Miami Heat: Rohan Nadkarni on Jimmy Butler, Pat Riley

Welcome to the latest episode of Five on the Floor on the Five Reasons Sports Network. Thanks for joining us on your favorite podcast app, Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Red Circle, Spotify, also the Five Reasons YouTube channel. Make sure you hit like, subscribe, and turn the notifications on. Also, make sure you're subscribed to Off the Floor. That's our new Discord. We're getting closer to 300 members, so we appreciate that. Check it out on the description here on the YouTube channel or on the podcast feeds, or it's also pinned to the top of the Five Reasons Sports Twitter account. This is where you get 24-7 chats on the Heat and everything else. They literally go all night, in addition to host updates and prize picks, promos, and more. So check it out. It's the new Off the Floor on Discord. Also, check out the great sponsors of the Five Reasons Sports Network. It includes our friends over at Better Edge. Use code 5RSN. Get your initial deposit. Well, no, you don't get a match. They're just giving you $20. That's what they're doing. They're giving you $20 at Better Edge. Use the code 5RSN. This is legal sports betting in 44 states, including the state of Florida, because you're betting against others who use it. You're not betting against a bookie or the app itself. So check it out. Better Edge. You get $20 to play. Use the code 5RSN. Our contests on the NFL are just $10. NBA, $3. You do the math. And now, today's episode. Welcome to Five on the Floor, a daily insider show on the Miami Heat and the NBA, featuring Ethan Skolnick, Greg Silvander, and Alex Toledo, plus others from the Five Reasons Sports Network. All right. Welcome back to Five on the Floor. Here's today's floor plan. I'm Ethan Skolnick. You can follow me at EthanJSkolnick on Five Reasons Sports. We've got Greg Silvander. You can follow me at Greg Silvander. And, wow, I remember him from his intern days. Our friend over at Sports Illustrated. I'm dating myself and him. I remember us ending up at an ice cream place in D.C. with Joe Goodman. Is that right? Yes, D.C. Me, you, Joe. Yeah, man. We got it. This is a true story. I was a huge Joe Goodman fan. I grew up. I was with Ethan as well. And I remember I promised Goodman I'd buy his dinner. We went out to dinner in D.C. And I simply spent way more money than I could afford. And Goodman was like, what are you doing? I'm going to expense this. Just let me pay for it. And I insisted. And it was a huge mistake. Sent me back weeks. But I don't regret it because it brought me here today. So that also set the Rohan everybody. Yeah, exactly. We haven't even introduced it. Rohan Larkati, who you can follow at Sports Illustrated or at that particular Twitter handle. But yeah, that that sent the herald back. You know, those days you could expense. Right. You could expense anything. I remember him hitting twenty five percent on the tip in the taxi. And I was like, oh, right. The Herald's got it. I just want to say someone who listens to this podcast, I was very curious if the intro was a production trick, like someone just sped up Ethan one point to five times. No, he is speaking that fast. Well done. You know, the funny thing is, I don't even know what I'm saying in the intro anymore. It is literally just in a brain loop with me at this stage. Like and my daughter can can do it word for word. She'll walk past me in the apartment and she'll be like, welcome to the latest episode of five on the floor. And I'm like, just go get a snack. OK, I don't I don't I don't want to hear it. Rohan, you're here not to discuss hanging out with Joe Goodman, although that was always fun during the big three era, but to discuss the Miami Heat, because for some reason, and I don't know if you push this on your editors, you do a lot of coverage of the Miami Heat, which is actually odd because most national writers act like the Heat do not exist typically. And you are one of the few who actually thinks that they're worth something. So you've done a piece on Jimmy Butler. I know you spent some time with Pat Riley. There are others. But before let's do a little bit of the sausage conversation here, you know, behind the scenes. Do you have to convince your editors like there's this like G League team in Miami that we need to we need to focus on? They don't have any big stars and they've never won anything. You know, unlike I like the Knicks, who we provide so much coverage to. But can I please go write a story about one? Well, first of all, let me just say that, you know, I definitely love doing Heat stories. I mean, it's no secret I grew up down here in Broward County. You know, I mentioned growing up. You know, I remember when Ethan was doing the season ticket blog back in the day, you know, the trademark. Yeah. But I always took, you know, I always had admiration for the journalists. So I thought, you know, tried really hard to represent this community. And I'm a fortunate position to be in at Sports Illustrated, where they let me do these Heat stories. I try to keep it to one or two a year. Obviously, I got we got very fortunate last year, they made the final strip. And I got to be down here for that. A dream come true on so many levels. But, you know, I'm fortunate that SI just loves good stories, man. And it's funny, I have a, you know, I have some colleagues who are Sixers fans and stuff. They're always like, oh, man, you're doing another Jimmy Butler story. And I'm like, it's not my fault. The guy keeps succeeding. You know, it's not my fault. He keeps defying the odds and bringing the Heat to the final. So I understand that people down here want more national coverage of this team and what they're doing. And it's funny, because I know people are always on Twitter making fun of me being a Celtics fan. But I'm trying my best to bring, you know, a national perspective and objective perspective to the Heat. At the same time, like, I'm so appreciative of the support you guys have always shown me. All the people down here, anytime I write a Heat story, you guys always go above and beyond in supporting it. So I really appreciate that. What a humble, what a humble brag when he snuck in. Sports Illustrated likes good stories. Right, exactly. I'm not saying mine are good. I'm saying the Heat happened to have been a good one the last few years. We know what you were saying. It's OK. I mean, there's a few out there. You know, Sadano still fights the good fight from time to time, but he's been co-opted by Los Angeles these days. Israel tries. And then, you know, Levy's too big time at this point. He's on HBO Max. OK, so I don't even know that we can count him. But I want to start with the Jimmy stuff with you and then let Greg jump in here. This is what's interesting to me about you finding him interesting. But it seems like others don't. And I don't get that. To me, he's like the most interesting man in the sport. Like he is. I mean, he's a contrarian in all ways. You tell Jimmy one role. Yep. Opposite. And he'll change it the next day or the next minute. Total troll. But he's like he's unabashedly himself. And that's a rare quality these days. I mean, the man likes country music and brags about it. I mean, that's that's really out on the limb. But I'm just curious from your interaction with him inside, because you guys basically gave him the magazine, which is risky. What did you take away before we get into the basketball part of this, which Greg and I will jump in on? Like, what did you just take away from your interaction with him? You know, I was so privileged to get to spend any time with Jimmy this summer. You know, we obviously we had the photo shoot. We had the interview. I got to follow him around that summer camp he was doing. And I say privileged because I know he fans love Jimmy. And I just got to say, man, he lives up to the hype. He's so funny. He's always on. You know, he's hilarious during the photo shoot, going back and forth with our photographer, Jeffrey Salter. You know, he put me on the spot when we were doing the interview and I was following around this camp. And I think we were at St. Thomas in Fort Lauderdale or sitting in this classroom. And they're like, Jimmy, you've got, you know, 30 minutes until your next thing that we need you for. He looks at me. He's like, you ready to go for your interview, man? And I was like, yeah, sure. He's like, I'm putting you on the spot. You know, I hope you're prepared. I was like, Jimmy, I was born ready for this. You know, he likes to challenge people like that. And it's a lot of fun. You know, I got to watch him work out for two hours. That was just such a cool experience. You know, it's just him, his cousin, Remy from the Heat. And, you know, this is like it was 105 degrees out. He's been at this camp all day. And he just, he is dripping in sweat for two hours, just working through drills. And, you know, what you see is what you get with Jimmy. And even though he likes to troll, even though he likes to be a contrarian, like, he's not playing it up for the cameras. He's not playing it up when he's making his skyhook jokes on the court. That's who he is. And that's really cool. You know, this idea came from, you mentioned, we made him the guest editor of the magazine. Coming out of the bubble, we did a story with Jimmy. And it was just, it was just going to be like a profile of this guy. You know, he'd come out of the finals. It's such an epic experience, changed the narrative about who he was. And then over the course of that story is when, you know, we did Spoh gave me a quote where he was like, you know, I met Jimmy in Italy. And, you know, he was talking about all these wineries he's been to. And I'd been promising my wife, I'd take her there for years. And he's like, I could see the steam coming out of her ears. She's realizing that Jimmy's done all these things that I've been saying, I'm going to take her to do. And that's when, you know, the seed was first planted that about just what he's like off the court. And, you know, again, I know it's an old issue now, but if people pick up the magazine, we have a story in there about him telling us his favorite coffee shops, story about his friendship with Carlos Alcaraz. There's a couple of funny stories that have not made their way online. One was him saying, I asked him, I was like, he won that little drop volley shot against Carlos Alcaraz. I asked him, I was like, have you beaten him? And this was the first time you want to point against him. And Jimmy's like, I've beaten him before, you know, that this when it's a he said, she said, how can you, you know, he might say it's different. I'll say I've beaten him. He left us a voicemail, you know, we asked him to get, tell us his favorite coffee shops on the road. Can I, can I say a bad word on here? Yes. Yes. So he left, he left us a voicemail, you know, listing his favorite coffee shops, and he explained why there's favorite coffee shops. And at the end of it, he just says, cheers to me. See you later, fuckers. And that was just his vibe the entire time, so he's, he just lives up to the hype in every aspect. And there's no, there's nothing fake about him, which is fun to write about. And Jimmy freaking Butler, as Pat Riley put it in your piece. That's a really funny story. I'm pivoting to Pat. I'm interested, because as I read the Jimmy story about a month ago, or whatever it was, there was a Pat quote there. And I'm like, wait a minute, Pat didn't say that in his media session. So I hit you up, and it appeared as if you spent some time with Pat. And that's obviously a unique position, because the media does not get close to Pat often. As we pivot for a moment, and I thought there was that great quote about Jimmy thinking the same way that Pat does. What was your interactions with him like? And just overall, what was the, I'm also interested in like, just a temperature check of all those guys that you were around, it seemed like a stressful time for the fan base. And I'm just interested on that side of it, if you could see any of that, if that any of that was palpable on their end. So with Jimmy, zero percent, completely zero, completely laid back, completely chill. Pat, so this was like, we were in a rush to get the story done. Like I couldn't get spoke as he was still in the Philippines and East Asia. This was, early September, so a couple weeks before the Lillard trade. And I got to speak to Pat on the phone and Pat Riley was incredible. And I think he would have talked forever. I literally ran out of questions. I've mentioned this, Pat was telling me stories. He's like, Jimmy reminds me of when Michael Thompson came into my office in 87 after we traded for him. He's digging deep into the well of references. And as a basketball nerd, it's just, it's humbling, it's incredible to hear Pat Riley tell those stories. But even Pat was really laid back and, you know, the nature of the timing to really get into like the sausage making of the story. You know, I asked Pat about upgrading the roster. It was very understood what we were talking about. I wasn't going to put him in a situation where I said, let's talk about Damien Lillard. And we kind of had to hedge, how are we going to handle this? So a couple quotes didn't make the story. But I thought it was very interesting hearing Pat talk about that. But I asked him straight up, do you feel pressure to acquire someone for Jimmy? And he was like, I don't know that I personally feel pressure. He's like, I obviously want to upgrade the team. He's like, I don't think anyone is more deserving than Jimmy Butler with the effort and the work he puts in. You know, I think he alluded to, frankly, the second apron as he's like, you know, you have to be very careful when you take these swings now with the way the second apron is set up. He's like, if you take a swing, you've got to hit, you've got to hit. He repeated himself just like that, which I thought was really interesting. So the temperature check was, there was no, you know, I even spoke to Kyle Lowry. And, you know, Ethan knows this. Kyle's not someone who is like, necessarily always chatty with the media. Kyle also told a funny story. I asked him about the shot that Jimmy hit against Milwaukee. The step back three, the second step back he took, that was actually a long two. And Kyle was like, yeah, you know, I actually set the screen to set him free on that play. I don't know if you want to mention that in your story. So people were in a good mood, man. And I think it shows the respect the organization has for Jimmy. Everyone was more than excited to talk about him. Two things on that. First thing, I mean, you're right about Kyle. I think one of our frustrations down here in the media is that he's not been more, I wouldn't, accommodating is the wrong word, but just he hasn't wanted to do anything. He hasn't wanted to really engage with the Miami media at all, which has been a bit of a surprise and a disappointment because he did, it took time, but he built a lot of relationships in Toronto. And it's just, it's a little similar to kind of what I heard about Dwayne when he went to Chicago, that he just never really felt comfortable. It wasn't home. And then obviously he went to, we don't talk about the Cleveland thing, but he went, he went to Chicago and it's like people would be like, does Dwayne always like this? He's a little surly. I'm like, I had ups and downs, but I mean, you know, not, that wasn't my experience since 2003. And I think some of that with Kyle here down here, but also you mentioned Pat, like he has not done a lot of these things. I mean, I, so I give you credit for getting him right. Thompson, I know, spent a lot of time with him in the 16, seven, not the 16, 17 season, the 30 and 11 finished where they missed on the last day. And I got to spend some time with him after LeBron left in 2014. And it's just interesting because when I reflect back to that interview, I was given all these restrictions about things not to get into with him, you know, we're not going to talk LeBron and literally I asked him one innocuous question. He goes into it, right? I'm looking the whole time at, you know, and Tim Donovan, you know, we all, you know, we all know well, who's been with, with Pat since he came down from New York and vice president of media relations and, and everything else. And I looked at him like, is this okay? And he just put up his hands because it's just gonna go. It's up to him. He's the boss, right? So I, again, I give you credit for that, but I think when we touch on this, it is important, the context that you're getting into here about the pressure that he feels for Jimmy, because this is a big fan narrative right now. And you know, the narrative has been that to a certain degree that the organization, and this is, again, this is sort of the, the, the loud minority on Twitter, not the majority of the loud minority is that the organization has somehow failed to get Jimmy that they fit to be over the top, but they failed Jimmy. He's done everything that he can. And there's no room for nuance in that conversation or the things that they have tried to do. That simply you had a counterparty this summer in Portland, and that they were not going to go all in any way for a point guard who would, again, who was, they've done this before, who was up in age, had the big contract, didn't play a lot of defense. And so they weren't going to throw the whole kitchen sink there. There's not a lot of nuance for that, for the Beal conversation, all that. It's just the organization has failed Jimmy. That's, that's the perception. And then you're talking to Kyle Lowry who literally, they went because Jimmy wanted him and he gave him the third year because Jimmy wanted him. So I just think it's a, it's, it's one of those narratives. Like there does need to be a little bit of nuance there. For sure. It's also funny to me that people, you know, I've argued with friends of mine in the business who maybe are fans of certain teams. Oh man, the heat, you know, they lost that Larry trade. And it's like, let's see, they were the one seed with Kyle Lowry. Then they made the finals with Kyle Lowry. And he was kind of a pretty big part of both of those happening. Like people already forget November, December, the first year Kyle Lowry was here. What he did to keep that team afloat when Bam was hurt. Jimmy was hurt. Guys were in and out of the lineup. How big of a role Kyle played there. What he did last year during the playoffs. Even if it was in a smaller role than people expected, he was fantastic for large stretches of the playoffs. So I'm with you and you know, I've gone back and forth because people love to just attach the heat to this huge list of names. Yeah. The heat like looked into trading Kevin Durant. If you ask the heat, they know they didn't have a really realistic chance of acquiring him. They knew they didn't really want to get Bradley Beal and deal with that. No trade clause. They knew they were behind the eight ball. And some of these superstars, they do their due diligence like every franchise should do. But when they, when they miss out on these people, it's an indictment of the team. Instead of people realizing like they know they're behind the eight and it's kind of a miracle that they're even in the game. And that has to do with the respect players have for the organization. So, you know, I wrote in the summer, like, I do think that he needs to make a move to help Jimmy. And there's, there's clear basketball reasons for it. At the end of the day, I think that they need another shot crater. If we're, if we're thinking way down the road in the playoff run, et cetera, like, yeah, he needs help. And I also told Jimmy, I am sworn to secrecy on his reaction. I told Jimmy, I was like, listen, man, I think that you, you pull this franchise out of a tough spot in 2019. You know, people talk about what he culture and the marriage it's had with you. Like, listen, we all remember those days, those years. Culture. Is that, is that what we're saying? I maybe I will say I I'm a fan of Dion waiters. As you guys know, I hope Dion makes it back still to this day. This team could use Dion waiters, get to the rim, but I told Jimmy that. So I do think there is, I, I'm not, I agree. I think the narrative that Pat's failed him, they went out and got Lowry that didn't go as expected. Um, but you know, their hands have been tied a little bit, um, on some of these moves that people want them to make. So I do think the front office needs to do more, but I'm not looking at it as like Pat's failed or why hasn't he made a trade? It's like, when you look at each situation on a case by case basis, it makes sense why we're where we are today. And they're still in a where they are, as we speak nine and five, uh, nine and five, third or fourth in the East. They have an emerging rookie, um, who plays just like Jimmy Butler and is going to continue to get better as the season goes on. And, um, and, and they have Tyler hero coming back for, you know, which I believe is a good thing regardless of what he fans say. And it just requires staggering and other things so that he and Jimmy are not in each other's way so much, and they can both be effective, but they're not poorly positioned. They haven't given up significant assets. In fact, their asset accumulation actually goes up over time. And Greg and I believe, and then we'll pivot to more of the Jimmy and Pat stuff that, you know, the Lowry contract could be a potential asset for them if they want to use it prior to the deadline to give Jimmy a better chance. And we'll see if they do. And we'll see, you know, what, what the factors are that come into play there. But I, my overall thought is that the knee jerk stuff with this organization, like I, you know, now all of a sudden I'm seeing all this stuff on Twitter about, you know, Hawkins is the second coming, which again, he's been fantastic. And the organization loves him and thinks he can be a star, but the majority of those heat fans were like a throw them in for Dame. It doesn't matter. And throw this, you guys, you guys did do one of your, your patented. I have to give you credit, Ethan, because you have pioneered this new style of tweeting about the heat where you have a sentence and then there's a paragraph break. And then it's like the most dramatic thing I've ever read in my life. Yeah, I know. You're onto my game. He's also the first acoustic complex, which has worked very well for us. Yes. Which I listen, I respect it. I, I enjoy it. I do think people need to slow their role in Hawkins, even the, even the organization. I think he's a very solid player. I do think they're well-positioned and the Lowry thing is interesting to me now because I have worked Kyle Lowry into the trade machine, surely his contract, but the stats may not show it, but he's kind of been really good this season, like really important. Well, and I'd love to argue with you, but Giancarlo Navas of Miami heat beat, he sent something out recently and I'm actually going to go right to it here and give Kyle Lowry his credit for everyone. So far with Kyle Lowry on the heat, have a 5.57 net rating and with off a negative 4.47. So minus 4.47. So you're seeing that all the metrics drop when Kyle's off the floor. I have some, some ways to poke holes in that, but I'm not going to, all I'm doing is supporting the Kyle Lowry data at this moment. Well, the best two-man lineup right now is, is Lowry and Highsmith. Actually, most heat fans would not guess that small sample size, but that is their best two-man combination. I saw the tweet about, of course, Giancarlo was the guy going to, got going to be the guy to push that out. I saw the tweet about the Lowry on off numbers and I'll say that's legitimate again, small sample size. I think some of that has to do with the fact that they don't have another point card that, that would, you know, so I think that plays into it. And Josh also kind of working his way in there, but I mean, look, if they're going to win a championship, they need, if you look at the overall guard rankings in terms of where he is, you know, shots taken points, et cetera. I mean, he's, if he's not bottom, he's, he's, he's way down in the bottom third and they are going to need to get more rim pressure from that position. They're going to need to get more general aggression from that position. And one thing I don't understand with him, and I don't want to pivot too much into a Lowry talk here, but is why he doesn't shoot more because that's the one thing he still does at a reasonably high level. And it just seems like he's passing up open shots all the time. I also, I haven't looked at the data. This could be me completely talking to my, out of my ass here, but he at least seems more comfortable coming off the pick and shooting the pull up than he does on catch and shoot threes. Like, I think he's still not quite used to being a catch and shoot player. And he does seem to like that Atlanta game. It was like, he was like, okay, I'll be aggressive. And it seemed like he still had it. It seemed like, you know, he could get to his spot. Yeah. It's surprising that he's not doing it. Yeah. All right. When we come back, we're going to get into some more bigger picture themes with Rohan and also we'll go around the NBA a little bit with some rapid fire. Before we do want to mention another great sponsor and five reasons sports network, our friends over at water cleanup of Florida. You can find them at wcufl.com. That's wcufl.com. Our guys, Michael, Robert, their whole team, you can find them in Boca Raton. They service the entire tri-County area. We know about the flooding that was just happening here in Broward County. I live in downtown Fort Lauderdale. You don't need to tell me about it. If I owned this place still, I'd probably be calling water cleanup to fix it up. So water cleanup of Florida, again, your one-stop water and mold cleanup shop, water cleanup of Florida. You can find them at wcufl.com or give them a call at 5 6 1 4 0 8 7 8 3 5. If you got the schmutz, they got the guts. Sorry, I almost missed that. All right, let's get to a bigger, bigger picture conversation here about the heat. We're kind of trending in this way. Anyway, do you sense from being around Jimmy a little bit and obviously spending some time around Pat, we have sort of signaled that there needs to be a bit of a transition with the team this year that we know Jimmy's going to try to be there at the end, but that it has to, if they're going to get to the end again, this time that Tyler and Bam need to elevate. And we've seen it from both of them actually separately before Tyler got hurt. And then Bam's has been more pronounced since Tyler's been out to the point that now if Bam is 24 12 and six, we're like, whatever. I mean, it's night after night, which is the sign of a borderline superstar player when you're putting up those numbers and everybody's like, okay, well, and that doesn't even account for all the little things that he does, which is more than the majority of the top 25 players in the league do on a consistent basis. So you're getting the box for stuff and the non-box for stuff. Do you think that Jimmy would be is good with the idea of this becoming more Tyler and Bam's team, as long as again, they get Jimmy to the finish line where he can try to close this thing. And he's not, he's not limping at the finish, whether it's Josh Hart or just fatigue, like it was in last post season. That's a great question. You know, it's interesting because I, one of the things I asked him, and again, this didn't make the story. So I'm glad you asked this question was why do you think you've had so much success here? Like you are a great player in your own right before you got to Miami, but you weren't bringing teams to the finals. What's worked here. He said something that was interesting. He said, what I love about Miami is there's a hierarchy. I'm paraphrasing. He's like, there's a hierarchy. Everyone knows their roles. And he's like, you can guess what the role is, but everyone here knows their roles. Um, and I thought that was just an interesting way of framing it. And I think something that Jimmy maybe doesn't get enough credit for, and it can be frustrating at times when you watch him during the regular season, when he drives all the way to the rim and passes it or, um, you know, he defers at times where you're like, why aren't you deferring? We know what you're capable of. I think he's like acutely aware of building confidence in guys. Um, acutely aware of, you know, he doesn't need to expend all his energy during the regular season. I know people think he's trolling when he does that, but I think he's being very smart about managing his body. And I think that's also been a years long thing for him. Like Ethan, I'm sure you remember this, like, you know, back his first, second year here when people are like, um, you know, do you want to be an all-star ball? He's like, I think Bam's the best guy on our team. Like he's said that before. Um, so I definitely think that Jimmy recognizes the importance of him not kind of being the only guy. I think deep down, everyone knows when it's, when it's gut check time, it's going to be Jimmy's team. The ball is going to be in his hands. He's the decision maker, but I do think he is keenly aware of the importance of a guy like Bam. I think Jimmy wants Bam to be more aggressive. You know, I think this is what he wants. I think he wants Tyler to be more aggressive. He's always been kind of supportive of these guys doing their thing as long as it works within the confines of them winning. So, um, sorry, I know that's a little bit of a roundabout answer, but I think that he, he also is aware of the importance of guys like Bam and Tyler doing what they've done so far this year. Well, and then we see him go, go visit Jovich and obviously we've seen him talk about Highsmith and then he got Max Drew's his money. And he even seems to like Duncan now, which, uh, which is a change. And I think that's, it's been empowering for Duncan. Uh, Greg, go ahead. Uh, I was actually, um, heading in this direction as I'm thinking about what, who we have in Ethan and Rohan. Um, y'all are probably the two heads that were, um, as close as anybody, uh, to Duane throughout his career in, in, in different moments. And when I say close, like not best friends close, but you know, media relations close, and now you're getting to both experience Jimmy Butler. So I'm asking both of you who, who have been in this position, Duane Wade, Jimmy Butler, similarities, contrast, compare. I'm interested to just hear from both of you, Rohan first though. That's interesting. I mean, um, the difference is definitely like, I think, um, again, to go back to something Pat said, you know, we were talking about the tennis stuff for a little bit. I was like, would you make a Jimmy being at the U S open? And he's like, he's like, Jimmy is unique and he's forging his own path for how athletes can behave off the court. Right. And he's like, it's different when I'm used to, but he's like, Jimmy's going to make it easier for the next guy to kind of have all these off-board interests. I think Duane obviously had that in his career. And Duane was kind of a celebrity in his own right. But, you know, I don't know if it's like the way we consume social media now, or just kind of the shift in athletes over the years, but I think, you know, Jimmy is, I think afforded the opportunity to be, to be more comfortable as not just a basketball player. Right. Like he told me, he's like the basketball player doesn't define me. That's not who I am. And I think Duane, you know, he played on such a high pressure team in this fishbowl for so long that, you know, he would have gotten crucified at that time. If he tried to be anything other than the best basketball player possible. And I'm not saying that Jimmy's not doing that. Obviously I've seen him physically with my own eyes now put in the work, but I think that's kind of an interesting, like, it's not necessarily a difference, but an evolution that, you know, Jimmy's kind of that next wave of people who kind of get to be more of who they are off the court. I think the similarities is definitely like, people really take for granted what guys like Jimmy and Duane know about this sport intellectually. I got to interview Duane about games three of the 2006 finals this summer. He could remember the exact second a bank shot he that went in, in the fourth quarter. Like people, people never said Duane Wade is a photographer. Like, you know, Jimmy, like I was asking with the Celtics, Ron, we've always, Ron, we've always said that. Like I can remember a Tuesday night game in Detroit from eight years ago. And he would just recite it. Duane, we don't think of him that way, but I always thought that Duane's basketball IQ was underrated in that way. You know, what I've always said was that those big three heat teams were the smartest teams that I've ever covered by far, just intellectually. When you had James Jones, Chris Bosh, Shane Battier sharing finance books with each other and philosophy books with each other before the game. But there was also the high basketball IQ of guys who maybe were not at that intellectual level off the court in LeBron and Duane, but were on the court in a different way. I mean, but again, when you had a team with Ray Allen, Chris Bosh, James Jones, and Shane Battier, I mean, that's for like the four horsemen of like brilliance in terms of basketball people. It's one of the reasons those teams were able to overcome everything they overcame because they had an emotional and intellectual maturity to them. And I don't think that ever got enough credit. I want to jump in on one thing though about Duane and Jimmy, because again, I was much closer with Duane than I am with Jimmy. Jimmy doesn't give the local media the time that Duane did. And I was there with Duane from his first summer league game. So it's just a different experience. I saw Duane grow up from the point where he had nothing to say. I remember, I always tell this in the all-star game in Denver in 2005, Chris Perkins and I were in front of Duane for like 20 minutes because everybody was with Bron, because it was their first all-star game. He used to be able to be in the pregame locker room at all-star. I remember coming out with Perkins saying, I don't really have anything to talk to Duane about. Like he was just, he was a kid, you know, and then all of a sudden Duane has a million interests. He's an ambassador for all these causes. We literally saw him grow up. Okay. And we saw the influences on him, whether it was Shaq or Bron or Pat or Spoh, and how he drew from all these different people. I think the core difference between the two of them is, from off the court, is Jimmy doesn't give a **** what anybody thinks. Duane does. Duane does. I think Duane was much more concerned about image cultivation. And I think some of that was from Shaq and others who were around him. But Duane would sometimes operate in a way where I thought, maybe not now, because again, he's passive. But I think at the time, how is this going to be perceived? Jimmy does not care how it's going to be perceived. I think that's a key difference between the two of them. And I also think that that's part of the reason of that is just the era they played in is, I think it's a little bit easier to be that way as an athlete now than it was in Duane's time. One thing I just want to add about Chris Bosh, while we're talking about the team, speaking of my intern days, when The Herald asked me to write a quick freelance story in Chicago, I remember I saw Ethan at that game. It was Heat Bowls. It was the last year of the Big Three. And I asked Bosh before the game, just in the pregame scrum, I was like, you guys have been going back and forth for years. Can you just explain to someone who has no idea what it's like to play in a game like this, what the rivalry is like when these two teams step on the floor? And he gave me one of the best answers anyone's ever given me to a question before. And this was just a pregame scrum. And Bosh is like, it's knowing that you can try as hard as you possibly can, and sometimes that's still not enough. I was like, that is so profound. I was an intern. I was still in college. I was blown away. Those guys got it in a way that was very cool. Chris is top five all the time. Chris is not just intellectual, but he's an introspective intellectual. Chris would stay in front of his locker. He would wait for all of us after the game. I would always joke, I would come out of the locker room smelling like Chris Bosh, because he would spray his cologne in front of him while we were all talking. Anybody who came over, he would talk to, he'd spend five minutes, 10 minutes, and we would just be wafting in his cologne. That's basically because he would just be spraying it all over the place. But he would be staying there until the very end. But Chris is, he's all time. He just, he is, and took things so personally, especially when he was scapegoated for a lot of things during the big three era, which now people forget about. It's just, everybody loves Chris, but things were ugly for a while. He had to deal with a lot of criticism for not being who he was supposed to be when he was trying to be what they needed him to be, because he processed what it was that they required to get over the hump. It was not Toronto Bosh. It was this new version. I always remember Chris saying to me, I was talking to him about defense and everything. He's like, I sucked as a defender in Toronto. I was terrible. He's like, when I got here, I couldn't defend at all. It's just the level of self-awareness that he had. Also, he heard it from other players. I'll never forget, Lee Jenkins did a profile of Chris Bosh after the first time Chris came back from the blood clot. You guys will remember this. Kevin Durant called Chris Bosh a fake tough guy. I got to ask Chris about that once for an SI thing. Again, he gave a very thoughtful answer about it. He's like, I just don't know where that came from. We had a small back and forth on the court once, whatever. I'll never forget Lee writing in his profile. He mentioned earlier in the story about how Durant had called him a fake tough guy. He was like, the same guy who was called fake tough played a game with a blood clot, not even realizing it. He was a special person and a special player. To Ethan's point, he put up with so much during those years that I think a lot of people could have easily mentally folded and he did not. Even the pressure internally from LeBron, specifically, his relationship with Dwayne really blossomed honestly after LeBron left. I want to get your opinion on something, Ethan. I've never asked anyone about this. I asked Dwayne during his last year, we did a round of true or false questions. I said, true or false, Pat would have traded Chris Bosh if you guys lost to the Spurs in 2013. Dwayne goes, oh, he was thinking about it. He's like, I'm going to go false. He's like, the three of us together is what made us special. That's like rose-colored glasses, 2019, looking back on it. I was like, I don't know about that. You know what Heath fans would say about that? They'd say, Pat doesn't make trades, so he wouldn't make a trade. I don't actually think it was after the 2013 finals. If they'd lost to Boston in 2012, and Alex is going to get upset because he's got to edit this podcast, so we got to close it up soon. I can hear him in my ear even though he's not here. When we were in Boston before game six in 2012, and we were all at shootaround waiting around, and we were debating what would happen first, okay? Bosh traded or Spolster fired, because it was going to be one or both if they lost that. Look, Eric's been very honest about this, that he believes he could have been fired three times if he was in another organization. He said this flat out. Once was when they got LeBron initially, and Spol wasn't experienced enough to coach him. The second was nine and eight in Dallas the first year, where Dwayne was the one who held that meeting or called that meeting together in the locker room and gave everybody a chance to speak. Then LeBron's people leaked to ESPN about what was going on in the practices and all that in an attempt to get Eric fired. Then the 2011 finals, where Eric believes if he was with another organization, he might have been fired at that point. Although the only mistake I saw he made was playing Bibby over Chalmers, but that's a whole other story. How did we ever recover from nine and eight? That felt like the end of the world when he was nine and eight. How did we ever recover from that? You mentioned Goodman. Goodman and Wallace and I were actually the ones in Dallas, I think. The funny thing was Mike Wallace, he's now with Memphis Grizzlies, but that was bump gate night, right? We all saw it. We all saw it because we had the court side seats in Dallas. They give us the good seats, unlike in Miami. We had the court side seats in Dallas and we literally saw this. Then after the game, we got Spoh first. Wallace asks him about it. Mike was never afraid to ask questions. Spoh acted like he didn't know what happened. Actually, because Spoh gets so intense in those situations, you don't know whether he's telling the truth or not, honestly. Then we waited for 45 minutes. Goodman and I waited outside the locker room for the players, blew our deadlines. Nobody got anything in, all the rest of this stuff. I was in the Palm Beach Post, he was in the Herald of Time. It was all because Dwayne was basically going around the room and saying, what do you need to do better? Dwayne called us in, we got to get on the same page. Then by the time we even got back to Miami, the ESPN report was up with all the stuff that was between LeBron and Spoh behind the scenes. That is where Pat stepped in for Spoh. It was also, in my view, Spoh's finest moment during the big three era because he had a shoot around and he basically said, I'm coaching this team. That only happens, and we'll close here with Pat, because I think this transitions back to Pat. That only happens because he had the support of the people above him, particularly Pat, but the Arisons, et cetera. In another organization, there is no way Eric Sposher survives that and survives to this point where now he's considered the best coach in the NBA, top three, and I don't think he's two or three. Doesn't happen in another organization. When people talk about the heat culture thing, I don't think of it necessarily the same way Greg does. I think of it as it's the stability to stay the course, and essentially when you need to. I think fans should value that more than just, we need to make a move, which they do need to make a move, I believe, at some point here. I've said that, but there's a reason they've been successful, and I think it's more the stability piece of it. Let me tell two quick stories. One of these, I think I've said somewhere before, but- Alex is going to kill you. Go ahead. I'm so sorry, but Pat, I asked, Pat kept going off on tangents. As you know, Ethan, one thing he said was Mickey called him the year they won 15 games, that 07-08 season, said Mickey called him the second half of the season, and he said, Pat, you're the greatest coach of all time. Why don't you just resign? This team's terrible. Pat knew at that point that Spoh was going to be the coach of this team next year. He knew then, and he was like, Spoh's too good. I don't want to resign yet because he's going to win too many games down the stretch, which I thought was nice. He knew then, and I asked him, because Pat is famous for being master motivator, right? Is he writing Jimmy notes during the postseason? Do they have a moment? I'm searching for that scene, or Pat, and he's like, I have an open door, but Spoh handles that now. Pat's not meddling. He lets Spoh do his job, and I think that says a lot about the confidence they have in him and how that's been built over time. What you see on the floor, it's not like, obviously there's a relationship there, but the Heat are more reflective of Spoh's image every day than they are Pat because they've empowered him. Well, and also the development, the shift to the organization is in large part of Spoh's shift. Not that the Heat didn't develop players before, so everybody can save their calls to me on that. I know they did, but I'm just saying, and look, Pat unearthed plenty of undrafted gems when we didn't talk about it from New York. I mean, Starks and Mason and down here, the Anthony Carters of the world, Bruce Bowens, et cetera, like Austin, we can go on and on, but it has become a linchpin of what they do now. And a lot of that is some of the changes that Spoh wanted and pushed through in recent years, and they are more reflective. It says something that their assistants now, their four primary assistants now are all former players from different eras. I mean, that tells you something about what they're trying to create. And again, a lot of this has been Spoh driven. These are players who played for Spoh. In some cases, Spoh was on the bench with a couple of Malik Allen, obviously predated Spoh, but Spoh was an assistant at that time, and Caron as well. So that's kind of, it is more of a Spoh thing now. I always thought it was interesting, and people were surprised when LeBron was about to leave, and there was the whole Guts press conference and all that, where I asked him what his relationship was with LeBron at that time, and he said, we have a texting relationship. And I think people were surprised by that, why it wouldn't be closer to that. I feel like, although we may not say that he and Jimmy are going to dinner all the time, I feel like there's more of a symbiotic relationship with Jimmy than there was with Bron, that Jimmy is more Pat Speed in terms of the way that he approaches life and doesn't care about what people think about him. Whereas LeBron, as we know, can be a little on the passive aggressive side and a little bit conscious of everything that's going on to the point that he's going on Twitter, he's doing his NFL picks on Instagram and all the stuff. It's a little bit different. To your texting point, Pat did tell me that Jimmy tried to FaceTime him. I was like, when's the last time you talked to Jimmy? He's like, he tried to FaceTime me the other day, but it was too early in the morning, and then I called him later and told him that the little drop shot he hit against Al Graz was stupid, or something like that. So they definitely get along. Pat likes the emojis. Yeah. Pat likes the emojis. And you know what Spoh likes, and I'm not going to give away more so you can see. Spoh likes the LOL. That's funny. That's incredible. There you go. All right. Final thing. I really hear Alex in my ear. We can go for about three hours with you, and I should just throw this file over to Alex. This is incredible. This is what I wanted. You can see how we prepare. We've always got a show sheet. Let me just throw this at you as I drop my pen. Did you get the sense from Pat that, because I asked him this question in 2014, of the 14, 15 season, when are you leaving? And he's like, you know, we're, you know, I'm waiting for us to win a title. And then Chris, his wife and I, we're not even, we're going to skip the champagne ceremony and we'll be at the South of France. Now we're nine years later. He's still chasing the championship. They've been in the finals a couple of times since what do you think? How long do you think he sticks this out? You know, I was so close to asking him directly, but I, I'm going to be completely honest. I was nervous the entire conversation. And I was like, I feel like if I ask a non-Jimmy question, I'm going to get an angry phone call from someone I don't want to get an angry phone call from. Even though Pat was very sweet. I did, I did ask him, I was like, how motivated are you to win for Jimmy? And he's like, incredibly motivated for not just him, the entire organization, Mickey Spoh, every single coach. Um, the sense I got was the sense you probably got then it's like, he wants that last one badly. And for, for everyone involved, I think he knows I, this is pure speculation. I think deep down, he knows how important that next one's going to be kind of after the big three era, especially in, I got the sense that he's motivated for the entire organization. All right. We'll see. Um, like the biggest lie ever told is Pat's going to retire to Malibu, right? That doesn't seem like that's happening. Ron, we appreciate it again. We can stay for another two hours, but, uh, we I'd have my angry producer in my ear right now. Thanks to our sponsors, better edge, water cleanup, Greg, obviously. And, uh, off the floor, make sure that you subscribe to our discord feed. Have a good day, everybody. Thank you for listening to the five on the floor on the five reason sports network. After all someone needs to listen to my dad.