Mortgage Interest Rates Just BOTTOMED

Have you missed the boat when it comes to refinancing or purchasing? Interest rates have moved up nearly three quarters of a percent from the lows in just over two weeks. So Josh, that's what we're going to dive into today's episode. We're going to talk about have you missed the boat when it comes to taking advantage of the lowest rates that we've seen in nearly two years? It's an important question. It's probably the number one question that I've got in the last two days. Um, we had a lot of people that were on the fence, people at higher interest rates, but I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I want to do this. There's costs, uh, rates are going to go lower. I'm just going to wait. And at risk of sounding like we're talking out of both sides of our mouth, what we had been telling those folks is, Hey, if you have a smaller loan, if you have a smaller interest rate savings, probably justifiable to wait and see and make sure that we have more savings on the table. But we had a lot of folks with 250, 350, $400 saying, ah, I'm going to wait and see where it goes. And those folks are the ones that have reached out, um, since Friday's jobs report. So it's important to know. We talk a lot about technical analysis here, Jeb. We don't want to drag the listeners that don't follow that stuff down into the weeds, but there's this concept of being overbought or oversold. So overbought just means the price of something. Um, too many people bought it. It got too good. And over, you know, a six, eight week period, mortgage bonds had gotten significantly overbought. And in the matter of less than a week, um, probably from Tuesday of last week through today, we are now in an oversold position. And it's important to note that that can extend for a longer period than anyone would like to, to acknowledge. Well, well, let's talk about that because I'll, you know, we've kind of touched on it a little bit, like buy the rumor, sell the news, right? So the bond market's been front loading, I guess, if you would, uh, the expectations that, you know, of, of, of jobs reports, of what the fed would do of CPI of all of these different economic indicators, if you will. And so the bond market's been ahead of it, um, almost to a detriment to some degree, because what's happened is, you know, the bond market's moved well, rates have improved. And then when we've gotten the actual news, we've kind of sold off a little bit and it's to be expected when it comes to the stock market, when it comes to trading bonds and all of that. But now what we have is we have not only the news coming out, but the news is better than expected, right? So it wasn't the quote unquote dismal readings that a lot of us thought we were going to get based off previous reports. So we've had previous, you know, economic reports or employment reports rather that have been trending lower. And then all of a sudden we get this blockbuster report that it's really hard to kind of pin down if you will. And, and, you know, you can call it conspiracy theorists, whatever, but it just, it's not in line. Either way. What we've seen with that report is the bond market has said the hell with you guys. We're not going, we're not doing this front loading thing anymore. We're going the other direction. We're going more into a safe Haven. And with that Josh, what rates have shot up half a percent since, you know, Thursday, Wednesday, Thursday last week. Yeah. From, from what we're quoting. And part of that is, um, there's been an anomaly on rate sheets in that lenders have been pricing the eighths. So say a 6.125 or a 5.625 or 6.625 better than things in between them. So that sort of exacerbated the problem that normally you could say, well, we should have gone from 6.125 to 6.375 and you're actually a little bit higher than that for, for most buyers, just because the intermediate rates are not priced very well right now. So you get these funny looking rate sheets. Um, but the, the big picture that I want to push back on is that, that jobs report was not a blockbuster jobs report. It was stronger than what people thought. Um, but it was under 300,000 to give you some context back at the beginning of 2023 when rates had dipped or was it even the beginning here of 2024 we got a really strong jobs report. It was like 500,000 jobs created. Um, now that was substantially revised lower later on. And that's some of the thinking that's going on. So I think a lot of what we're dealing with right now, these whipsaws is of rates getting a lot better and then giving it back and then getting better and then giving it back is just uncertainty. The markets want to think that rates are going lower and should be lower, but then any little bit of data causes it to go back the other direction. And the fed has not helped in this regard in that there, if you look every two, three weeks, the messaging changes when they're out talking. So if you look at what a great Greenspan, what pal said before the last meeting, what he said at the meeting, and then what he said last week, you're like those, that's, it's a different message. It's not vastly different. He's not, uh, you know, turning around and going 180 degrees the other direction. But what we've, we've said for the last year is this is a highly confounding market. So we all want to believe in the power of experts. We want to believe there's someone that you can ask a question and they know the answer. Markets are not like that. There are smart people who have really strong insights into this. But as I've talked about many times, I've got really strong people are smart people on opposite sides with strong opinions on opposite sides of that. You know, Peter book bar thinks rates are going back higher. David Rosenberg, thanks rates are going much lower. These are really smart guys with very well reasoned opinions. And if you listen to them and see what they're saying, and that's a little bit what we're going to talk about today, where are we at? Where could they go to the downside? Is the trend still intact for the downside? Does the fact that we have given up, you know, a third of the improvement in rates since, uh, the, you know, 90 120 day period here where we saw rates coming down, the fact that we've given a third of that up, does that mean that we've seen the best rates? Because we saw that in early 23, we had it in early 2024. We had it and the market every time has got way ahead of themselves. Instead of being cool and just a measured pace of decreases and letting the data roll out, the markets should be data dependent. They've gotten ahead of the data. And now we need more data to tell us that this isn't some incredibly robust, strong economy that is going to lead to higher levels of inflation and persistently elevated interest rates. No, but with that said, Josh, let's, we're going to talk about, you know, did you miss the boat? Where can rates go on the low side? But let's take a step back and actually talk about what you just said. If data continues to disappoint in, in, in regard to coming stronger, right? So it means the economy is still doing better than a lot of people think we're still adding jobs. Inflation is not a problem. The economy is still chugging along. Um, could interest rates move back up? Is that an, is that, is there an opportunity for the market again, to remain irrational, um, for a longer period of time versus just moving back into that trend of lower rates? Well, if we say rates as of today for well-qualified conventional borrowers or mid sixes, that's probably an appropriate level moving forward for a not too hot, not too cold economy, right? It's not slowing, not improving. And that's, that's probably where we're likely to be. Could it, you know, rates don't ever really just stay stable. They'll trend up for a few weeks trend back down, but somewhere mid sixes is probably pretty reasonable without seeing further weakness or strength. You know, if we had two, three months of strong jobs reports, if you had data coming out in form of CPI or PCE turning around and, and strengthening and going up, that would be surprising, but, uh, and, and also lead to higher interest rates. But let's look, uh, at the data, what we've seen in the last two, three, four CPI and PCE reports, really auto insurance and shelter are the two things that are, that are causing inflation. And yet we can see in all different sorts of advanced reads that shelter costs are moderating a home price appreciation is moderating, uh, rent price is absolutely really moderating. So when we look at that, inflation should continue to trend down and we have not seen a recession yet. We haven't seen a spike in unemployment. What we have seen is data that just doesn't jive with what we're seeing. When I say that it doesn't jive with an economy that's sort of middle of the road, just blah. It's not strong. It's not weak, but then we get these numbers that will go three months in one direction. And then you get two weeks of data that, that counteract that and say that things are stronger or better. So long-term direction is probably better for interest rates, but it's a hundred percent data dependent. And what data are we looking at? Over the longer haul GDP is going to tell us what that strength is, but the strength of the economy is, is employment underlying that. And what does that do to inflation when strong wages and high employment rates, low unemployment rates, uh, translate through the economy. All right. So let's now talk about what the fed is thinking. Um, you know, they they've given a new summary of, uh, economic projections. Uh, we've had, you know, the market as a whole start to get back in line with the fed projections. Now that you know, the data's been a little on the other side of things. And so let's actually talk about what that means at risk of boring people here and talking things that they don't truly care about. Let's talk about where rates can go. How do we get to lower rates? Have people truly miss the boat? Because I think there's a lot of people out there that are a bit scared. You know, we, we said a couple of weeks ago, Hey, you shouldn't wait. You should take advantage of these opportunities when they, when they present themselves, because you truly don't know what the market's going to do. And I followed that up by saying, although I do think rates are going to go lower, you gotta take, you know, the, the opportunities when, when they, when they're thrown at you. Right. I refinanced a couple of months ago, um, was able to take advantage of a super, you know, a rate that probably could have gotten it a little bit lower. Had I waited another couple of weeks, I mean, just recently, but had I not done that, I would have been back up probably where my rate was on after the last refinance. I was just fortunate enough to take advantage of an opportunity. It made sense to me. I was able to save four or 500 bucks, no cost, all of that. It made sense. So we we've said that, but there's people out there still waiting. So now they've not only got to wait for the new retracement to get back to where they were, they've got to then decide, do I wait again? Or do I take advantage of it? So let's talk about what that looks like. Before we jump into that, let's, let's talk about this. We've said on the show many times, um, every realtor, every mortgage professional over the last two years has loved to say, marry the house, date the rate. So let's look at what that looks like when it works out perfectly. Jeb who was well-qualified with a big down payment buys a house and he didn't like the payment, but he was comfortable. You didn't need to refinance to be able to afford your home. And you've been able to write it down two times. Now there was an article in the LA times about 90 days ago, right when rates first started coming down, talking to people who we bought knowing that we really couldn't afford this. We could qualify, but we couldn't afford this. But our mortgage professional told us that we were, you know, the house date, the rate, we're going to get a better payment. And those people who are all panicking and crying 90 days ago, probably didn't get a chance to refinance here. Um, hopefully they, they did it and took advantage. The important thing to remember when we're talking about, don't wait, it's don't wait to buy in thinking that there's going to be a better entry point. If you're qualified today, if you don't qualify or you can't afford it, or it's too much of a stretch, you need to wait till affordability till interest rates and prices are in a range where you can get what you want and need to be comfortable. But for people who are trying to say, Oh, I can do this, but I'm going to pick that optimal entry point. The entire premise of today's show is it's been almost impossible over the last two years to know what's coming from one month to the next. So by all means, if you are in a place in your life that it's time to buy and you find the right home and you can afford that payment by it with the hope that we're dating that interest rate. And it has, we've refinanced a bunch of people who bought at sort of the peaks in interest rates over the last few years, and then got them in on some of these dips. So even if we don't get a 4% interest rate at some point, you will have an opportunity most likely to get it lower, but you can't buy depending on that. You buy hoping on it. You can't depend on it. You can't plan on it. So let's look at where everything is. So Freddie Mac primary mortgage market survey comes out every Thursday. That was just the day before this hot jobs report. And it really reflects data from Monday. So it's about a week out of date and they're saying 6.12 mortgage news daily, which we tell you guys check because it's updated daily and gives you better information. They're at 6.62. So we can usually get well-qualified clients better than that. But six and a half 6.62 versus 6.07 I think was the low level that that measure hit probably a month ago. So when we look at that, the 10 year treasury, it looks like it's going to close at about 4.02. So we kind of blew that, that longterm down channel that we've been looking at for going on 90, 120 days now. So again, that doesn't mean that the trend is gone. It means that we have to expect something different in the near term. We may get down to, to those levels again. So when we're looking at it, you had mentioned the dot plots or the summary of economic projections, the fed said two more 25 basis point cuts. So 50 basis points over the rest of the year, they said a hundred next year and then 50 more in 2026 longterm projections are really, really difficult. So I say let's look at fourth quarter and maybe the first quarter of next year of what they're expecting. And they've already, like I said, Powell came out and is kind of talking back saying we need to see continued weakness. We're in no hurry to cut rates, even though they literally just three weeks ago said, we're going to cut rates 50 basis points more between now and the end of the year. Now they're somewhat backing off of that unless we get data that supports the view that the economy is slowing and need some support. So what we talk about the fed fund futures market, which is where people are actually wagering real money and that had gotten way ahead where they were saying there's gonna be 75 basis point cuts and 150 next year. And you look at that and you're like, well, that's a little wild. And as of today they are right back in line with what the fed is saying of 50 basis points between now and the end of the year, a hundred next year. Does that guarantee that either of them are right? It doesn't because those dot plots get revised every three months. They're rarely consistent every time they come out and they're rarely correct. And that's not an indictment on the fed. It's tells you how difficult it is to project an economy as, as large as the U S and same thing for people who are investing in fed funds futures. They've got a good idea, but they have a track record over the last two, three years of front running and saying, we're going to see these aggressive cuts that don't actually materialize. Well, I think that's important to note right there. I was actually going to say that is, is the one thing the fed is trying to prevent is a front running of, of what they're saying, right? So if the fed comes out and says, Hey, this is our expectation, this is what we're going to do. Well, what happens is the market typically goes ahead. And like we said, it, they bake it into the cake. The market reacts. People start spending money, start borrowing money because they believe that the cost of money is going to get cheaper as interest rates go down. The fed doesn't want that because if that happens, guess what? People start borrowing money. People start spending money, especially when it comes to businesses. Guess what happens? Inflation, you get some of these things that they've been trying to moderate over the last couple of years or kill to some degree inflation being one of them that they don't want that. So is it, is it a possibility that a Powell is coming out and backing off a little bit to let the market breathe a little bit, not to allow that front running to continue to take place. Or is he truly, you know, saying we, we, we don't know what's going to happen yet because the data isn't in line. And I think it's kind of the what if, and if you're somebody out there in the market right now, what I will tell you is trying to predict these things. Josh and I look at them every day and we have our own predictions and sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't, but the reality is you're not always going to be right. And so that's coming from two professionals. So if you're out there and you're thinking, well, I'm going to wait or I'm going to do this because this is going to happen, take it with a grain of salt and, and just make sure you're making educational guesses, educational choices when you're, when you're doing this stuff and not solely sticking to, this is what I'm going to do because this is going to happen. Because when you do, you end up, uh, you know, being surprised more often than not. Or, or better yet, Jeb, the, make sure you're asking yourself this question. Say you've educated yourself, you've listened to us, you've read 50 articles, you've been everywhere over the internet and you think you have a handle on this and you come to a conclusion, ask yourself, is that my conclusion because I need it to be that way or I really want it to be that way? Or is that what I really took from that information? Because at the, at the end of the day, as a mortgage professional, people go, Oh, you guys always want lower interest rates to a degree, but really low interest rates are a sign of an unhealthy economy. So we don't want ultra low, but we want affordability high. So lots of people can get mortgages and we do well in our business. But you always got to ask yourself, do I really think this is where the data is headed or do I really want the data to be headed that way? And that's for all of us in any walk of life. I mean, it's football season. Many of us play fantasy football. Do you really think that or is that what you want or need to have happen? Because we all are biased and we all are good at sort of misleading ourselves or taking ourselves down the path that we want or need data to go to. So my gut feeling is that the economy is not as robust as some of this data indicates as the fed would like. The fed is very, very hopeful that we're going to have this proverbial soft landing where they don't ever see a recession. They can have one of the most aggressive hiking cycles in their history without taking us into a recession. If you look at some of the higher frequency data. So last week, Jeb was all about jobs. We got jolts early in the week and people kind of freaked out and said, Oh my God, there's 300,000 additional job openings. But the more important data, the quit rates and the higher rates are down and trending like straight line down. Um, the challenger jobs report came out last week. Also, uh, private data, not government data, um, really weak in the internals. So it doesn't jive with what we're seeing. So mixed messages, right? Some things saying strong, some things saying weak. And so much of what we're looking at is, is telling us. But if you look at some of the more high frequency data, some of the underlying fundamentals, even in a strong headline, what gets reported in the news, you see underlying data in there that goes, Ooh, this isn't as robust or as strong as what we think that jobs report from last Friday, Jeb, the majority of the jobs were among 16 to 21 year olds. I don't know about you, but most 16 to 21 year olds are going back to school last month. They're not going out and getting a job. They're quitting the job that they had through the summer. So things just don't add up now. That's not conspiracy theory or saying that they're cooking the books. It just says that doesn't jive with what we all know to be happening out in the real world. So when we look at that, I do expect and believe that the downtrend in rates will happen. Do we get 150 basis points of fed cuts over the next year? I don't know. It could be slower and longer than what we expect. We've talked on the show a bunch here, Jeb, that using history as our guide, not fed projections, not futures markets projections, but history is our guide. The last eight cutting cycles prior to the first cut, we get 140 basis points of improvements in the 10 year, which also is closely mirrored by mortgages. Then after the first cut, we get 150 basis points more. Now, sometimes that's a hundred, sometimes it's 180, but it's still a significant decrease in rates. So is this increase that we've seen since the fed meeting and cut is that increase tell us, Ooh, this time's different. It doesn't because of those eight bed cutting cycles back to the 1980s, four of them had three, four, six, eight weeks of increasing rates following that meeting. Because again, as you said, by the rumor, sell the fact, you know, a lot of movement into those meetings and now they're waiting for additional data. I don't think the fed's crazy. I don't think they were wrong to cut 50 basis points. I don't think they were wrong to project another 150 basis points of cuts in the next 15 months. I think it's just taking longer and we're getting a lot of mixed messages and I don't think we're going to get some horrific economy where we just hit a wall and everything is, is, is bad. Like 2008 we, we hit a wall and it got really bad really fast. I could be wrong, but I don't expect that to be coming. So it's reasonable that we could have a long, slow grind lower in interest rates. But that expectation if we were to get another 150 basis points, which is average, sometimes better, sometimes worse. We at that fed meeting, it was a, what were about three 75, three 74 at the fed meeting. So it takes you down to about two 25 if you get that. So maybe it's two 50, maybe it's two, but, and people will say, Jeff, well, that's crazy. Why would, why would 10 year treasury yields go that low? I mean, you only get them that low when you see QE where the government is buying treasuries, where they're buying mortgage backed securities. That's not true. In 2019, the fed wasn't buying anything, but we had a 10 year treasury way under 2%. So the economy was weakening. We saw the 10 year way under that the fed was slowly coming out of their small hiking cycle that they had implemented in 2018. So two to two to five is not a crazy call. So what does that mean for mortgage rates? We talk a lot about spreads here over the last few weeks as rates were improving, those spreads were narrowing. They had peaked up over 3%. We had seen at the best levels over the last few weeks, just under 2.3, but even that that's a historically high spread over time. The majority of the time, the last 40 years, we've been somewhere between a spread of 1.7 to 2% above the 10 year treasury tells you what that going mortgage rate is. So let's say we don't even get to the low end of that. We just get to the very high end. If you have a two to five treasury, 10 year treasury, and you have a 2% margin on that, let's say it's two and a quarter. It doesn't even really improve from here. Still get you a four and a half percent interest rate. Now should anyone be holding out for that or waiting? I'll do something when that happens. There is no guarantee. That's what history tells us. That jives with what the futures market and the dot plots from the fed are telling us, but there is no crystal ball. That is the most likely thing to happen next. But does that mean it's 70, 30? Is it 60, 40? Is it 55, 45? It's more likely to happen than not, but it's far from guaranteed. Well, yeah. And it's, it's a difficult conversation to have Josh, because, you know, we don't want to sit here and say that it's going to be six months, a year from now, whatever. But the reality is I do think interest rates will continue to trend down. Now are we higher for longer? That's something that we discussed a couple of weeks ago, you know? Um, uh, I was going to say Bernanke. He hasn't been in the picture in a long time. I don't know where we're, where we're, we're going to make them all up. Um, and the best part is I wasn't even thinking of a fed chair. I was thinking of a Lauren Shoon. Uh, but anyhow, so chief economists for the national association of realtors came out recently and said that he believes that rates are essentially going to stay in this range. Like the 6% range is kind of the new norm. So with that said, Josh, is it possible? Like you kind of addressed it a minute ago. Is it possible that we kind of float in this six to six and a half percent range for an extended period of time for six months, a year? Is this quote unquote the new norm for, for the time being? It's possible. It's possible. I believe we will see some more weakening in the data between now and the end of the year. Um, but it's certainly possible. We have been, um, I wouldn't, I want to say we've been wrong. Everyone who follows and talks about what their expectations are has been off has been misled. There's been kind of got head fakes from the data over the last two years. So I don't know that there's anyone out there telling you with strength and confidence in their opinion, this is what's going to happen in the next three, six, nine, 12 months. Um, the trend should continue to be in our favor. But after we saw this huge improvement, it's reasonable to have given some back and it's reasonable for people to kind of panic and go, did I miss the boat? When you see a rather quick and sharp reversal like we have in the last week. Yeah. And the answer is, I don't think you've missed the boat. I think the boat is just a little bit further offshore. It's still coming to shore. Just going to take a little bit longer to get there. Um, what I will say, uh, while we're kind of talking about this, anybody talking about rates is probably either in the market to buy a house or refinance. So if you're on the, you know, in the, in the refinance market, um, you know, if, if you miss that boat, what I would suggest is talking to a lender. If you haven't got your lender already talk to Josh here, there's a referral link in the, in the description of this video where you can actually get in touch with us, but get on somebody's list, right? So that when rates do go lower, somebody can just reach out to you. You don't have to follow it daily. Like you shouldn't be looking at your house price daily. You probably shouldn't be looking at interest rates daily either. Um, just continue to live your life. Let somebody else do their job and reach out to you when there's an opportunity there on that, on that side, right? The refinance side on the purchase side, what I will say is that the market's slowed down. If you're in the market right now to buy a house, the market's slower. Um, there are price points still moving. Um, it doesn't mean you're going to get a house 10% below the market value or even 5% below the market value. But what it does mean a little bit less competition out there, but things are sitting a little bit longer days on the market, a little bit longer. There's some markets, uh, where homes, you know, inventory has grown significantly. If you're in the market to buy a home, one of the best times to buy a home is when rates are a little bit higher. When the market's a little bit slower because people, there's a little bit more pressure on, on sellers to try to do things. And so it's a good time to negotiate a good time to get deals, assuming you can afford them. Assume it's the right time in your life. You got money in the bank, you got time, all of the things that we talk about. And then if there is an opportunity in the future, six months, a year down the road to refinance, then you take advantage of it. Kind of like what Josh said earlier, I bought last November. I've refinanced twice. Why did I buy in November of last year? Well, because if I didn't buy it, somebody else was going to buy it and it was the right time for me. I didn't like the price. I didn't like the timing in the market. I didn't like a lot of things. The reality is I know how this goes. I have a lot of regrets over 20 years of my life of looking at missed opportunities out there. And, um, at some point you just got to, you know, sack up if you will. Is that, can you say that on, on the show? Um, anyway, no, you, you gotta take advantage of them. So with that, you know, if we can be of assistance, reach out, you know, Josh is talking to a lot of people. I mean, there's 20 plus people that refinance, um, last month that, that did take advantage of it. So if you weren't part of that, you want to be a part of it, reach out. If you're looking to purchase, reach out. So with that, Josh, here's the, here's the thing I'll say with, with rates moving around, with this idea of, um, I'm going to buy when I'm ready and can afford and I'm comfortable with that payment. And I'm going to hope that I am dating that rate. It is really important that you work with someone that understands that and can guide you through that process and give you a strong idea of what does it cost to refinance in your market? Um, I just five minutes before we jumped on here to record, Jeb got a call from a listener that, uh, he's in Texas, $265,000 loan to be able to drop his rate from 8% to 6.375. Everything sounds awesome, right? No brainer. But we go through the numbers and his loan amount is going from 265 to 285. So some of that is just in a poorly structured loan. I'm not, not someone being screwed or taken advantage of a poorly structured loan. And then looking at the LA multiple things just, it didn't make sense. Didn't add up. And unfortunately, out of 50, 80, a hundred Ellie's that we've got to look at for folks over the last month, you look at them, more of them have crazy issues like that than not. Many of these situations, people didn't have someone say, would you like this or would you like this? They're just being told, here's what we got. And when you look at it, a difference in rate of a half percent may be better for you to have the higher interest rate and not add 10, 12, $15,000 to your loan amount because that is your hard earned equity. If you look at your amortization schedule, you might only be paying three or $400 a month towards principal. So in a year you're going to save, you're going to reduce that by 3,500, 4,000, $5,000. So just give away $15,000 because it sounds fun to skip a payment. You know, a half a payment, a one month payment, get your impounds back. Some people asking about skipping two payments for clients in California and skipping two payments, we're going to add $15,000 to your loan amount. We better make sure that you really want that. It doesn't, it doesn't just sound fun and easy. So big, bigger picture. It is a very important decision and it's not a sales call. It's not someone trying to sell you that I have the world's lowest interest rate. It's someone asking you the right questions and guiding you to make sure that it is getting structured optimally to meet your objectives today of a lower payment, but over the long haul of building equity in your home and getting to a better financial position. Well said Josh. So if you want to talk to Josh, reach out, use that referral link in the description of the video. What I will say is I don't believe you've missed your opportunity. That's where I'll end this. Your opportunity is not gone. It's, it's delayed a little bit, but that doesn't mean that when it presents itself next time, you're going to have forever to take advantage of it. So get your ducks in a row, talk to somebody now, get what you need to them so that when the opportunity arises, you're there, they have the documents, they can lock it. You can move on. And again, get on a list so that you can stay updated. But you know, that's how you buy right, borrow smart and build wealth. I mean, that's what we always talk about. You do that by preparing yourself, not by waiting until the last minute, not by trying to pick the top or the bottom in the market. It's not, not how it's done. So with that, we would love the opportunity to help reach out. If we can be of assistance until next time, adios amigos.