Medieval Warbow vs. Windlass Crossbow: Speed & Accuracy

Ready? Ready. Let's go. Hi it's Tod of Tod's Workshop and Tod Cutler here and today we're going to do one of those burning questions people have been asking about for ages. It's a speed trial between a proper longbow. We've got Joe Gibbs here, Warbow Archer and well Warbow Bowyer. He can shoot an extraordinary 200 pounds. Today he's just doing 160. I'm on a windlass crossbow, 860 pounds in draw weight and we'll just have a look at the difference in speed between shooting. We'll start our time trial as if we're two bodies of archers ready to start shooting each other. So I will span my bow and have that ready. It doesn't take Joe long to get ready and here we go. Well there's the thing eh? Let's go fetch him. And you've got another one straight in the centre. Quite clearly the longbow, Joe's longbow, outshot me massively so I didn't even manage to get a second bolt off. So the obvious thing is on the surface the crossbow is a completely useless weapon compared to the longbow, but a windlass crossbow similar to this, either this or a sinew prod or a u-prod, they were used for hundreds of years, at least 200 years. So what's going on? I mean what were your observations of that Joe Basie? It took you obviously quite a while to span it, you know after a bit of training that you know I could do it quite happily, whereas the longbow takes a fair few years to build up the strength and technique and just to be accurate with a longbow takes a long time. And you were accurate, depressingly so. Yeah I think that's very true, I mean I haven't even bothered drawing your bow, I mean I haven't even picked it up, I mean there's just no point, whereas I have given you the windlass bow to shoot and you can shoot it quite comfortably, which is very, that's very interesting in its own right because I mean you know sort of the bands of crossbow archers were very well paid, I think well better paid than longbow archers. So it's kind of that there's a big mystery there because if it's so easy to use, really what's going on? I mean one of the things is you know your bow is essentially a cheap item and that is essentially an expensive item. It's the same in industry now, if you've got expensive equipment you charge a lot for the time even if the job is very easy. I suppose those guys were pretty proficient soldiers as well, you know they were well kitted out in armour as well. I think what's very frustrating for me with this that you don't have, you can shoot, you just pick it up and shoot it, I mean it's just utterly painless in that sense, whereas I have to be really careful to get ready for the next shot because when I have to unwind my windlass fully, you have to lay it down carefully on the ground so it doesn't tangle up for the next shot and still you get the ropes around the trigger sometimes and you know it's just, I shoot it reasonably regularly but not again and again, you know I'm not drilling for it. Yeah I suppose they would have done that and they're people spanning them for them didn't they? Yeah I mean that's that's a very good point. You could have got twice the amount of bolts off probably. Yes I could, so you hand the windlass to somebody and while you're shooting they're getting it ready for the next, so yeah that was often done behind a mobile shield, but if I double my shots you're still twice as fast as I am. I didn't even get two off you know and I was ready to go on the first one. Right true. So yeah that is interesting but I suppose it comes down to the social structure of England as well isn't it because every guy had to shoot a bow. Yeah they did. And so every guy can shoot, maybe not like you can shoot, but they can shoot. Shoot a decent bow still. Yeah and that wasn't possible on the continent to field those armies. You need to have specialist troops for that and if the best you've got is a crossbow because you can't field 2,000 longbowmen, then it's a crossbow you use. Yeah. So I mean tell me about the training, I mean how long, how hard, how much? So basically I've been shooting heavy type bows for 16, 17 years, so I started when I was quite young about sort of 14, 15 I started. Started on the heavier bows as in no obviously not on the first one but no no quickly into it 70 pounds plus really yeah and then um and slowly worked up from there made me own bows so I was able so it wasn't too expensive for me to work up because I could make my own kit so it's just a cheap way of doing it and I shoot two three times a week so maybe 100 arrows a week. Go on then and how often do you get the 200 out? Oh maybe only sort of every two weeks or something just otherwise I don't want to knacker myself you need a bit of time for your body to recover because it's a you know it's a serious weight yeah I only basically I didn't shoot two but I loaded two um I wouldn't want to do that for half an hour I mean I couldn't do that for half an hour what I was doing there I couldn't do it um now I know that they're going to be fitter and that's what they're geared up for but I mean as you stand now with 160 pound bow shooting let's just say four or five shafts in a minute yeah how long do you think you can keep probably not that long I could get the sort of two sheaves off as for shooting after that I think I'd probably be a bit knackered for constant shooting if I had you know just a bit of a break you know just took my time about it maybe a few more but after the two sheaves I'd probably be ready to shut my bow down and fight anyway so yeah so I mean there's there's kind of with battles you know that the engagement was several hours long yeah and so you've got some sort of vision of the archer just for several hours just pumping them out but just not possible now no I don't think I'll want to spray all my arrows out in one go anyway I'll probably take my time about it and and choose my shots to be honest yeah well it takes a lot of control so it's not just pulling the action of pulling a bow it's when you release because your body's under you know a hell of a lot of compression and when you let go of that string your body wants to release it so you have to control that bow arm from stop it doing this or this and so I mean do you concentrate on your technique or do you just no I think it just comes naturally so your body does what it has to do to pull the bow and once you've been doing it for so long yeah you don't have to concentrate on pulling the bow or anything it's all natural bang job done no no sort of aiming no gap aiming or no it's all instinctive so I'm just looking at the target and your arm knows where it's got to go to yeah to find that that's shooting three times a week isn't it yeah exactly in medieval England it was a requirement from being quite small boy for every man in the land to learn how to shoot a bow so if you take let's say a 14 year old lad and you try to work him up to the to the war bows how often would he have to shoot and how long would it take to sort of do the thing safely because obviously you can injure yourself by over over going it I would say to get him up to 100 pounds would probably take take you know probably a year because you know if he's not done much before it'd take you know take quite a while for them everything to start to build and stuff but I would you know 100 pounds should be pretty achieve it's achievable for everyone 100 pounds you should be able to shoot 100 pounds no problem and then you should be able to and then the heavier you get you just you just got to take their time really I would say within five years he should be able to be shooting a decent weight 150 pounds and then so it's not necessarily the the strength that makes you a good archer it's being able to hit stuff you know if you can shoot 150 pound bow but but you're spraying arrows everywhere what's the point yeah you might as well shoot 100 pound bow and shoot and hit what you're shooting at but the other thing that was I found very interesting was as I said before I've I've been shooting for a long time but not heavy bows and I've been very interested in war bows and I thought well I you know want to learn how to shoot and there was a lady came into my shop one day carrying a bow and it was quite obviously a significant bow and it turned out to be 80 pounds but she was like five foot two you know small lady and I asked her how she could draw that because I thought there's like no way I can't pull that and she showed me how to do it showed me sort of a different technique to the the modern sort of target archery that I'd been shooting before and that I found enormously interesting so we then went down the range and I shot it and I shot it by using a different technique and I shot it relatively comfortably yeah and that was an absolute eye-opener for me that the technique is different it's completely different technique so you you want to be using a lot of your back muscles um so it's not you're not just pulling it with your arms yes your arm not you're not going to do it with just your arm so you need to engage all your back muscles in it and as much as you can just to get that bow back really it's it's technique and strength yeah that combination yeah you need the combination to be able to do it yeah so in in the especially like the last 10 years the the people shoot heavy bows uh the average has gone up so uh 10 years ago you know if someone said oh I'm shooting 100 pounds everyone but 100 pounds you know but now it's like the average has gone up to 125 130 pounds this is the norm uh so I feel in another 10 years it would be higher yeah and but they but you know medieval times it'd been going on for hundreds of years so yeah well in every village like this one yeah has got a but you know there's always somewhere you can go and shoot and hang out with your mates exactly so when you're out shooting with your mates you go oh you can have a go of my bow and and such and such you go oh let's have a go your one see if I can pull it you know that's it I suppose when you've got a whole culture built on the bow you know men like to boast I don't suppose that's ever changed and you know and you are going to be having a go and trying to get yourself bigger and better than a bloke next door exactly so you know people always ask me if they can have a go on my boat you know and some people pull it you know I'm not saying I'm the only one out there does it because I'm not yeah there's guys out there who can shoot 160 pound bows as well um not many but there's a there's a few you know and I've helped them along their way help them train up and and such and such so do you do any any training any weight training sort of with a bow in mind that doesn't involve a bow I don't have a physical job so I do uh a small amount of weights just at home just to keep in shape but there's nothing in a gym that represents a bow you can't you cannot there's nothing will help you pull a bow if you want to shoot a bow shoot a bow that's it full stop there's no point going down the gym thinking oh if I can bench press you know such and such oh yeah nope rubbish if you want to shoot a bow get out there and shoot a bow yeah that's it and bow is your gym exactly you don't need anything else I think there were two very notable things actually about that trial that we've just done speed trial was one of course is that you're out shooting me shot for shot quite clearly many times over the other thing that is notable is that your arrows are going through the boss and sticking out the other side the bolts that I was shooting sometimes they come out the back sometimes they don't so just on that very easy thing there you can say that your one is your bow is more powerful than mine mine has got this fantastic headline number of 860 pounds yours is a rubbish 160 pounds you know you're 700 pounds off so what's going on and that's you know it's it's just a really simple thing is that when you draw your bow you're accelerating the arrow over what 25 26 yes you've got roughly roughly a six inch brace height and then it's drawn back to 30 so yeah it's about 24 inches so you're getting your energy into the arrow pushing it forward 24 inches yes I'm pushing it for six inches six and a half inches so a quarter of what you've got yeah and so I've got a massive headline number but the efficiency of this is absolutely appalling uh but that's what's curious because it was true now and it's true back then yeah if the efficiency is so bad and actually this is delivering less power than than yours is you know why are they using it and I think there are advantages because one thing to remember is this style of windlass bow it's called an English windlass so the English were not just about long bows you know they use crossbows as well and these are great for sieges if you're up on the battlements there or if I'm on battlements and you want to shoot me you have to step out of your cover you have to expose a lot expose you have to draw because you can't step out drawn and that takes time where you've got a few guys on the castle having a pop back at you whereas I can be from a hide shooting through a hole that big it's good for that sort of sniping type thing that that long-term warfare where the rate of shooting is not quite so important so that's where they're very useful in sieges and you see them quite a lot in naval warfare as well okay crossbows handy for that I think probably again because you know if you imagine with all the rigging and the low decks and everything else a long bow is a difficult thing to you it can be a clumsy uh clumsy weapon in a confined space yeah you keep hitting the nocks and tips and everything with a crossbow it's a lot easier yeah and I mean the thing is as well I don't know if you're the same as me but when I shoot a long bow even if I've got a couple of twigs or something above my head your mind is not on what you're shooting you're sort of like you're halfway up there trying to and it must be hell if you got rigging and stuff like that around you it's almost impossible like you say if I come up the draw and even just the smallest twig touches the top of the limb you can feel it it puts you off yeah if you loose that it sounds stupid but if you're loose and your limb hits the smallest twig going it upsets the shot so you know you don't want it you don't want anything near you you know let alone a you know rigging rope or something like that and on the surface they are far outclassed by the long bow I mean you can't deny that but they are for different purposes really and they're either because you can't field an army full of longbows because you haven't got the guys to do it or otherwise the style of warfare bit naval or siege actually can give the crossbow an advantage even though it can't do the rate of shooting because again one of the comments I get often is oh that's really slow that's really useless they'd never have used that it's like um look in the pictures they did all the time for hundreds of years so it was a very effective weapon but um if it was you and me in a field 100 yards apart I know where I put my money yeah thanks Joe and I also thought it'd be interesting to have a look at the accuracy of the two weapons what I would say Joe shoots three times a week and is a world-class archer I shoot once twice a month a few shots so I'm not but let's just have a look as a relatively competent crossbowman against a very excellent longbowman what we can both do at 25 meters now as you can see here this is my group right of center Joe's group left of center but actually in terms of group size they're fairly comparable and on the basis that Joe shoots two to three times a week and I shoot off a couple of bolts every few weeks really it just shows that a crossbow is an easier weapon to aim and so if you're experienced in it you're quite clearly going to get better grouping than a longbow guy I must say I was a bit worried you were going to completely blow me out the water and I'm quite thankful that you didn't and as it came out the two groupings were we both shot a little off but the two groupings were about the same size yeah not far off well you can the crossbow is obviously you can you can pick one up and train to use it uh quite quickly obviously it's got less variables than the longbow yeah uh a longbow is you've got this arm this arm and you're loose uh so that's why like the draw draw that's why it takes so many years to to be able to shoot accurately it was a nice thing to see how the two compare and I think it's clear that the crossbow is inherently a more accurate weapon because of the lower number of variables involved yeah and a comparison that is often made in comments that I get is that the crossbow is the sniper rifle of medieval times and actually I think there's probably some truth in that because you can lay in wait for your target yeah and then when you do shoot you're inherently pretty accurate and so there's a good chance you're hitting the target so I think it's actually a fairly valid comparison uh certainly for siege warfare but it is a bit like the sniper rifle yeah I would say so yeah but yeah but Joe thank you once again it's been great having you here thank you I enjoyed it that was good and hopefully we'll go again yeah definitely