after school, after finishing up thinking that, you know, that scholarship would have paid for so much. But then looking at the reality of, oh, it did pay for some, but I didn't realize how much it did not pay for. I can understand that being a huge shock. But I love that both of you guys, and I think this is true for all of the student loan planner consultants. Like we all enjoy helping people and coaching people on things that we've, we've kind of learned the hard way in a sense. Like that we've learned that we know can be impactful for them to, to know and to be familiar with. So, you know, student loans and schooling and helping people kind of figure out their future. Those are uncomfortable conversations for sure. Especially if like you said, Gabe, if someone doesn't really want to talk about it, they're not really interested in it. But the, we know that these conversations are super impactful and can be helpful to help people set themselves up for a better future. And so we all have that, you know, but almost that grit to get through those uncomfortable conversations so people can see the other side, the positives of the other side. And so, and that was the same with you, Meredith, with you, you know, wanting to share the information you learned with, with your community and help people who were having these, these issues with finance and with student loans and balancing everything that you have to balance as a younger professional, you know, working, making a living, paying back debts, saving, doing the things that you want to do. So let's, I'd love to hear a little bit more about, so the Debt Free Vets Facebook group that you, you'd still run. I'm impressed that you are still doing that. What types of questions do you see? And I'm sure there's a lot, but what types of questions do you see posted a lot in that channel or that people are either asking or struggling with, with when it comes to finance? We get a ton of student debt questions as, as you would expect. Yeah. And lately just a lot of questions about the new save plan and, you know, is, is that plan right for me? And, and of course, as you know, there there's, there's a lot that goes into figuring out the answer to that question. And so lots of questions about that. We also have, there's, there's definitely a big discussion going on in the veterinary profession about compensation and production-based compensation and making sure that you're being compensated fairly. And so there are a lot of questions about that and about contracts as well. Cause contracts are very, employment contracts are very confusing. Oh, I bet. Yeah. So, so tons of questions about that. And so those are the, those are the main things. And sometimes we'll have someone just post a question about just, you know, they say, I don't know anything about finance and where do I start? Yeah. And that's a very, like that can be a very scary question to ask too. Cause it puts that person in a position of saying, Hey, I need help. I just, I don't know where to go first though. So that's, that's great that you've built this community that people feel comfortable enough to, to, you know, ask those questions. And I'm sure there's people in there that are willing to help and answers those questions. And it, it, I'm sure it's a very supporting group. Is it public where anybody can join or do you have to accept people? We have to accept people. Yeah. We, we asked them a couple of questions to make sure that they're either a vet or vet student. And just to make sure that we're only letting, letting those folks in. Oh yeah. No, that makes sense. Well, cool. So if you're a veterinarian out there and you had not heard about this Facebook group, go check it out. So starting with the Facebook group, you know, that led into something that really blew up into a really helpful tool for folks and a community for folks. Did that spark the idea for you to, to start the veterinary financial summit that you run? That's a good question. Yeah. I mean, in a way, yes, as far as me being more immersed in personal finance and student debt and just becoming more interested in those subjects. And then what happened after that is I met a colleague at conference who was also really interested in personal finance. And we said, well, you know, let's, let's start a conference. And so we started the veterinary financial summit, which is a virtual conference. And so this is going to be the fourth year that we're running the conference. It's September 30th and October 1st, right around the time student loans, student loan payments start up. Perfect timing, right? Exactly. Exactly. So we focus on personal finance. So investing, student debt, entrepreneurship topics, and then also practice finance and practice management. That's awesome. And that's actually how we met. I met you through that channel because I think you had reached out, I believe, and I actually don't even know this, but was it you that reached out to Travis to have somebody come in and speak on student loans specifically? Yeah, I did. Yeah. And I had, I had had a conversation with him at FinCon back when, back when it was a brand new idea. So back in 2019 before COVID hit and said, Hey, I'd like to have someone from Student Loan Planner speak at the summit. And so, so yeah, and then we had you join us for one of the virtual conferences. And then we had you on the Vet Financial podcast as well. Yeah. So yeah, it's been fun. No, I loved it. And I've, I love those speaking engagements too. Cause it's, and it, I think you also, you had some very helpful, like you were interjecting into some of the, some questions into the conversation, which I love because I feel like sometimes presentations can be so like, am I, you know, am I hitting the mark? Am I talking about things that people are interested in hearing about? And I think you did such a good job. I remember of just kind of directing some questions to help me further, like cater it to what, what you guys were looking for. So I really liked that, but that's also that. And then sitting in on the podcast with you guys, I quickly picked up like, Oh dang, Meredith knows a lot about student loans. And I was really impressed. And you knew a lot of really technical knowledge that like most people don't know about student loans. And so I remember when we, we started getting busier with student loan planner, we were talking about, okay, well, who do we know that we think could jump in? And I was like, you know what? We should ask Meredith. This might be crazy, but I know she's you know, in the financial planning space. I think we should ask Meredith if she's interested in coming on board. And I think I called you and maybe threw you totally off, right? Yeah, I wasn't, it was unexpected. Yeah. And so, but, but yeah, you were instrumental in bringing me on at student loan planner and I'm so happy to be a part of the team. Good. I'm so happy you, you accepted our, our extension or our offer to join the team. And we're happy to have you. And then same for you, Gabe. I can't wait to, you know, I feel like I know Meredith a little more just because we, we had those experiences in the past together. But I'm excited to, to see you join in on the team as well. And you've got a fantastic firsthand teacher, Dan. Dan joined our team, I believe, I want to say back in either 2020 or 2021. So he's been, he's been with us a little bit. And he had mentioned you multiple times. He said, you know, my brother might be a great, you know, person to bring on board. And so I think, I think that was awesome that, that you, you did, in fact, decide to come over. So was there a defining moment for you? Or was there something Dan said that made you want to, want to jump in and help people with their student loans? Well, yeah, actually, you know, when Dan brought it up, I think I mentioned earlier, he brought it up, I think it was eight months ago. He was asking if I would join, I was just, I was not in a very good career spot. I was kind of plateaued. I was very kind of at a dead end job. And unfortunately, it took me quite some time to figure that out. And so he, you know, as Dan usually goes, he's pretty good at pointing out, you know, where the stops are, are, are where the chocks are in the wheels right now. And it took me a while to understand that. And when I realized, I'm like, you know, if I were to be able to help people versus, and unfortunately, I put it this way, but at work, I do a lot of calibration on tools and things that don't really talk back, they don't have, they don't have personalities. Although some people might claim that some tools do have personalities, I would say they're just a tool. But you know, they're, they're, there's something that need calibration and they don't really argue back and they don't really bring some sort of, you know, a reasonable argument for contradicting what you just explained us to do. And I said, you know, there's just not very personable. So I realized that, you know, I'm in, I'm in Arizona right now, and I'm from Oregon, and I make the transfer between Oregon and Arizona quite frequently. And I fly back and forth and kind of keep, you know, keep base touch around there in Oregon with construction. And I have a small business over there that I help manage sales and everything. So I realized having like a, this new era of like working from home. Some people I think dished it off as something that was something that was not possible, but the way that technology moves, I almost don't even want to be behind the curve at this point. But I'd really like to turn the page and get through with my, with my dead end career at twisting screws, if you want to put it that way. So I realized, you know, I, Dan brought it up, and I've had the last eight, eight months to incubate this idea. And when he mentioned it, I think it was last month, I was like, I want to more aggressively pay off my student loans, but more in a much more concise way. And I don't want to be a part of the pool where I'm not, you know, being hypocritical, if you want to put it that way. But I'd really like to take another different step in paying off student loans, and as well as at least spreading information that would help other people in their process as well. So I guess that would be not so much of a defining point, but something that I feel passionate about. And it's something that I'm willing to quit my job and, and do this full time. And this is something that I feel like I could at least expand on. So it sounds to me like, in a way, you were really like craving more, more of a human component to the work that you were doing something that was more maybe impactful. And I think it probably just hit home for you more than it could maybe just someone in the financial planning profession, profession that doesn't have student loans, like it hit more home for you on how impactful your advice can be, like when you're helping people navigate such a nasty topic of student loans, like there's a lot of negative feelings and emotions and, you know, just assumptions also to around around student loans. And wanting to have the right plan in place is, I think that's a lot of people's desire. And but sometimes it's a really scary topic. And so I think, you know, you're kind of taking into account your own situation, you're taking into account your desire to help people to to like to coach people. And I think it's great that you, you and Dan were thinking, you know, you would be a great fit to help people, you know, conquer the same, you're also on the same journey or a similar journey, helping people conquer something that you're actively going through as well. So you'll have a little bit of a different perspective than myself, for example, pick on myself, I did not have student loans going through school. Number of reasons why I had some money saved. I also worked full time through school. I was a freak and I went to school at night and worked full time during the day. I don't recommend that it was a really hard schooling adventure. But I didn't graduate with student loans. So I didn't really know the personal side of what people went through. And so I think you guys with with having that personal attachment or personal experience, I should say, it does help you have more perspective and the empathy to really help people with this this nasty topic, because I think a lot of times people get scared to ask for help because debt is historically a really bad thing to have. People have very bad feelings around debt. They think there's only one way to tackle debt, and that's to pay it off. But we know that that's not not necessarily the case. It doesn't have to be that way. There's lots of repayment routes that we can consider, which also makes it very confusing and hard to navigate for people. So if we have the you know, I think it's great that you guys have the desire to want to help people and navigate the system with people and you guys bring your your own experiences to the table to and to really help people make good choices with their student loan plan because that'll trickle into the rest of their finances. Well, I'm really enjoying getting to know you guys. And I think one thing on on this podcast I know I catch myself doing all the time is talking more finance speak or like the financial planning speak in me like I'll say things that might not really hit home with people when I'm talking about some of the nuances of student loans or financial planning. So I think it's really cool and really unique that that you Meredith with your past professional experience, you have a similar way of really dissecting a case even though so we could be talking about a student loan planning case and you know, maybe a case that you would have had in the past with a small animal for example, but you'd have a similar approach on kind of there's a process right to talk through how to get to the next step of whatever that that person's situation is or goal is. So instead of me explaining kind of in financial speak, what a student loan consultation or what working with a student loan professional looks like, what are some similarities that you see or how you could maybe articulate it better in the vet space like as diagnosing a patient for example. I think that would be cool to hear kind of the parallels there. Sure. Yeah, there are definitely some similarities between how we work with clients as student loan consultants and how doctors work with how veterinarians work with clients. It's still working through cases. So veterinarians work through medical cases and student loan consultants work through student loan cases and so we both take a history. So when we start a student loan consult we are often asking a series of questions and we talk about their goals for the consult and sometimes in medicine we're also talking to people about their goals especially on an emergency basis. Some people are just trying to get their pet through the day so that they can go to their regular vet tomorrow and some people are trying to figure out the answer and the diagnosis and so talking about goals and then taking those answers and using them when we're talking about the plan and tailoring our recommendations and what we talk to clients about based on those answers and we both do information gathering. So in medicine that's our physical exam and it's our diagnostics and with a student loan consult it's getting those details. So we get their student loan data file, we're putting the information into a couple of spreadsheets and then getting that information and in medicine we come up with a treatment plan and in the student loan space we are coming up with action steps for the clients. I love that. I love the breakdown of it because it is it's a it's a process of we have a starting point, we have our ending point, how do we get there and how do we diagnose the situation and how do we get to the result which is you know in the student loan world the plan the plan of action and I love that that parallel. Thanks for elaborating on it and also you know you I will say too you've crushed it starting out. We have thrown you into the deep end Meredith because we were desperate for some help when the news came out about contractors in states like California and Texas can now qualify mostly physicians working in in non-profit hospital settings. They can now qualify for public service loan forgiveness due to this new rule change that happened back in July and then payments are kicking back in it seems like in October. So we were starting to to feel the effects of people you know getting worried about what their payment plan was going to look like and our schedule was getting booked up and you came on board and and you were able to alleviate some of those those extra meetings and you jumped right into it you know and I know it's been a lot all at once to learn some especially all the changes that are still happening like that's I think the big challenge of the student loan planning space right now is you know we'll plan for one thing and we'll talk about possibilities of that plan changing but then we get thrown you know a wrench or not not to say a wrench but like a a fact that really changes the game for the plan. So we have to quickly pivot and figure out okay well how does that affect our our strategy for some of these people how does that affect you know our advice that we're giving because it's a very fast changing pace and world right now that we're in with student loans and I know folks are are getting a little winded you know it feels like a sprint lately with all the things that are changing and you jumped into it Meredith and you did not sink you're swimming just fine but you've you've really helped us out a lot Meredith and for you Gabe I'm very excited for you to be on the team as well and you know we're gonna be busy but I am looking forward to being busy with you guys and helping change lives and save people a lot of money. So thank you guys for joining in on the podcast today to just introduce yourselves get people acquainted with you and if you would specifically like to to book with either one Gabe or Meredith we'll put the the specific scheduling links in the show notes. So thank you guys so much I cannot wait for this year with you and thanks everyone for listening in today. Catch us on the next episode.