Real Estate Rules for Beginners - Robert Kiyosaki, Kim Kiyosaki, ‪@GrantCardone‬

This is the rich dad radio show, the good news and bad news about money. Here's Robert Kiyosaki. Robert Kiyosaki, the rich dad radio show, the good news and bad news about money. And today Kim's in South Carolina. I'm in Scottsdale, Arizona, and we're very special guest today. Grant Cardone, CEO of Cardone Capital. He's a national speaker, an entrepreneur, but he is a, he's tearing up the real estate market. Anyway, welcome Grant. Kim, anything you want to say to Grant before we start? Thank you for being on the show, Grant. You know, these times right now, all I keep hearing is, Oh, price of real estate is so expensive. It's so expensive. And like in Arizona, well, yes, it's expensive, but relative to other parts of the country, not so much. So really interested to get your take on today. What's going on in the real, you're that real estate expert. What's going on in the world. And we've got a lot of subjects and ground to cover. So excited to have you on the program. Well, and, and just, I'm a huge fan of both you guys. So, uh, can you get it out of the shot guys? This guy does this every time. I think he wants my attention. So Cardone show, not your show. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, um, look, I, I think that I've been buying real estate for 25 years. I think we're in a super cycle that, that, that has never ever happened before in our lifetimes. And I, Robert's laughing right now. He's like, Oh, that's too optimistic. But, but truly I do. I've been talking about this country would become a renter nation. I've been talking about that for 10 years. It's happening right now. Uh, also I do not think real estate is overpriced today. I think cap rates will compress to 50% of what they are today. And I think that people are underestimating the 3 trillion, $4 trillion has been printed. If you look at the amount of money that has been printed and compare that to the amount of, uh, appreciation of real values in real estate, the, the, the property values have not kept up with the printing press and we would have a long way to go before we're over. Uh, we're, we're in any kind of bubble territory. Last thing is the people that are buying real estate today are completely different than 2010. This has nothing, not even similar. These are wealthy people buying second and third homes. Uh, this is not a first time buyer. Uh, people are paying either cash or putting 50% down in many cases, they're putting down more than they've ever put down. And, and, um, and you also have investors that are buying real estate from end users. They're lining up all over Scottsdale. There's 25 offers. This, this story is told every day. There's 25 offers on a single family home. Everything's going over asking. And the guy that gets the deal is an investor that has no intention of living there, but it's going to Airbnb the property. Okay. So, and the other thing is that grants in Miami was the hottest property market around, uh, Kim and I are in Scottsdale and we just closed in a property in Austin, Texas, which is the hottest of hottest. Yes. The point we want to get to here is why people are moving. First of all, the migrations. And, uh, if I could shamelessly plug my book here, it's called the capitalist manifesto. It comes out, you know, it's not really a real estate book, but it's about why communism is taking over America and it's taking over cities like San Francisco. So it's not about San Francisco, but one of the reasons people are leaving South San Francisco is I have a chart of human feces. Where are people leaving more human crap on the streets and people are leaving in trucks. And it's kind of interesting market, you know, that, that would happen to Kim and I had to close a property in Portland. Get out of it because the tenants couldn't get to it because, because there were so many homeless stacked up around it. Is that correct, Kim? Yeah. And what would, this was surprising grant. So I called a broker thinking, you know, the market's going to be pretty depressed up there because of all the riots and the homelessness and everything that's been going on. Um, and I said, so we'll probably just take a, you know, take a loss on this property. I'm okay with that. Cause we just need, we would just want to get out. And she goes, are you kidding me? This market is on fire. Yep. People aren't necessarily moving into Portland. They're not moving into Portland from other States, but people in Portland are buying and moving up. And so we didn't even have it listed. It wasn't even listed in. It's sold for, uh, actually we raised the price because, um, we had so many offers and so much interest. We raised the price and sold it without even listing it. But Portland, Oregon, but grant our, our tenants were complaining because they couldn't get to the property. We've been very selective, uh, about where we're buying. I mean, we're buying mostly blue States. We are in Austin. Um, you know, I've been wrong about Austin so many times, like I'm like, it can't get any more expensive. And it's gonna is it's because we, we don't understand the amount of pressure being the amount of money and people moving to places that, that, that protect them from what they're leaving, you know, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, everybody knows this story, but they're not betting on the story. And I would just suggest to people, this story is not going to change. The more mandates they put out, the more crazy politics, um, that, that people make, the more they pressure landlords, the more eviction moratoriums they do. All that stuff is pushing people and money out of New York, New Jersey, California, uh, Oregon, Seattle, Oregon, any, anywhere, anywhere the politics are crazy, regardless of what side you vote on. Uh, if they're not protecting the money and the people investing money, that money will move. And it's moving to Arizona, Utah, Nevada, uh, Florida, the Carolinas, like it's just going to explode down here. Texas is on fire. Thank you. So the other thing we're talking about here is this, uh, you raise a lot of money and I meet so many people. So I'd like to buy a real estate, but I don't have any money. You idiot. The reason you buy a real estate, you're supposed to use other people's money. And in comments, you want to say about that, Kim, I mean, do we, there's plenty of money out there. You want to use a little of your own money as possible, right? Yeah. And I'd like to, I'd like to hear Grant's take on this and how you started with raising money. And because I hear a lot of people, they think, Oh, I'll just, I'll just raise some money. And, and, but without the experience, without the knowledge, um, you gotta, you gotta take care of other people's money much more carefully than you take care of your own. And that's a huge responsibility to raise capital. So how, how did you start? So, so the only other people's money I ever used was the bank's money. Like I, you know, the idea of me going bar money from my brother, my sister, my uncle, much less the public was so terrifying to me because, um, you know, I knew that my money wasn't at risk when I was buying multifamily to me, like I'm not a gambler. I was in Vegas this past weekend and I'm betting $50 at a table. Everybody, the other two guys are about 2000, 5,000. And I know I'm worth, I'm worth a hundred times, but what both these guys are worth together. And they're looking at me laughing like I'm a coward. And one guy says to me, he's like, man, I can't believe you're only betting 50 bucks. Like he knows I got 12,000 apartments. We have $4 billion worth of real estate. And he's like, why are you only betting 50 bucks? I said, cause I don't gamble. And I don't gamble with my money or your money. And so when I was buying multifamily, I didn't want to have to explain it to people. I've been a pro, like crazy multifamily guy for 20 years, believing in it and probably before it was really what it is today. And the first four or 5,000 units I bought with my own money, I basically used my other businesses to fund that. I went out and worked hard and grabbed money and bought them. And then about six years ago, five years ago, I guess, my wife said you need to let the people that follow you invest with you, along with you. And so we started looking at it. And we, we raised $6 million for a deal in about 60 minutes. And I was like, wow, that was easy. And it's not family funds. Like, like you got, I'm not going to wealthy people. I'm not getting money from Blackstone or a family fund. I'm getting money from people that actually need the opportunity and can't buy these big deals. They can't find the big deals. They can't, they really, really Americans. And you guys know this really, most Americans get the leftovers in real estate. They get the single family house, you know, that we call a dream that you guys both know is a liability, not an asset. They're hoodwinked and tricked into believing it's some big asset that they have when it's not, which I'd love to talk about that, because that makes people's heads pop off. And the second thing they get is the duplexes and the four plexes, most of which all went back in 2010 to the banks, the stuff that we're buying. These are massive properties, 80 million, $150 million. This deal I had up behind me a few minutes ago was $230 million. This is Blackstone quality, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan quality stuff. And we're raising money from accredited and non-accredited using Instagram, Facebook. This was not even allowed years ago. No brokers, no middlemen. Merrill Lynch can't call me. Fidelity can't call me. Family funds are not allowed to call me and give me money. It's like you guys could call me and say, Hey, I want to put a million in your deal. Or we just opened this up a thousand. And we're literally changing the way people can invest in multifamily. Cause Kim, I agree with you that to think that somebody is going to go raise two or three or $4 million on their first deal, probably not real. And they probably shouldn't do it. So let me say this much as the people, the actual, the easy part is raising the money. The hard part is managing the property. And I think that's what people forget because in the, when, when Kim and I first started out, the managing a property is the biggest business of all, but it also, if you're just a mom and pop, you can only manage so many properties. So what is the secret to going from a small investor to managing, let's say 150 units at a time? Well, I would say, first of all, just skip the small stuff and go buy big deals. Even if you have to collaborate with somebody else to do the big deals, big deals always work better than little deals. Multifamily, as you guys know, it's all about math. It's multifamily. It's not one unit or two units. But you make a good point, Grant, because if you're going to start, I mean, so I started with a little two bedroom, one bath house, cause that's how I, that's how I learned. But if you're going to start with a big deal, then I would say you want to definitely have an experienced, knowledgeable partner in that. Yeah. You're not going to get the deal. You're not going to get in this market. You're not going to get the deal if you don't have the experience. Yeah, exactly. So, so like even, even in the 26 unit and 30 unit and 80 unit deals, you're going to pay a premium so heavy today to get that deal. This is so competitive now. There's so much money chasing this yield. No, that's not Grant. Grant, hang on one second. I'll be very clear with people. I don't recommend that at all. If you, if you cannot manage a property, you don't know the legals, the ins and outs, because you have a contract with your renter. And if you don't perform on your contract and your, and the, and also the renter tears your property up. So just say you can just go and buy a 150 unit apartment house. You can do that, but there's not many people who can't. My point here, everybody wants you to hear this with me. The raising of the money is the easy part, especially managing the property and making it turn a profit for the longterm. And also protecting the asset with the legal contracts is where people fall down. Yeah. And look, when everything's good, everything's good. But your COVID hits, you're going to find out if you're a manager or not. Well, we don't manage, we don't manage properties. Yeah. I don't either. Like I don't manage my properties, but somebody has got to manage the manager. And that's what, and that's what I'm saying is that's, in my opinion, it's easier to raise money today. Yeah. To say to somebody to buy, you know, a 400 unit apartment house and just manage it. I think they're going to, you know, the skip of the Titanic point of view, any comments on that, Kim? Well, I mean, that was our situation. So we, you know, managed our properties. We had onsite managers and we managed them, but I could only manage so many by myself. And then I, we couldn't buy any more because I couldn't, I didn't have the time. We still had, we had the company and all of this. So that's when we found our partner, Kenny McElroy. And, and he said to us, I said, can you manage our properties? And he's like, no, I only do 150 units or more. And so then we had to step up our game, but now we had property management experience, knowledgeable. He started in college managing properties and he's still doing that today. And now of course, developing and, and, um, acquiring. Yeah. So that's hard to be clear on our, our message here. A grant your message is probably different than ours, but it's to me is the management of the property and make an eternal profit is the hard part today. The raising the money is easy. There's a lot of financing for it. People are going to throw the money at you. Yeah. I don't know how he, I mean, I don't, I don't know that I'd say it's easy. We've raised $700 million. You still got to manage people, phone calls, you know, like it's not, I mean, when you say it's easy, it's not easy. Like we do it with no ads, Robert. No, I haven't spent any, I think I spent 50 grand in ads for 700 million, no brokers, no middlemen. I still got to get a message out. Right. So the hard part of real estate today for me is getting the deal. Yeah. I don't agree with that. It's even getting control of an asset. Like when I'm competing today, we're buying a deal in Fort Lauderdale is $230 million. Like who's going to buy that deal. It's a handful of names, AIG, Blackstone, JP Goldman. Like these are big monster trillion dollar companies, not billion dollar companies. And you know, the thing they can't do that I can do is they cannot write a check the day they look at the deal. They can write, they can write a check for the whole amount three weeks from now. I can't close with all cash in a quarter of a billion, but I can go hard with 2 million today. And they can't do that because of their, of their fiduciary responsibility. So these big guys that we're competing with today, like if you can't move fast, you're not going to get the asset as you know. Yeah. Grant, Grant, hang on. Not too many people are going to do what you do. Our audience wants to know how to get started right now. Okay. Wait, please be respectful to our audience. Okay. Any comments or Kim? Well, I was actually, my question to Grant was how did you get started? Cause you started nothing as we did. How did you get started? How'd you get into that whole real estate game? Yeah. I got started with one unit, like the same way, like, and I'm not being disrespectful to anybody. I'm telling your audience the bet. They're better off. They're better off partnering with somebody on a big deal than going, going one unit by yourself. Because the problem with one unit is when they move out, as you know, they're you're a hundred percent vacant and all of a sudden real estate starts to hit some new reality. So you would start with 500 units at a shot for us to get started with one unit. No, but, but are you recommending they partner with somebody on a 500 unit deal? I would at 1000%. Wow. Yeah. That's a different strategy because we're, we, we want to do that knowledge and the experience and the patient that goes with the hands-on management. But that's how, that's our philosophy. I would tell people, I would tell people the best thing for them. I don't think you have to go 500 units the first time, but 200 is a great number. And, uh, I would tell people the, the first thing they should do with real estate is invest in real estate to learn it. If you want to play the Bitcoin game, go and go buy some Bitcoin first, then start learning about it because you're not too many people out there learning and never actually make an investment. Okay. So, Hey, we got, we got, we got to go for a break. Look, I just want to bear my clear on this grant recommends buying a large unit at the start with, we do not. I agree with him. The hard part is finding a great deal, closing the great deal, financing it, but also then managing it. Because if you don't manage it well, that's when you lose a deal. So we come back with big going more into how you get started in real estate and this great migration going on throughout the world, where they're moving from. But even if they're moving from there, as Kim says, even in Portland, Oregon, where we had homeless sleeping outside of our unit and our tenants couldn't get to it, they still wanted to, the property is still held as value. So we'll be right back. Welcome back. Robert Kiyosaki, the rich dad radio show, the good news and bad news about money. This is the rich dad radio program. Anytime, anywhere on iTunes or Android and YouTube. And please leave us a review whenever you listen. And all of our programs are archived at rich dad radio.com. We archive them because we don't sell anything. We don't sell investments. And we just basically our education and information. And so be our friend, family member or associate who wants to learn more about real estate, go to richdadradio.com and replay this program. Our guest today is Grant Cardone, CEO of Cardone Capital, international speaker and entrepreneur. And he is the best selling author of the 10X rule. If you're not first, you're last as well as a sales trainer, speaker, and entrepreneur who has worked in real estate industry and auto industry. Grant is a real estate mogul has built into a $1.9 million portfolio of multifamily properties from scratch. And so I just want to be clear on here is that what he's saying is that Kim and I do not recommend yet. You should listen to him because realist, this is the big difference with real estate. It's not liquid. And liquidity is one of the biggest things you need to realize when you're investing. For most people, they should just buy a mutual fund, you know, and if it's or a stock or a bond or an ETF, the reason for that is because paper assets are liquid. You make a mistake. You can, you make a mistake in the morning and be out of it that night. You make a, you make a mistake with a piece of real estate and it's a really bad deal. You write that sucker down and where the mistakes just pile on, pile on, pile on, pile on. So in real estate is the most important thing as Grant says is how do you find it? How do you finance it? And how do you manage it? Those are the three pieces. If you make a mistake anywhere along those lines, you get crucified. So the word is liquidity. I wouldn't recommend starting with a 200 unit apartment house because you make a mistake. I don't care how smart you are. You'll still make a mistake. I think what we, what a lot of people don't understand is how do you, what is a good deal? What makes a good deal? What makes a bad deal? How do you manage it? How do you finance it? How do you manage it? How do you finance it? So one of my questions is like, for example, for us, when we're looking at property, we always want to go where their jobs, which is a little more tricky today than it used to be. But that's a criteria because if they aren't working, they can't pay rent. So I'd like to know from you, Grant, what, how do you tell a good deal? What's your criteria for a good deal? And what are the mistakes of a bad deal? Yeah. So, you know, thank you. And, and I just want to go back a second. Just, I would suggest that liquidity for people today is a problem. It is not a good thing for people to be liquid because then they end up losing money. They don't invest their money. They end up buying stuff. They don't need liquidity finds emergencies. Liquidity is an old wall street game so that they can convert money. I want to be illiquid, Robert. Personally, I want, I want my cash to be in something real that I cannot access. Grant, hang on. So saying how fast can you get in and out of a bad deal? That's all I care about. Oh, well, I don't want a bad deal. So this goes to Kim's question. Okay. If I'm extremely disciplined, jobs are very important. Location is so, so like we, we are, we are extremely disciplined on what markets we go to. And when we go to a market, Boston, Houston, Scottsdale, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, these are, these are pro business States, positive job migration. We buy real estate in locations. We pay a premium for our real estate to be in a location where our renter does not exceed 20% of their income. So we were buying like really great locations with strong job basis. We never over leverage a property and we're buying, we're buying as big as we can, as nice as we can. And I would recommend that for everyone. So are you, are you investing in high end properties? We've, we've done everything. We'll do anything from value add all the way to a trophy triple A. We've done them all. As long as that location will support it. Boca Raton, for instance, I bought 1970 stuff the same year, bought 2020 a product in the same market at the, in, in the same year. So, so are you, are you right now fishing for investors? No, we buy, I buy, I close these deals with my cash Robert. Okay. And then I open it up after it's closed to, to an investor base. We're open to non-accredited and accredited investors, a thousand to our average non-accredited does about 25,000, but they can start at $1,000. So I have a question, the question in, in given in these times. So you've got high end, you've got value, these meetings fix them up and make more profit. How, how did that all work out during COVID? We had actually, while the newspapers and the media was reporting a 72% collection, we collected 98.9% on a 95% occupancy. Our collections went up in our markets, not down. Our renewals doubled. So when the renewal, as you know, the lease is terminating and COVID actually stopped people from shopping apartments. So COVID was actually, you know, in disguise, looking backwards was a blessing. I think do also to, I mean, back to the point about management. I mean, you've got to have great management in order to do that. Our management team with Kenny and Ross, they, I think we were at like 91% most of the properties, Scottsdale, Texas. Yeah. So the lesson, the lesson here is a management is a big part of it. Raising money is a big part of it. Finding a property is a big part of it. And that's, that's our message. So Grant, I want to thank you. You know, congratulations for your success on this program. And then we'll come back. We'll be going and talking more about what, what different markets we're in. Okay. We'll be right back. Thanks for being on the program, Grant. Thanks, Robert. Thanks Kim. Appreciate it. Okay. All right. Take care. Welcome back. Robert Kiyosaki, the Rich Dad Radio Show, the good news and bad news about money. Once again, listen to the Rich Dad Radio program, anytime, anywhere on iTunes, Android, and YouTube. And all of our programs are archived at richdadradio.com. We archive them because we're a purely educational company. We do not raise money. We don't sell anything. And so repetition is one of the best ways you learn. So if you'd like to listen to this program again, go to richdadradio.com and most importantly, our friends, family and coworkers who need to learn about especially real estate today, because it's such a hot subject, go to richdadradio.com. And again, I want to thank Grant Cardone. The message here is that everybody has a different formula. As my rich dad always said, there's a million ways of financial health heaven. And a billion ways to financial hell. And right now many people are going to hell because, um, they really don't know what they're doing without financial education. They do not do. So back in 1996, you know, Kim and I created the cashflow board game. So you could understand how financial statements work in the state and balance sheet statement of cashflow, the difference between employee mindset, self-employed mindset, big business, mindset and investor mindset and all that. So we're just purely educational. And I'd be upfront about it. You know, Grant recommends you just start at 200 units with a partner. Uh, I would don't recommend that. I mean, you can invest with him and do that, but I would personally not do that. So Kim, why don't we just start with how you got started? Because, you know, I started in Hawaii and then, um, I started, one of the most dangerous things, let's say you never teach your wife golf. I don't teach her about real estate either. But, uh, I mean, when I, I introduced Kim to real estate, she took to it like a duck to water, but you started really, really small, didn't you? I did. And I think one of the differences in our philosophy versus Grant's philosophy is we're about financial education and the best way to get educated is to get hands on and to get in the game. Um, and so I, I think for us, for me, and for you, for you and me, Robert, for somebody to start on a 200 unit building with a partner, the education is going to be very, very, very different. And to me, that's kind of, that's very risky. So we're all about starting small, get the knowledge, get the experience, get the education, and then build from there. I think that's just a difference in philosophy. And have we had problems with partners? Oh yeah. Especially when it comes to money. I mean, money is psychotic, it's a psychotic subject. And so if you're only going into real estate for the money and the return, then probably rich dad is not your, your philosophy to follow. Um, but if you're in it for the longterm for the education and to grow it and to, and to hang onto it, then yes. Yes. So as you were saying, I, I started with a little two bedroom, one bath house, you know, Portland, Oregon, $5,000 down payment on a $45,000 house. Um, nervous, scared, scared about making a mistake. What if the market turned? What if the tenant moved out? All of that, all of that. But it was these, these small properties. Then we went from, you know, another single family, single family went to six flex, went to a 12 flex, went to an 18 flex. Um, and every time more mistakes, more learning, more knowledge. But now, now we can do the big deals because we've, we've got that foundation of education and experience behind us. Right. And, and for us, you know, the question is, how do you find a good deal? Well, you got to look, but you got to know what you're looking for and that takes a while to learn. Right. Yeah. What kind of real estate and where is it? And I mean, it's, it, the landscape has changed so dramatically in the last two years with all the migration. As you talk about Robert, people moving out of States, um, to get to more non-regulated States where they want their freedom. Um, as Grant said, the blue States are very, very popular right now. Right. And the other thing too, is interest rates going near zero. Excuse me. The red states are popular, not the blue States. They're moving from the blue States to the red States. I get my colors mixed up. So anyway, with interest rates dropping so low, you know, that's why people are kind of jumping into real estate because it makes it affordable. But when they drop interest rates, prices go up. And so today, if you could talk to most people, we're in a bubble. And that's the dangerous part because if I'm not saying they will, if they raise interest rates, the bubble busts. And that's why I'm talking about liquidity. Liquidity is how fast can you sell it? For example, if I buy a new pair of let's say shoes and I pay a hundred bucks for the shoes, how long will it take me to sell those pair of shoes? Take me a while. Cause nobody wants them. And there's the same with real estate. If nobody doesn't, if people don't know what it feels like to have a piece of real estate, nobody wants for whatever reason they don't want it. Well, look at Robert, look at the commercial office. Now they're all empty. They're if you can find a way to repurpose them. Great. That's what's needed right now, but I wouldn't want to own a big office building right now, anywhere. No, you have to, I mean, I highly suggest because real estate, once you buy it, you bought the Titanic, you know, they'll either take you to heaven or I'll take you to down to the bottom of the ocean. And thank God we've never had that happen to us. But also what happened was when Kim, as we got more successful buying the property and Kim was the property manager. And then what happens, property management consumes you, you know, and just like your dad said to you, I don't want to fix toilets and well, nobody wants to fix toilets, but that's what the property manager does. Plus it's a contractual agreement between you and the renter and they can violate and they can trash the property. We've had a property manager steal from us. You know what I mean? It's just one big zoo. It's a Jerry Springer show on steroids once you get into property management. And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's harder. It's harder to self manage your properties, but the education and the knowledge you get. Um, cause even when we had an onsite manager, we're still the owners of the property. We still make the final decision. I'll never forget many, many, many years ago, getting a call at, at 1130 at night. And this tenant was trying to move out with our stuff. It was a, it was a furnished, a furnished house. They were taking the refrigerator, the stove and the police had to come. And it's like, I look at that experience. I wouldn't trade that for anything. You know, something's wrong. When there's a U-Haul in front of your property at three o'clock in the morning. So what, what grant is saying is very accurate. You know, he's, he's looking for a creds and non-accredits. A credit is a definition of a quality, a class of investor, a non-accredited means somebody who's not accredited and you'd be careful. But if you want to invest with Grant Cardone, then he's the perfect guy to give a thousand dollars to or 10,000, whatever you want to do. And he'll do all the work for you. That's a different type of investment. So at Rich Dad, we always recommend you learning by experience to do what you do. And then you'll, um, you can go through the process because it's a process. Remember that guy, Kim, I still remember he wasn't paying you rent. And I walked up to the place and Kim had to evict the guy. And I gave you so much credit because he was about, let's say, 35 years old, pretty muscular. And Kim's standing there. And the sheriff serves the guy for the eviction. I tell you, you haven't evicted, evicted somebody. It's pretty interesting. Interesting. So the guy is coming down the house, he's emptying the property and he's giving us a stink eye. He goes like, it's Christmas time. I got two kids, you know, but I still didn't pay the rent. And so he's being evicted. And every time he moves the stuff onto the sidewalk, he gives us a stink eye. And I felt for you, Kim. I mean, you know, Kim's is just not very muscular. She's very attractive, but not muscular. This guy's giving her this thing. This was the funniest thing. You know, Kim says it's worth, it's worth the misery. So this guy is giving me a stink eye. It's Christmas time. And then he's got two daughters. He's dragging his Christmas tree out and all this stuff. And it comes up to me and he's still giving me the stink guy. And he says, you know, it's Christmas. And Kim just holds a line. And what am I going to do with my furniture? You know, it's all on the sidewalk out there and you do, do, do, do, do, do, do. And this truck pulls up and they loaded this furniture onto the truck. They thought it was, they thought it was rubbish. When I sat there talking to him, I'm looking over his shoulder. And these guys said, Oh, it must be Christmas. And they're throwing all of his furniture and his Christmas tree on their truck. And I said to him, why do you keep talking to me? Pretty soon you won't have anything to move. Remember that, Kim? I remember. And you know, that goes back to another really valuable lesson in that same situation is you also have to understand the rules around rental properties. And some States are very pro landlord and some States are very pro tenant and Arizona was very pro landlord. So when I took that case to the circuit court for eviction, she actually, the judge actually reprimanded me. And she said, you have this, this person hasn't paid rent in four months. How come you haven't collect? How come you have let them go this long? And I'm like, well, I'm trying to help them out. I'm trying to be nice. I'm trying to, it's getting near the holidays and, and just trying to help people. She's like, you have to enforce the law. You have to enforce the rules that you should have evicted him three months ago. And she read me the riot act, but it was a great again. Had I not had that experience, I wouldn't have understood how the laws operate and what needs to happen. So yeah, that hands-on, you know, doing the real things, it's where real learning happens. Yeah. And she's still a personal friend of ours, isn't she? Yeah. Yeah. The judge is great. She says, she's by the way, I read Richard, I poured out. It was a crack up, but that's how we learn. And so today, Kim, we don't manage it. Ken McElroy. So how do we transition to Kenny? What did he say to us? So when we met Kenny we were managing, our biggest property we had was about 35 units and when I, and we couldn't buy anymore because I couldn't manage anymore. I didn't have the time. And so I was so happy to find Kenny because Kenny's philosophies in real estate and cashflow are totally aligned to ours. And we're like, Oh good. Can you, can you start managing our properties? And he said, no, I can't because I only do 150 units or more in management. And at that time they were just property management. Now they're doing development and of course acquisitions. Um, and so that forced us to up our game and to find 150 unit property. And then he, he and his, he and his team manage, manage that for us. And they have since managed, they're managing all our properties today. We're now up to about 10,000 units. So he's very similar. Kenny McElroy is very similar to Grant Cardone. If you don't want to manage and find and go through the headaches and the legal battles of property, then you give Grant your money and he'll do it for you. As the same as Kim and I right now, we just give, we just call Kenny up, say we need debt. This may, this may not make sense to us. Tom Wheelwright's book, um, tax-free wealth. We need debt to offset our taxes. It doesn't make sense to most people, but I'll call Kenny. I said, Kenny, I need about 20 million in debt. So he'll buy a property and borrow the $20 million so I can amortize and depreciate the property. That's the game of real estate. So Grant Cardone does some, some things very similar to what Kenny does. And I would recommend investing with Grant then if you're so inclined, but you've got to be still got, you still have to do your due diligence. You still got to do your homework. Yeah, I still got to do your homework. But real estate is not like a mutual fund or a stock or a bond. You, you buy it, you own it. And if you make a mistake, you really own it. You know, nobody else does. That's why. So, um, real estate is a very different game. We love the game. I mean, um, it's the best game in the world, but you have to decide do you want to be good at it or do I just want to give real estate, my money to somebody like Grant Cardone. And that's the big difference here. Okay. Sarah, any comments before I end? Um, I, you know, it's just different philosophies and I, and we've always said, you know, like Kim always has the example. If you, you know, get in the game of silver, you just have to put a little skin in the game. And I like the philosophy of starting small, but everybody's philosophy is different and how they get rich. So, um, I like the two different views. Um, but you know, I'm used to the rich dad message. So, so I understand starting small, but you're looking right now yourself, aren't you? Yeah, actually we just put in an offer, um, for it's a, it will Airbnb it. It's a property on the lake where we're in the lake. It's on Sylvan lake in Indiana. So it's cold right now. I was just out there and there's snow starting. Um, but, and before people think I'm crazy, it'll there, my brother has two other houses on the same lake and they're packed all summer long. However, because we're on the shore side, um, we'll have hunting fish, ice fishermen. So I see the opportunity in it being a year round. Already selling. I love it. So it's my first one. So I expect a lot of mistakes and a lot of pain, but you know, I've been sitting on this idea for, you know, you know, I've wanted to do it. And I finally decided I've got to get over my fear of failure. I've got to just do it. So I'm doing. So that's what I mean is she'll soon find out what she knew and what she didn't know. But what you don't know will pop up really quickly. Fully expect, fully expect that a lot of headache. I'm like a proud father going, Oh, Oh, I, you know, I want to protect Sarah, but if I protect you, you don't learn anything. Yeah. Well, and if I just sit on, I might feel it. If I just sit on the sidelines and watch, you know, we have a lot of relationships with other, you know, investors and that sort of thing. And I just get to watch all of their failures and success. And to me that's not fun anymore. Like I want, I'm ready. I'm ready to fail. So Airbnb, you're going to Airbnb. Yeah. It'll be a weekly short-term rental opportunity. Well, welcome to the insanity. My hair's going to suddenly go more gray, but no, I'm really excited. And, and to, we were talking a little bit in the show about partnering with somebody who's done it. My brother has been doing this for 10 years on that Lake. He has, what's great is he has a handyman. He has a property manager. He has a house cleaner. So he has all those. Yeah. So that'll make it a little bit easier. Not that I expect it to totally be easy, but so that's the benefit. And partnering with somebody like him. Very smart, very smart, very smart. So anyway, I want to thank Brent Cardone's different philosophies and all this. Um, he raises a lot of money, uh, that he, he buys it, secures it and then securitizes it. That's where he talks about the accredited and the unaccredited, non-accredited come in. And that's why he makes more money on that stuff. So just, that's kind of a game against my rich dad said, there's a million ways to financial heaven and a billion ways to financial hell. And if this, if they're raised interest rates, some of the guys will be going to hell. So you gotta be very, very careful. That's why we talk about liquidity is how fast can you get out if you make a mistake. And that's, that's what I talk about. Final words, Kim. Oh, this is, this was a good discussion. I like it. And, uh, it's always good to know. I just always want to keep paying attention to the trends and what's happening with real estate and where people are going. And, um, you know, the whole thing with the jobs market, um, things are changing every single day. So I want to keep my finger on the pulse and learn as much as possible. Kenny and Ross, they're, they're educators as well. Um, they're always educating me and you, Robert, about the properties. And, um, I just want to stay on, on top of the, on top of the trends. Yeah. There's two books, three books I recommend from Ken McElroy, M C E L R O Y. If you're really interested in real estate, well, number one is ABCs. It's the basic, how you invest. Number two is property management. And number three is advanced. It's how you use finance to do kind of what grant does. But I, we highly recommend you study first because let's say the book costs you 20 bucks. So you got 60 bucks invested. It's better than 10,000 and finding out you're the idiot who bought the Titanic. Anyway, I want to thank grant grant Cardone for his contributions to the show. And thank you all the same for the rich dad radio program. Thank you.