Ingo Swann's Penetration with Daz Smith

Thinking Allowed, conversations on the leading edge of knowledge and discovery, with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove Hello and welcome. Today we're going to explore Ingo Swann's mysterious book, Penetration. Many of you will know that Ingo Swann is often regarded as the father of remote viewing. His book, Penetration, has to do with the mystery of UFOs and of course there are many other facets of Ingo Swann's remarkable life related to UFOs. My guest today is Daz Smith. He is the publisher of the 8 Martinis magazine for the remote viewing community. He is also author of several books including Surfing the Psychic Internet, Remote Viewing Dialogues, CRV, Controlled Remote Viewing, and Remote Viewing 911. Daz is based in the United Kingdom and now I'll switch over to the internet video. Welcome Daz. It's a pleasure to be with you today. Hi, yeah, and thanks for having me along. It's great to be here. I'm a great admirer of your work. Thank you. Well, we're going to be talking about Ingo Swann today. I've done other programs about Ingo Swann. I know he's somebody you met with personally and I guess for our viewers who may not be familiar with Ingo, it would be fair to say that he's almost universally regarded as the father of remote viewing, even though that might be somewhat misleading. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Although, you know, when you asked him this question, he always said the real father was Harold Puthoff, you know, his co-founder in it really. But yes, he's known around the world as the father of remote viewing. Of course, to me, remote viewing is just simply what we used to call free response clairvoyance and that's been around for many, many decades before Ingo Swann and Harold Puthoff and the team at the SRI and SAIC came on the scene. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I think what Ingo added to the previous experiments was he added that we should all practice what we were doing more scientifically within the scientific protocol. And that's what makes, you know, remote viewing different from what I call the classical techniques. Yeah. You've been involved in remote viewing now yourself for several decades. Yeah. I'm 24 years, going on 25 years as we speak. Yes. Practicing, you know, pretty much every day, definitely every week. And for the last four years, one of the very few on the planet, full time paid remote viewers as well. Which is very impressive. And I know you're working in an area of forecasting financial trends, particularly in the Bitcoin market. Yeah. Cryptos. We do go markets as well. And the other markets, you know, the S&P 500 and stuff, but generally cryptos and news predictions as well. Yeah. You also had the pleasure of visiting Ingo Swann at his home in New York City. Yes, I did. In 2011, Ingo invited me to stay for a week. I only stayed for the day in the end because he was getting quite ill at that point. But it was, I have to say, it was a magical experience walking into Ingo's and then seeing, you know, being surrounded by his artwork and all his files and books. Yeah. That was a pretty amazing experience for someone like me who has been engrossed and, you know, really interested in this subject for over two decades. You had hundreds of questions that you wanted to ask, Ingo, and I imagine you did ask as many as you could in the time that you had. Yes. We covered all subjects. I wanted to ask quite a lot of questions myself about the history of CRV because it's still quite fragmented, you know, the entire history of RV and CRV. And, you know, I spent many years now trying to piece that together through freedom of information documents. But I also wanted to ask him questions as well related to the latest article that I just put out and about, you know, his book Penetration and his alleged remote viewing of the moon for intelligence agencies. Well, Ingo is really famous for having used remote viewing to visit the moon, Jupiter, Mercury, I think, Mars, prior to the various NASA space probes and for coming up using remote viewing with accurate information about those planets that was not known by the astronomical community at the time. Yeah. Ingo did some great work on it. I call it explorative work. And not enough is done with that in remote viewing to this day. So I'm hoping to reignite that. But yeah, he started off with Jupiter in 1973 and moved on to Mercury in 74, the moon in 75. Then he went back to Mars three, actually four times in 1975, 1976, twice. And then he went back in 1984 with a larger project with his best student in the CRV technology, Tom McNair. And that was that was a pretty spectacular project that Tom recently presented at Irva this year. It was well known, it was quite public that Ingo seemed to be able to use remote viewing or what some people then were calling traveling clairvoyance to visit other planets and to accurately describe technical details about those planets. That was public information. Yeah, absolutely. And Ingo did some great work, for example, on Jupiter, describing things that weren't thought of in science before he actually described them. And if anyone's interested, in the University of West Georgia, in their archives, which they're just putting online, the archives of all Ingo Swander's files, there's a very detailed report in there of all Ingo's observations. And it's really interesting because over the years, as he got more feedback, because he explored it before any probes had gone there, but over the years, as he gathered more evidence and feedback, he color coded it in this document. It's really, really exciting to see in his own hand. I'm pretty sure that one of the findings he came up with was the idea that there were rings around Jupiter. Yes. Yes, he did, yes. Now his book, Penetration, which we'll be talking about, is very mysterious to most people. Not that there's anything mysterious in the book itself, it's very straightforward. But the phenomena that he claims he observed and reports on in that book seem so out of the ordinary, one might even say bizarre, that I think many people, including myself, have a hard time believing it, and at the same time, a hard time disbelieving it. Yeah, absolutely. And when I was face-to-face with Ingo, I asked him questions about that book, and one of them was that very question. I literally said, when you read the book, it does read like a fantastical story, and a lot of people find it hard to believe. And he straight-faced me, and Ingo sat there, and all the time he sat there, he had a big cigar, and he was puffing on his big cigar, and he bent forward, and he looked me straight in the eye, and he said, if you think it's fantastic, how do you think it felt for me going through the entire process? He left me with no other idea of the situation than it was all a genuine experience to him. And we'll talk about it in some detail, but before we get into it, I think it's fair to say that the people who knew Ingo intimately, people who studied Ingo's remarkable clairvoyant abilities, people who were his students and friends, have all acknowledged that this man was a straight shooter. He was not the type of person to fabricate a story. Absolutely, yeah. I asked as many friends and colleagues as I could find, and I even tracked down some colleagues that a lot of people didn't know about, really close friends of Ingo's, who worked on the same projects, coincidentally, as well, for the penetration people. And everyone to a T said, and I know this from meeting him as well, he wasn't the kind of person to make things up or to lie or even exaggerate things. Yeah, he was a very straight shooter. And of course, he worked very closely with scientists. So let's talk about the story itself that Ingo tells in this book, because I'm pretty sure most of our viewers haven't had the opportunity to read it yet. Essentially, Ingo details that whilst he was working at SRI, he was approached by a man he calls Mr. Axelrod, obviously a shooter name for someone. And Axelrod had some very strange bodyguards, which were like two twins, very special forces looking young gentlemen. And they took him on several trips to an underground facility. Ingo was blindfolded, but he kind of observed over time that he felt like it might have been somewhere in Alaska, just from some of the things that happened on the trip. And whilst he was there in Alaska, he was asked to remote view locations on the moon. And Ingo then described, you know, very strange structures on the moon. And later on as well in the book, Ingo details how they also took him on a trip to a location. Again, he feels it was in Alaska, whereby he saw a UFO shapecraft materialize. If I remember correctly, it sort of came out of a lake? Yes, that's correct. Yes. Obviously, you know, it got to be quite a dangerous situation or appeared to in the book because Ingo said that they, it was recognized that they were there watching. So they had to scarper and run through the forest pretty fast to escape. In other words, this object, we'll call it a UFO, was attacking them. It seems, it seems to be the case. That's what Ingo seems to indicate in the book. Yes, absolutely. He even claims he was injured. Yes. He details that he was running through the woods and he wasn't a very athletic person at this time. And yeah, he did, did injure himself a little bit. In other words, the gist of the story is that there's some sort of a secret organization. It's not even clear who they are, but they seem to know a lot about UFO activity right here on this planet. And they were able to bring Ingo to a remote location, a lake somewhere in the northern woods, probably Alaska, where he witnessed a UFO, you say materializing, but as I recall, it sort of rose out of the water from a lake. Yes, absolutely. And it's not that fantastical nowadays if people do research into the UFO field, because it's a pretty common story, UFOs are, you know, commonly reported near big bodies of water. And, you know, we have now over the last couple of years, the infamous Nimitz tic-tac UFO event as well. And the latest piece of footage, we actually have one of those descending down under the surface of the water as well. In your new issue of Eight Martinis, you go into Ingo's exploration of potential ET contacts on the Earth. You include, for example, an old 1992 article that Ingo wrote for Fate magazine. And in that article, he issues a call, he says, he implies that these aliens are obviously very psychic. Every time an abduction is reported or a contact experience is reported, the people, the bewildered people who come out of these experiences say they communicated with me telepathically. And he wonders, why is it that they seem to be so psychic? And in our human culture here on Earth, there seems to be a large scale effort all across the planet to suppress psychic functioning, to deny that it even exists. And he wonders if the aliens aren't the ones behind this, that they don't want us to develop abilities to the same degree that they have. And he's urging readers of his article to move beyond that, to develop what he called the ability to penetrate the UFO enigma. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And he goes into detail on it as well, under a heading called psychic castration. And he details how he feels that this has gone on probably for centuries. In part, we've done it to ourself, but maybe we've been guided in that process. Because in Europe here, we have the witch trials. Anyone that showed any part of an intuitive ability for many, many eons were burnt at the stake and put through many horrible deaths. And in later society right now, we have religions that are holding people back with intuitive thoughts and even society to a larger degree. And yeah, he does detail that he feels that there may be an alien or I don't like to call it alien. I like to call it non-human because we don't know what they are yet. But there is a non-human presence that seem to be manipulating us, especially when they have contacts with humans, which we tend to call abductions nowadays. And Ingo seemed to be quite convinced back in 1992 that the alien presence has been on Earth for a very, very long time and that we were probably the result of a genetic engineering program conducted by these non-humans going back, I don't know, maybe 50,000 years or so. He also suggests that they have a mining operation going on on the moon. Yes, yes. And that makes sense. We know the moon's rich in all kinds of minerals and materials. So that makes great sense. And again, going back since the dawn of telescopes and astronomers, we have reports of lights and all kinds of activity on the moon. And to add to all this as well, I've been looking at this now, this whole moon-Mars situation with remote viewing for over two decades. And I can count literally hundreds of remote viewers under many different circumstances and blind conditions. All of them seem to report on both moon and Mars structures and activity, which seem to indicate mining and other facilities that are doing stuff. Well, I thought it was very interesting that you published two articles by Ingo that came out in Fate magazine. In 1992, he's urging the readers to join him in a new movement to penetrate the alien enigma and to find out through remote viewing what these aliens are really up to. Then, in the second article, he goes on a different tack, it seems to me. He's suggesting that if you do remote viewing without the opportunity to have physical feedback so you know whether your vision under remote viewing is accurate or not, you're not really doing remote viewing at all. You're deviating from the scientific protocol. Obviously, that would apply to almost all efforts to penetrate the UFO enigma through remote viewing. Absolutely, yeah. He does remark in the same article that he's part of this situation as well because he's been involved in doing these experiments. But yeah, it's an enigma. As we know from articles that go on after this, in his work after this, Ingo did go on to do what I would call non-blind remote viewing and remote viewing of these areas like the moon with no physical feedback. Yeah, he did that at the same time. It's very contradictory what he's saying there, but I can understand why he's saying it like that. I would add that it helps as a remote viewer. If you're someone like Ingo, for example, Ingo did over a million experiments in scientific conditions. He has a very established track record of accuracy that you can kind of use as a gauge to his accuracy if he's going a bit in left field and doing a front-loaded, what I would call esoteric-type target. Let's talk about what front-loading means for the benefit of our viewers who won't know that term. Absolutely, yeah. The majority of remote viewing is done blind. In the process, there's usually a tasker that's remote from you as a remote viewer, and they set up a task. They might write down on a sheet of paper or type into their computer, I want Daz to visit the moon, and then they'll assign that a random number. All we get as the remote viewer is the random number, so we know nothing about the target up front. In the case of some of the work that Ingo did, for example, the one we're probably going to be discussing in a while, the article that we found, the transcript from 1999, Ingo knew that he would be going to the moon to look for something. He was what we call front-loaded in that regard. He wasn't blind anymore. The problem with front-loading is that once the ego, the intellect gets involved, it will develop all sorts of scenarios and fantasies and strategies because the intellect tries to figure all this out logically. Yeah, absolutely. Most people wouldn't believe this if they're not practicing remote viewers, but actually knowing a little bit about the target up front, front-loading, actually makes it a hell of a lot harder to do the target because your mind's so busy trying to guess what the target is based on the sliver of information you've been given. Most of us as remote viewers hate front-loading, although I have worked some cases, like I've worked 250 missing person cases for all different police forces in the United States. It's good to know I'm working a missing person case, although that doesn't tell me anything specific because it then allows me to tailor my RV information in a way so that I describe more locational details for them because all the police want to know is their location. Front-loading can be good for operational use, but it's a very fine balance between how much information is too much. Let's talk about Ingo's visits to the moon. You found detailed information in the files. I think you've talked to Ingo's partner in some of these adventures, Bob Durant, and so you have quite a bit of information about it. With the caveat that it potentially might all be fantasy. Absolutely. At this point in time, as with most of the RV sessions that I've seen over the years on the moon, and I've collected quite a lot, we do not have sufficient feedback yet to verify the data. All we can say is a lot of people and a lot of scientists report anomalous phenomena on the moon. Someone like me may have a very good or inaccuracy track level that you can take into account as well, but until we get proper feedback, and I don't know when that may be coming, you have to take all the RV data with a pinch of salt, I believe. Ingo had these adventures. Let's begin by describing them. Absolutely. It's quite a complex situation because in the mid-90s, Ingo made friends and teamed up with a UFO researcher, quite prominent UFO researcher at the time called Robert Durant or Bob Durant. I think Ingo did have a bit of an interest before that, but I think when they got together, Bob was the catalyst that really made Ingo look at what we call the ET or non-human intelligence kind of situation a bit more clearly with his RV. From the letters and communications in the Ingo Swann archives, going back and forth between Bob and Ingo, you can see this communication and friendship really develop and blossom, which then made Ingo also reach out to people in the local area. He went to some of the UFO meetings and gave talks in New Jersey to local UFO groups. From that, they met a person called Richard Butler. I don't have a huge amount of details on Richard Butler, other than he was another UFO researcher in the New York area at the time in the mid-90s. There are some notes that he might have been an abductee as well, a UFO abductee or experiencer. Richard was the client. I guess he paid because he took the files when Ingo died and he said they were his. He paid for Bob and several others to work on several projects for him called the Luna Maris Project, looking at locations on and above the moon. I only have details of one of them. I've had many conversations with Richard Butler and some of them are detailed in the article, but he's very reluctant to release a lot of the information. He seems to indicate that there's an outside force of people that is telling him that he's not allowed to release a lot of the information. That adds to the mystery, I suppose. Well, I know when reading through the material, one of the phrases that kept coming up was DOMA, D-O-M-A. It suggests that DOMA represents a particular organization or group of non-humans who are functioning on the moon. I also gather that there's something feminine about DOMA. Yes, DOMA stands for the Daughters of Ma. Richard Butler, and I guess Ingo went on to believe this as well, and Bob Durant, are a group of extraterrestrial women that are, I guess, organizing and controlling at some level, everything in our local universe. Richard also claims that they're working with our local governments here on Earth, and they're also connected to us through our DNA as well. It looks like they manipulated us in some way, we're their ancestors. It's very strange, and like most things, I have no information to back any of this up. All I can say is Ingo and Bob seem to believe it, and they took lead from this. This was the note that led them to go back to the moon, and they detail it in the letters and in the document that DOMA gave Ingo an invite to go to the moon and commune with them. Now, I know all of this seems very fantastical, but I can say from my own experience working in comparable situations, doing remote viewing of this sort with groups of people, that oftentimes these scenarios that seem to be fantasy turn out to be verifiable. Hopefully one day this will too. It's really interesting stuff. The good thing about it as well, we have this transcript now, this remote viewing. What I'm hoping this will do over the next few years is, because we have the coordinates that Ingo used for the moon as well, I'm hoping that myself and some other people that are interested and dedicated enough might be able to also use this as a platform to do further research to take this to another level. We shall see, but yes, I'm hoping that. What you found in the transcripts are actual audiotapes that have been transcribed of Ingo reporting in real time what he is experiencing when his, you could say, his clairvoyant body or his astral body or his consciousness is on the moon. He expects that he's been invited there by this ET organization known as DOMA, the Daughters of Ma. But when he gets there, if I recall correctly, they kick him out. Yes, they kick him out. They don't kick him out this time, but his very first visit, he was kicked out by what he called a telepath, a male telepath. Yes, and I think that angered Ingo somewhat, and that's what led him to want to come back for this transcript that we have. In this transcript we do have, he does end up summoning the being that originally kicked him out, and he does have quite an in-depth conversation with him, which is very interesting. So he's beginning to, at least in his own mind, learn about what this DOMA organization is about. Yes, yes. It seems like they've been around for, I think they say something like 40,000 years, and they're on an exodus through the solar system in this huge membership. That's quite interesting as well. On the article itself, there's an illustration on the page with the transcript, and that illustration is called MS-15, and it used to be on Ingo Swann's website when it was up originally. It was essentially a clue that Ingo hid in his original website in hope that someone or, I guess this would be a remote viewer, they were hoping that a remote viewer would see that image of, and essentially it's a sketch of the solar system, and you might be able to show this in your video. Around one of the planets there's what looks like an object, and he's titled this MS-15. I found out some details after Ingo died on this, and it was essentially a project Ingo did many years ago, different than this one here but connected in some way, where Ingo went to the farther reaches of the universe and some of the planets, and he did find a huge mothership that was orbiting one of the planets, and he was hoping that other remote viewers would take this hint. They would also do a project on it and send him information, but as I'm aware of today, no one actually hit the target or sent the right information in and got the hint on that one. Where do you think things ended up? Ingo died in a couple of years, as I recall, after you visited him in 2011. He died in 2013. Do you have any sense of Ingo's final appraisal of this human, non-human interaction? No. This is as far as I've got so far, this article. I do know there's more. We do know that after Ingo passed, Richard Butler, the person that was the client for these Lunar Mars projects, did actually go to Ingo's house and speak to the estate, Ellie, who's Ingo's niece, is controlling that, and he did take all the files that they worked on with this project. So he has quite a lot of files. I also know that there were some files in Bob Durant's files as well, but Bob Durant passed not long after as well, so I've been tracking down his files. I've tracked some down, and another remote viewer has a copy of those, and he might even have the audio tapes for these transcripts, and even more audio tapes. It's just trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. So no, I don't have a full picture at this stage, other than I'm very aware that Ingo did many explorations. I have details about a big Roswell crash file that they did, and they had evidence they felt was so compelling on that, that they tried to get the UFO and Roswell researchers at the time to look at it and maybe publish it and try to give them some feedback on it. They were unsuccessful in that, and that led Bob Durant then to make his own Roswell documentary, which he created in the early 90s. So there's lots of stuff there, but nothing conclusive. As I recall, Bob Durant's documentary about Roswell was praised by Steven Spielberg. Yes, yes. Great praise that is. I think he said it's one of the best documentaries at that time he'd seen on Roswell. I think it's fair to say that the entire remote viewing community developed a fascination with UFOs, going back to at least as far back as the 1990s, if not earlier. Yes, yes, absolutely. There's so much evidence that's coming out about all this now. It's a very interesting time to be alive, because I think we're seeing a big convergence of what we're doing with remote viewing and telepathy and all kinds of psychic skills and the admittance from our governments on Earth that there's definitely something going on with non-human intelligences. It's very interesting. Ingo, in his 1992 article, was really complaining, and I think in the 1993 article as well, that the UFO researchers in general don't want to have anything to do with the paranormal, with the psychic. And parapsychologists, for their part, in general, don't want to have anything to do with the UFO enigma. It's as if these two areas of, you could call it, parascience, are both so threatened, struggling so hard to achieve a level of respectability and inroads into the establishment that they're afraid to deal with each other. And Ingo seemed to feel that this is holding everything back. Yeah, yeah. It was pretty bad in the early days, in the 80s and the 90s. I believe things have changed now. A lot of the top, what I would call, UFO researchers out there are using the services of remote viewers to aid in their research. I know Linda Moulton-Howe, for example, has used many remote viewers, including Joe McMoney on projects. So I believe it's working together now. The funny thing is, in the 80s and 90s, well, I'd say in the 90s onwards, really, remote viewing had a lot of really good credibility because of its 20-year Stargate history, whereas UFOs had a really bad kind of day in the press. Anyone that said they were into UFOs, they were looked at even more of a kook. The strange thing is, it's kind of turned on its head now because of the Tic Tac Nimitz explosion of data. UFOs has become really acceptable nowadays. The UFO researchers and the people that are looking at UFOs don't like remote viewing to be communicated in the same terms as what we call, not UFOs anymore, we're using the new term UAPs. They don't like remote viewing and UAPs to be used in the same sentence anymore because they feel that their topic is now more credible, whereas remote viewing isn't. The tables have turned, but there are people out there working together. I think we're getting there. There are people which are using, I would say slightly, they call what they're doing CE5 remote viewing, Stephen Greer, for example. I don't think it's remote viewing what he's doing, but he is trying to communicate with non-human intelligences in an intuitive manner. That's getting a lot of traction as well. Lots are happening out there, yes. I think they are working together. Well, my own philosophy, Daz, is that the human race is not going to enter the galactic community of interstellar travelers until we are able to master our own minds, until we can plummet the depths of parapsychology, until we understand the connection between the afterlife and the alien community, because there are many examples of aliens and deceased humans appearing together in various abduction accounts. What do you think of that? For 25 years, I've tried to work out what's happening. I did start off with UFO research before I even looked at remote viewing. Before I looked at UFO research, I spent many years looking at what I call classical psychic techniques. That's clairvoyance and medium in healing, tarot reading, all that kind of stuff. I have to say, the more I look at all this, the more confounded I am by what I'm finding. It was once described to me by a non-human communication in a channeling session I had that the entire universe that we're trying to look at, and Earth as well at the center of this, is like a giant onion. It's got all these layers, and at each layer of this giant onion, there are all these different entities trying to communicate. Not how we think of things in black and white. There's lots of shades of gray here. Some of them had different intentions for us than we would like, but some of them had beautiful intentions for us. They were just trying to show me one day that it was just this huge, big onion of many layers that was trying to unpeel. You have to look at all the different layers to try to work out what's going on. In other words, the situation is so complex that we have a hard time even finding words for it. Absolutely. That goes through all of the psychic experiences I've ever had. When you have a true psychic experience and then you try to communicate that to someone in words and pictures, you can only do half a job. I think that's the issue they have with us. They're trying to communicate the wonderful vastness and beauty of all this, and there just aren't words for it, really. As I said, 24 years of doing pure remote viewing now, I'm at the conclusion that it feels like there's a force or a living entity of some kind behind the remote viewing process. Every time I myself or people I know feel like they've got somewhere and we've got it down pat and we know the answers, the very next day it's turned on its head and it's almost like there's this trickster in the universe that just likes to keep us guessing. We're just not ready yet to know the answers that we're seeking. A lot of the work you're doing, and we touched on it briefly early on in the area of financial forecasting, is similar to my way of thinking. I've engaged in financial forecasting, and the markets are intelligent. When you begin to find a pattern in the markets or find a way of predicting future trends in the markets, the markets themselves will adjust to that. Anytime you think you've got a handle on the markets, the markets have a handle on you. I think the same thing is true with the ET situation and looking out at the universe in general. It's intelligent. It knows that we're watching. Yeah, absolutely. I've been targeted on many UFO-type projects myself, mainly done blindly. For example, one of them I did for the Farsight Institute was a blind remote viewing of the Phoenix Lights incident that happened in the 90s, where this massive triangle-shaped craft hovered over the city of Phoenix for several hours and was photographed and videoed from different points all over the city. Whilst I was doing that in a remote viewing session years later, trying to penetrate the craft and look around inside to get a feel for it, myself and the other remote viewers on the team did have a communication dialogue with the non-humans that were in that craft. It happens all the time, and it's very hard to communicate to other people the type of experience you have with these entities, because it's hard enough then trying to communicate with us as humans what they're experiencing and what they're trying to do, and then us trying to get that through a very small bandwidth of consciousness ourselves down onto a sheet of paper makes it even harder still. I have to say to people, it's an amazing thing, and it's a beautiful thing to be involved with. Well, I'm under the impression that Ingo himself was very much leaning towards the work of Zechariah Sitchin and other writers who talk about non-humans having a very, very ancient influence on the development of human civilization. If I recall correctly, Sitchin suggests that we were originally created through genetic engineering to be used as a race of slaves to engage in mining operations on behalf of these, let's call them ETs, extraterrestrials, whether or not that's actually the case. But it would seem as if whatever was going on with regard to using humans as slaves in their minds, that ended a long, long time ago. The human race has evolved a great deal since then, and maybe we're evolving to a point where we can begin to think of these vastly superior creative beings as, at least at some level, our equals. I'm not sure we're at equal at this stage, because if so, then if the abduction events that are happening, I have a feel that if they wanted to treat us as equals, then they wouldn't forcibly abduct some people. I feel that that's kind of negative. But at the same time, if we feel like we're doing good to animals in the wild, that we feel that I have a problem, then we essentially go out and tranquilize them and help them out. So, yeah, it's a hard situation. It really is. I don't really understand what's going on with it. I'm not sure Ingo did as well, from all the files that I've read, because I feel his viewpoint did flip-flop back and forth over the years. His early 1993 and 1992 article are vastly different, I think, from his experiences that he had in 99, when he went back to the moon for this final time and had these conversations. Yes, it's a very complex situation. I also believe that we're probably talking about a multitude of different non-humans here as well. So, sometimes we get a bit, as humans, we get a bit looking at things black and white. We maybe just think about non-humans as the greys or the tall ones, tall Nordic looking ones. And I think it's vastly more complex than all that. So yes, it's just so complex, but at the same time, I still believe it's a beautiful thing and I think where we are on the cusp, with all the revelations that's coming out, and I know there's more, because I've been talking to some of the people and I've also done remote viewing work for some of the people that are involved in the disclosure, I know a lot more is coming out. So it's going to be a very interesting time over the next three or four years, I believe. Well, you mentioned that you worked with the Farsight Institute, and of course, the Farsight Institute was involved in a scandal or a crisis in which they reported certain observations they believed to be true. It led other people who learned of their reports to commit one of those horrible mass suicides many, many years ago. But it still, I think, serves as a warning for people to be cautious about how they interpret these remote viewing events. Absolutely, yes. And with all the projects I put out to people, I try to put out a caveat, people should be wary of the information, they should only use remote viewing information with other forms of remote viewing, not remote viewing, sorry, other forms of information. And you should always look for feedback for the projects as well. The stuff that Farsight did, we're talking about the Hale-Bopp incident going back into the late 90s. I've spoken to Courtney about that many times. He seems to believe that because they were at a volatile time where remote viewing was only just becoming public, and yeah, that he was, he believes he was duped into that and it was some kind of intelligence campaign to make Farsight look bad. I don't know on this. I've tried to find out what happened during that time. I did also speak to the people involved at Heaven's Gate about all this and about the effect remote viewing might have had on it. And they made it absolutely clear to me that they, for at least a decade before the Farsight predictions of the Hale-Bopp comet, they had already made up their mind a decade before that they were going to lead the planet by a mass suicide attempt. So they, they, they assured me that the remote viewing had no, no influence on their decision on that. Thank you for informing me and our viewers about that little piece of information. It sheds a completely different light on a, a very troubling episode. Yes. Well, Gaz, I'm very delighted to have had this conversation with you. I know that your knowledge of remote viewing is incredibly vast. You've been publishing about it now for a long time, and I look forward to having future conversations. I'm sure there's a great deal more that we can explore. Yeah, it's been fantastic and, you know, I admire the work you're doing here. Your videos are some of the best video resources on, on YouTube and on the internet. So thank you for having me. For those of you watching and listening, thank you for being with us.