Godfather of Harlem: Forest Whitaker in Conversation with Whoopi Goldberg

Well, thank you. I am so glad to be here with you. This show is one of the great television experiences because, you know, people don't know a lot about Harlem and they don't know who's been there or what happened up there. They've only heard bits and pieces. And so this is a story about Harlem and a man who made his way through and did it the best he could. What was it about this that made you say, yeah, I think I'm gonna, I think I wanna do this? Well, I mean, originally Marquand Smith and Jim Hutchinson, they came to me to do something about Buffy Johnson. And I was trying to figure out an angle that would work for me to like wanna do it. You know, he had a long prolific career. And when the writers, when Chris, Cotto and everyone who became involved, it was an opportunity to look at the civil rights movement, look at the crime that was going on during the time and try to like make some sense of it and make people be able to talk about it, to allow it. So I thought, at first I was only gonna produce it, but I decided later that it'd be best for me to act in it as well. Yeah, yeah, because I think as people who watch television or watch movies, we've seen lots of crime bosses and they never ever look like us. They never do. And I guess that's a good thing, but, you know. I like, I mean. You wanted more criminals. I did, I did. You know, because I loved the Godfather when Marlon did it. And I loved when Cagney said, you know, top of the world, ma. And I just, and I realized when I was a kid that I never saw any black gangsters. They were like mythic characters and figures. In the neighborhood, they were like bigger than life. Yeah. And I think you wanted to see yourself reflected in that. And that sort of power. Yeah. People like were making their own choices and doing what they felt was right for themselves. Yeah. And trying to make it work for the neighborhood, trying to, you know, trying to get through life. And so for me, when I'm watching, I'm just fascinated because every player is there. You know? Yeah, it's amazing in the ensemble. The actors are just through the roof. It's beautiful. I mean, I remember when we were like auditioning in the beginning, when we were first doing it, and I got a chance to read with them. And I was just blown away at the talent that was coming through. And now that these, like Hilf & Eschen, all of them, like every last one of them, is like bringing to the table something powerful and something strong. Yeah. And hopefully the storylines are like bringing you into everybody's lives in a way that allows you to really see the power and strength. I think also what it does is it makes a viewer go, damn, what would I do? Like there's a point that's coming, I'm not gonna blow it for you, but it's, you know, where he ends up with a piece of information and makes a decision because he's in need. He has a need and he has to do something. And I'm thinking to myself, damn, well, I would have done that too. I would have. You mean robbing the bank? Yeah. You gotta remember that he also is a philanthropist and he did great things for the community. Just giving some grace to like wanting more criminals and more guns. Well, there is all that too, but I mean, but there's, you know, there is such humanity in him. And in his guys, because I've seen, you know, everybody wants it to go well. They want it to work with the Italians, but the Italians just kind of not, they're not in there yet. And so you're trying to make it happen right and you're trying not to be a, you know, a bonehead about it. I mean, really, like Kobe Johnson wanted to go to law school. You know, he was trying to pursue the American dream in the way that he could see it. And for him, there weren't that many roads open. Yeah. So he went into the community and like started to run things and became the gangster that everybody's talking about. But a person that is also trying to understand community. Yeah. And try to bring some positive back to the community, even though he was taken as well. Yeah. One of my favorite lines that I heard you say was they're thinking of Harlem like a plantation, you know, and I'm the house in, you know. It's extraordinary because regardless of who you are, you know exactly what he's talking about when he's saying this. And that's the beauty. I think that what was really kind of sad about this scene, I think the writers did a great job on it, was that he was saying that if he stays in this space, he can be treated with respect. But anywhere in time he stuts his toe out, then he can be humiliated, treated like a child or a boy, hurt, harmed, annihilated, really. You know, and that was something that he was trying to explain to this guy. He said, it's not that I don't want to make a deal with you. What you offered is good. But if I give up this, this is what I have. Yeah, yeah. And that last line, when you've done what you needed to do, and you said, this is mine. It was just like, tell him, tell him again. You know, because I know you're coming back with other drugs, but tell him where he's coming to now. That's the, I talked to the television. You're like, get out, get out. Yeah, and can we just take a moment and talk about the beauty of the woman who plays your wife? Oh my God. You know, she's fabulous. The woman who plays your daughter. Internet. Oh. Beautiful. Just the women, the women. There is not a, oh, I can't do anything woman in here anywhere. No. Like at all. I mean, Ilfenes was kind of the conciliaria. She was advising me on what to do. And really like trying to guide my life towards a better life. You know, she, but yet she still had her things that were important to her, like politics. She was like following back and rioting in the streets and protesting and marching. I think we tried to do that with all the women in the, including Lucy Frye even, on the mobster side. Yep. Oh my God, she is delicious as well. I mean, the women are spectacular. I mean, it's really nice to see. Because it's not about seeing my breast or it's not about seeing my backside. It's about who I am. And I love it, you know. So the Godfather of Harlem is set during a tumultuous time in American history with civil rights movement and the Vietnam War in full swing. How much attention to this detail are y'all paying? Because it's, I find it, I find myself remembering things I'd forgotten. The thing that made me want to be in the project was that it was going to be a mirror to what's happening in society. And it starts off quickly because you can deal with the drugs, the opiate crisis that was going on. And then the civil rights movement, the protests that we've had in the streets here. In the show, a guy named, well his name's James. He was in, they shot him, the police killed him. It started the Harlem riots. And it was a reflection of what that does to the community, what that does to the soul, you know. And that's what we were trying to do. So all of those different, the police brutality which we see in the food store riot. Right. All of these things were happening during that time but were still happening here. Yeah. And it's an opportunity to talk about it and even make some decisions about what you want to do, how you want to deal with that kind of thing. When you are able to show the parallel between the two times, sometimes it gets very scary because it's like nothing has changed. You just kind of look and you go, have we already done this? You know, and it makes you wonder, where are the Adam Clayton Powells of today? Yeah. You know, where is Malcolm? You know, where are those voices, those leaders? It's hard, you know. I feel like there has to be something that are growing up because to defeat the kind of problems and conflicts we're having, there has to be something growing up to the surface. And I thought that Cory Booker when he was at, you know, in Jersey as the mayor, he had some plans. I think it would be good to see some of these plans move forward. Yeah. And it's hard to find people. If you like want to find somebody who stands just for peace, who would you point to? I'm gonna find somebody who's gonna stand and move 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 people on a march. Who do you trust? That's what's really difficult. It is difficult. And it's not discouraging, but it does make you wonder, you know, is it us? Because we're so wrapped up in everything we're doing with our machines and our very busy lives, are we glossing over a lot of stuff? Is that why these things have come back to haunt us? I mean, I think the notion of social leadership where everybody's leading hasn't really worked out. To be able to find the individual that was marching in front, even though everybody was marching behind, so that we can know where to hold ourselves. So what happens is we have the protests, protests happen, and then there's not the leadership to carry it forward properly, or to like move to the next level, and the next level after that. And I'm sure there's gotta be leaders that I don't know of that are coming out. They could help walk us towards freedom. One would hope. I got my fingers crossed. Gotta think. Yeah. You gotta believe it, you know. People, you know, for a long time I thought, well, maybe people just aren't angry enough. And then I saw people are getting angry. They're starting to wake up and go, hey, this is not okay, you know. And we're seeing crazy stuff happening throughout the country, which is shockingly being reflected on the show. Yeah, a divided country. Divided country. A country that's participants are like working together, trying to harm each other. It's a strange time. Well, it's a lazy time. It makes sense, you know, because we're a bit lazy to go and do the work. It's hard work, and it takes a long time, and it's not pretty, you know. Nobody cares if your butt is big when you're doing the tough work. Nobody, you know, nobody cares about it. None of that matters, you know. But one of the things I wanna talk to you about also, because you're a huge philanthropist, and I went, yeah, yeah. Please tell everybody about what you've been doing. As much a philanthropist as someone who runs an NGO or organization that deals with conflict. In my case, we started 10 years ago. It deals with conflict and development in different places. We work in all areas of conflict where there are youth and women, and we can train them to be able to bring up their communities and become leaders. And then we like finance businesses around that. We've been doing that for, like I say, 10 years. It's probably touched about a million and a half people. It's continuing to grow. We're in eight countries right now. Yeah, yeah. And the young people he works with are so, when you hear them speak, you're just like, oh, there you are. You know, we're talking about where are, he's met many of them. He's set them on their path to do better work. And so if you want to know more, where can people find out more? Wpdi.org, it's the Whittaker Peace and Development Initiative. Just wanna make sure we got that out there. Oops, oops, oops, oops. Bastards. Put the wrong cards down? I might have. I don't see you move that many blue cards, though. Well, there, there. You're not. But I, you know. Whoopi plays Willa on the show. And she's excellent. We love it when she comes because she brings something to the table that's special. Listen, I am so excited to be part of this cast. You don't understand, you know. It's, look, it's nice when people want you. You know, it is. It's nice when people are not mad at you. I get to go and I get to work with Forrest, you know, because in reality, you know, they would never put us in a movie together. Because apparently they can only have one person of color in the movie at a time, you know. But maybe that will change because of this. But, well, shit. So I'll ask you this. Do you, do you ever worry about the Godfather follow? Different types of worry, I guess, sometimes I have. It doesn't mean I want to make sure that the message is clear, people understand, it doesn't incite or make things worse. And then as an artist, like when I play a character, I kind of, I go deep inside it. And this is the character that's really difficult to hold on to. I had to like, he had to grow from the first season. It was so intense and harsh. And, but he needed to do that because he just got out of prison. And like, it's this slow opening. But it's been a challenge, really hard challenge. Do you think that might be so with the other actors as well? Because I watched several seasons of the three, come on now, Will. My mouth fails sometimes. But the question I'm getting to is, is it hard for the white actors? Because they really have to go at Blackfeet. Was that a discussion? I mean, I love Vincent D'Onofrio. I've worked with him and he's fabulous. But I know some of what he's done with this character has been tough to get out of his mouth. I mean, he had like, seen experiences and stuff from earlier in his life. I think people are, the artists are hoping that they're bringing out the story. So in that way, they're champions of like, making people understand the conflicts and the pains. They're like so committed and so really powerful. Yeah. And I think that without that, there is no show. Well, I tell you, it is a testament to this show that all these people are here on a Friday night. She have some for me? Oh, they're on their way. Okay. They're not here yet. Okay. So I have to ask you another question. I can't even do the other thing. What are you working on? Are you writing? No, I'm gonna go off and do a Star Wars. Nice. The show. I've been doing it for the season before. So I gotta go do that and I'm gonna do a few other films, I guess. And right now, when I finish here, I'm gonna go to do that and then I'm gonna go to visit some of our new sites. We have a site where the immigrants are having issues in Paris. Right. I'm gonna go and open up a center there. Then I'm gonna go back into South Sudan and Uganda. And I'm gonna have to go to the basketball tournaments in Kigali. Wow. NBA basketball, ball, Black Africa League. Yeah. Basketball. So I'm gonna be doing that. Yeah, I'm just going home. You know, you're promoting peace on earth. I'm just futzing around. But it must feel, oh, thank you. Gosh. So here's a question with a statement, I think. I love the episode this season where the young artist created a portrait that showed you as both an angel and a devil. Can you talk a bit about how you navigated balancing these two sides when playing Bumpy? No name. I mean, the script's written, the character's, like he has a gentleness towards his wife and his family and he loves them. So Finesse's character, I mean, Mamie, is trying to get me to see that we don't have to be criminals to succeed. And that I'm not this evil person. Well, this kid we hired paints this painting and it totally destroys me because I've been trying to do the right thing. This is the way he looks at me, you know? And I'm somebody who would burn him in hell, you know? And I think that's one of the turning points because in this episode, he's like slowly trying to find a higher ground, to become a better person. He's being encouraged, he stops selling heroin, you know, and then this happens. And then he's forced to have to, it's like he's just trying to walk away from even some of the violence and they're forcing him, they're like not allowing him to succeed, not allowing his stuff to go through. And he has to revert back to what he knows. Or he doesn't have to, but he does. But he does, yeah. I mean, it's what Michael Corleone says, right? I keep trying to get out, they keep pulling me back. And you know, what do you do when that's become, your go-to, it's very hard to stop a habit. Yeah, that's what Mimi says. She says like, she talks about the drug dealer being addicted to selling drugs. And I think Gopi suffers a little bit from that. It's like the combination of her, but also the moral stature of Malcolm, that kind of starts trying to guide him to higher ground. Yeah. Remarkable. So here's another. It's been interesting to see Bumpy's relationship with Malcolm, where he's protecting him even at the sacrifice of his own business. What can you tell us about that relationship? Well, I mean, Malcolm was Detroit Red, you know. During that time, he was a criminal. And they knew each other then. He converted and he was in prison and started to change his outlook. Became the man that we know him as now. But the relationship had started earlier when he was a criminal. Continued itself forward when he was out and preaching the gospel, you know. So I think their relationship just continued to blossom. Malcolm, I think in the show, says something like, trying to get him to see that when he gets organized, you know, there's nothing that they can't do. And he sees that in him. But he also starts to, he also recognizes that he can't align himself with it because it's too harmful to the community. And the pretense that goes on with that and allows them to make Malcolm the problem when it's the thinking that might be at issue there. Not Malcolm's thinking, but thinking, which causes his death, you know. What was the most surprising thing you learned about the situation or characters or events during the show? During the show's making, during the making of the show. I think that's what they're saying. I mean, I think you gain a lot of respect for the artists that are working on these dramas, these hour-long dramas, because they're really difficult to do, to pull off, and you kind of give yourself over to it. I mean, I'd wake up in the morning and I'd be looking at lines in the car, looking at lines when I get there, looking at lines when I go home. It was like constantly, constantly just trying to like, because there's only a certain amount of work that I could accept for myself. And artists that are, like there's a lot of artists that are able to show that really clearly, and the work is great. For me, it took a lot of work, and that's something I learned about how difficult it was gonna be. It was difficult, and how difficult, like I said earlier, to carry that kind of thing where you're in this cycle. If you're in this cycle of energy, and it never stops, then you're carrying it with you all the time. All the time. It's changing now, because he's becoming more free. Yeah. He's becoming more open to the possibility of being able to do something right. Yeah. Greetings, Ms. Goldberg. Mr. Whitaker, my name is Amaryllis Green. All right, look. You know I just got this eye, right? Amaryllis, forgive me. Her name is Amaryllis Green. And her question is, what you know now. Amaryllis, where are you? Okay, do me a favor, babe, because I'm, do you remember your question? Now she's gone. What would you tell your, yeah, I got you now. Well, it took a minute. She asked a whole bunch of other questions before she asked questions she wanted the answer to. And that question is, knowing what you know now, what would you tell your 12-year-old self? Is that right? All right. And you're welcome. Every day, look in the mirror and say, I love you, I love you, I love you. I do that. I do. If I don't tell me, who's gonna tell me? You know? Now, I'm gonna ask Chris, our executive producer, to come up here. All right. Where are you, Chris? Come on, just shot. Woo! No, you were waiting in the sidelines here. What, are they gonna call my name? Are they gonna call my name? Hey, Chris. Thank you, Forrest. Thanks, everybody, for coming. Excuse me, I'm gonna put on my, there we go. Whoopi, thank you so much for joining us on this show. It is an immense pleasure to have your talent. It's my pleasure to be with y'all, really, really. And, Forrest, you and the other cast have fulfilled our dreams. There's no better way for writers to sit in a room alone so many hours a day and have the words spoken by actors of your skill and also the rest of the people in the cast. I'm gonna forget a couple of names here, but, and if I do forget, please forgive me, just look at the credits that open the show, but we have Ilfenesh Hedera, Antoinette Crowe-Legacy, Michael Raymond James, Vincent D'Onofrio, the late Paul Sorvino, bless his heart. We have Lucy Frye, and I'm forgetting others, so please forgive me. And Grace Porter, right there. Thank you, Grace. And, of course, Jason Carvel as Malcolm X, and Nigel Thatch played Malcolm in our first two seasons. I also want to say thank you to the incredible crew led by our producer, Ray Quinlan, and some, I mean, this is 250 people who work really hard to give us this beautiful presentation of 1960s Harlem. A few other crew members I've seen in the audience are Jack Donnelly, Jay Feather, Sarah Lau, Tony Gentry, Andy Monsheen, and Professor James Small, who is our Malcolm consultant. Now, the show was initially created when my very good college friend, Paul Eckstein, told me that his grandmother had been sent to secretarial school by Bumpy Johnson in Harlem, and Paul was dissatisfied that Michael Corleone, the fictional, was a white representation of a godfather, and that Tony Montana, also fictional, was a Latin godfather, both played by Al Pacino, who's a white guy, and Paul encouraged me to explore the life and times of Bumpy Johnson, a real-life human being, who was a gangster, an intellect, a philanthropist, a poet, and many other things in Harlem. So we did a movie in the 90s called Hoodlum, which starred Lawrence Fishbone, and 20 years later, we were approached by the producer Marquand Smith and also James Atchison, who asked us if we were interested in telling the story of Bumpy Johnson in the 60s. Now, at first, we weren't sure that there was a fresh angle until we remembered that Bumpy Johnson and Malcolm X were very close friends, and so we had our angle. It was the collision of crime and civil rights, because when groups are second-class citizen groups, crime has no barrier to entry, and that little fact is true for Italian immigration, German immigration, Irish immigration, and also African immigration, with one major difference. The African immigration was forced, not voluntary. But we felt that this angle gave us a platform to explore contemporary issues through the prism of the past, and to explore how things have changed, like, for example, we've had a black president from the 60s till today, and perhaps more importantly, how many things haven't changed. So in the first season, Bumpy returned from 11 years in Alcatraz to retake Harlem from the Italians who had fundamentally ran the drug trade in his absence. In the second season, Bumpy tried to take control of the French Connection, which is the prime source of heroin from Marseilles, France. The third season brings into focus the Cuban Connection, as Cuban gangster Jose Battle brings Spanish Harlem into the mix. Now, the final episode, well, first of all, we like to call the show the education of Bumpy Johnson, as will be alluded to with that portrait of Bumpy as half-devil, half-angel, which is to say that over time, over the course of the six, seven, eight, 15 years that Forrest is gonna be willing to do the show, what we watch is the slow pokes at his conscience as he starts to understand that the heroin trade, which provides sustenance for his family, and his excuse for it is, hey, I might as well sell it because junkies are gonna use it, and at least I keep the money in the community. Well, that view gets challenged slowly but surely over time and we will watch that evolution as we continue the series. Now, this final season tracks us through the last six months of Malcolm X's life as he slowly but surely accepts that he's a marked man from many quarters, not only the Nation of Islam, which he has exited, but also the NYPD, the FBI, and also the CIA. It's a journey for Malcolm of acceptance and bravery and ultimately a final sacrifice. Our staff brings together black writers, Latin writers, and white writers to create with love, honor, and respect a portrait of this long-ago past, and in particular, this man whose words still affect us to this day. We hope you enjoy this final episode. Thank you. Thank you all very much.