'Something has to change' following Liverpool VAR error | Soccer Special

There's a statement from PGMOL as well which I'll bring to you shortly but I just want to get an initial reaction from our panel here tonight. Michael, what did you make of that? Wow, concerning and I think something has to be done with with common sense and we could talk about IFAB and the rules and you listen that Michael Oliver finds out that it's been the wrong decision. Darren England has told him they've made a complete error, there's no defending them but no one went into that hub wanting to make that mistake and it's Liverpool who've been punished. I just think something has to change where I think it was 27 seconds before they're saying pause the game, pause the game when I think it's van der Ven who kicks the ball out. So they realise then there's been a huge mistake, they thought it was clearly onside and the goal should have been given for onside. However the assistant referee puts his flag up they have, they make a huge mistake, huge mistake and they realise that. What I'm trying to say is we should be able to go back, Michael Oliver who was fourth official then should be able to speak to Simon Hooper who has no indication this has been the wrong decision. As soon as it's kicked off the letter of the law it has to play on. I just wish they'd maybe gone to Simon Hooper and all rules go out the window on this occasion because it was so clearly onside and it's only Liverpool who've been punished and Darren England will be having the worst few days, the worst few weeks. There's no defending him but he does realise, but I just think I wish common sense, I listened to Sue and Steven yesterday and Steven Warnock was incredible on Ref Watch yesterday morning and common sense goes out the window sometimes. I like Howard Webb, he's under an awful lot of scrutiny at this moment in time but I just wish Simon Hooper had been told and I know the letter of the law, we can go on all day long about the letter of the law. What's VAR coming for to get the right decision and that was clearly clearly wrong and Liverpool are harshly done by. However Darren England is going to feel as bad as every other Liverpool fan, every other Liverpool player and Jurgen Klopp as well. Yeah it's significant human error which is what PJ Mowell called it at the weekend. Darren England, the VAR, his assistant Dan Cook, neither will be involved in the Premier League this weekend, Clinton. Clinton, what's your biggest issue when you've seen and heard that, what's your biggest issue with it? They panic too much, that's the problem with VAR, they panic too much. I don't like the rules of where it's continued and they've made a mistake. It should be allowed to, even if it's a minute or a minute and a half gone, go back and give the goal. That's my biggest issue with it. Everyone makes mistakes, as Dawes says, it's human error. Everyone can make a mistake. We make mistakes as pundits, we make mistakes as footballers, everyone can make a mistake. They've made a big mistake but then when it goes back like that, I think you should give the goal. Regardless if it's a minute, a minute and a half, it's Liverpool that lose out. Them points come the end of the season, could be big that Liverpool drop points. It's nowhere near good enough and I know they've made a mistake but too many times when we're talking about VAR, it's talking about big mistakes that they're making. They're missing mistakes. Every other weekend they're coming out and apologising for mistakes and listen, I do feel sorry for them, they have made a mistake but how can you get that horribly wrong? How literally can you think that you don't know that their assistant linesman's put his flag up and that he did not give the goal? Why don't you communicate? Take your time, take a breather, take like 30 seconds and then make the right decision. They've got people like us, they've got fans, they've got media people saying we need to know quicker, it's taking too long, decisions are taking too long. That's why they made a quick decision. You can still make a quick decision without panicking. Can you hear all the audio there? It goes down to do you prefer that? No, sorry, Jay, one minute. Just because they're just panicking. Stop panicking because what Liverpool fans now are sitting at home thinking, hold on, we've just missed out. I'm not saying they might have gone on and won the game but they would have gone 1-0 up. It's a good goal from Diaz. How can you get it horribly wrong? And I understand it's a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and listen, it should be hard to referee again for sure. As fans, O'Klean, I know what you're saying, exactly that. You know, Jules, you were saying everyone here and everyone's watching the game, they've paid their money, they want a quick game in terms of the outcome but what do they want? They want the right outcome, don't they? So I totally understand that but everyone would be in a much better place today, all the referees, they'd be more protected if ultimately they got down to the right decision. If it took two minutes, does it matter that much? It's not going to be every decision that takes two weeks. On this one, it was imperative that they took their time and the rule, and I saw Sue yesterday talking about it, the same thing, is that the rule's ridiculous, that as soon as it's kicked off, as a player, if I got wind of it that it was a goal and we've got away with it, I'd say play as quick as you can and you're off, aren't you? What a ridiculous rule that is. It's never going to get to the right outcome. Do you know what would, I just think, what could, I suppose, make it better? Because you always look at, okay, this has happened, it's awful, it's a bad decision, it's human error but actually what can we do to move this forward? And I just think, could Darren England have said, what is the on-field decision? So straight away, he knows actually what he's checking for. So he's checking for, okay, it's offside, so he's checking to see that. So I think that could be the first thing. Then I think it's like, you go through the process, don't you? You check it and then you check it again and then you check it again, so you make sure that that doesn't happen again. And then as well, when you're relaying it back, instead of just saying check complete, do you say onside or offside? So then that could be, it's more, you understand then, don't you? Yeah, that makes more sense, doesn't it? And this is like, I mean, all of the views here, they're hitting the nails on their head. But I think in this particular incident, for me personally, I think that's where they know they've got it wrong. Yes, it might be 30 seconds, a minute. Literally, they know it's not far gone in the game. I think that's where they have to stop the game. They get the two managers together, they get them in front of the screen, they go, look, we've made a huge mistake here. The lines are there. It's all for you to see that it was a clear goal. We've literally, we've had an absolute nightmare. So can we put it together? Listen, that should be a goal. We'll put it on the loudspeaker for the fans to understand it. And listen, I think everyone would have respected VAR a lot more than what they're doing at this moment in time. And this is why they're constantly under scrutiny, because of these ridiculous incidents. And like Clint said, that could be absolutely huge in Liverpool's season. I mean, let's just pick up the incident. The mistake's been made in the hub and they've kicked off again. And this is picking up from when the penny starts to drop, and you hear it, don't you, in the VAR hub. This is it from the restart. And this is where, you know, it's actually the replay operator who is the one who raises the issue and says, are you happy with that? And there was quite a passage of play here, a number of seconds where nothing's really happening, where they could have stopped. But the point is, Mike, and I'm going to come to this statement from PJ O'Meara in just a minute, which outlines a lot of this. By the laws of the game, none of those officials were able to stop it. You can hear Darren England say, I can't, I can't, I can't stop it. Play has to continue. Their hands are tied by the laws of the game. Their employers would not have it. No, and that's where I was going down when you asked me, Jules, that maybe that should have gone out the window on this occasion. And we can't have it for every decision. Look, we saw a red card in this game. I thought it was red. I've been speaking to so many different people, three or four of us thought it was a red and one didn't. You'll always have a different side of the game. This wasn't. You have to 100 people, they all said the same. So what do we want? And I think even if you speak to Ange Postacoglou, he would have seen this, like Hendo just said there, he would have wanted the right outcome and the integrity of the game. And I'm for VAR and a lot of people aren't. I walked down the street and people say VAR this, VAR that. I was like, look, what we want as a football person is the right decision on more occasions. This was clearly a disaster, a disaster for everyone involved, every ref, every VAR and everyone involved with Liverpool Football Club. There's no hiding it. But we've got to try and stick with it. We've got to try and get the trust back. And that's what they have to get because they have got no trust at this moment in time. But was there no line for initiative whatsoever? So you're talking about the employee would be, they would be in trouble. I mean, what would happen? Because is it, would it be worse than the repercussions that we're all seeing now? Where, OK, you might look at it and say it's a really brave call. But everyone, I think, like Hendo said, you actually get more confidence in it if you did take your initiative and go, OK, it is a brave call. But I'm saying, honestly, you've got to stop it. I don't care what trouble I'm going to get. And it's the right decision at the end of the day. And everyone would be happy with that rather than what's happening now. It's a lot worse for them. Your spot, Joe, why can't they stop that, though? Because it has gone on. Because it's the rules. But that has to change then. It will change now, won't it? 100% that has to change because the Liverpool fans, Jürgen Klopp and the rest of the players are sitting there thinking, oh, obviously we've not got a goal. Surely you can stop the game. Even when van der Veen kicks the ball out. Why can't they stop it there and go, you know what? I've made a mistake. Do the kick off. It's not until you see the operator guy and say, are you all right with this? Are you all right with this? And then they're thinking, hold on. Are we all right with this? Should they have been kicking off? They've just realised, oh, he's give it for offside. What? I don't understand how you've missed it by watching it. Because we're all watching a game. We're all watching a game. They're meant to be glued to watch the game, the VAR people. And I know people can make mistakes. But you can't miss a big mistake in a big game like that. It doesn't miss it though, Clint. What it does is it draws the line of just the... That line's wrong, though. The communication's not good enough, though. Darren England says it's a goal, he thinks. But he misses the lines. But that's what I'm saying. Are you not watching that? The linesman's... It's a major, major error. There's no defending them. But I just wish they could have gone back, really. But do you know Michael Oliver, who's the fourth official, he's saying stop the game. Yeah, he is. So I'm wondering why... Actually, I should just clarify that. When he said Ollie, I thought it was Michael Oliver. It's not. It's the VAR Hubs Operations Executive, apparently. A person by the name of Ollie. So I also thought it was Michael Oliver. It's not. But he's saying stop the game? He's suggesting stop the game. And that's one of the executives within VAR and the Hub. Yeah. Usually in his initiative. And they didn't do that. No. And it's cost them now, looking so deeply into everything, getting scrutinised even more for something that could have been stopped. So when are we going to get to the stage where it's got to come in, where we are actually seeing these guys in vision, actually having this conversation where fans, everyone can view exactly what they're talking about. Personally, I think that's how it's gone down the route. If we was touching on it, I think American football, rugby have got it. And do they get much wrong? I don't think they do, do they, these days? Because they're literally liaising with everyone that's involved in the game. Well, put it this way, there's more clarity when the fans and the coaches and the players can see a decision on the screen and you're having a dialogue. And I know to get to that point where we can hear the mic maybe, OK, rugby, just in terms of a game and the way it's played in respect to a referee, there's a long way to go. Obviously, we've all been there and rightly or wrongly, we've berated a referee and you probably wouldn't want to hear that on a microphone. And that's going to take too long, well, a long time to get to that stage. But in isolated incidents such as this or a goal, we could see dialogue with the referee and the coach or the fourth official VAR and we'd understand the decision more. And that would help, I suppose, for the people in the stadium as well. Because sometimes the people in the stadium don't know what's going on. But if you can hear it and you're sort of relaying it to them, they would probably be like, OK, we can wait an extra couple of minutes for the right decision to come out. A lot of the points you've made and sort of throwing it forward as to how it doesn't happen again are picked up and addressed in this statement, which has also been given to us by the PGA OMOL, in which they, well, they first of all recognised that the standards fell short of expectations and acknowledged the error to Liverpool immediately after the fixture, they say. And then they go on to what needs to happen in future, the key learnings, as they put it, to mitigate against the risk of a future error. And these are what they say. Firstly, guidance to video match officials has always emphasised the need for efficiency, but never at the expense of accuracy. And this is the point the guys were making about they tried to make a decision too quickly and didn't take time to check it was right. They say this principle will be clearly reiterated. Point two, they raise, a new VAR communication protocol will be developed to enhance the clarity of communication between the referee and the VAR team in relation to on-field decisions. So maybe this is around language, the guys again in the studio just saying, maybe it's simple, it's onside, it's offside, might be the way forward. And the third point, the third key learning they bring forward is, and as an additional step to the process, the VAR will confirm the outcome of the VAR check process with the assistant VAR before confirming the final decision to the on-field officials. But just to repeat that in this situation, it was the replay operator who was actually the one who raised concern when he said, are you happy with that to the VAR and the assistant VAR. And in this statement, one more point that they make is that the PGMOL and the FA have also agreed to review the policy to allow match officials to officiate matches outside of FIFA or UEFA appointments. And this is after it emerged that some of the officials involved had been in the UAE just a couple of days before. So there's their key learnings for the future, which of course doesn't really help Liverpool at this stage. Clinton, when they put out a statement at the weekend, Liverpool, they talked about looking at the options available to them. How far do you think Liverpool might go with these protests? Now they've heard this, they've received this themselves, they've had time to consider it, they lost the game. It doesn't help them in terms of the result. How far do you think they might go? I think they'll try and go as far as they can. The game won't be replayed. I was watching Monday night football for Jamie Carragher and Frank Lampard, the way they dissected it was brilliant. I don't think you can play the game. And I think Jamie Carragher said it, I don't think Liverpool will go down that route of trying to replay that game because you can't do it. The result's done now. It's not Tottenham's fault. You can't take the points away from Tottenham. It's a mistake from the VAR team and the referee. So these things can happen in football. You make a mistake. It's not what Liverpool fans want to hear. And if I was a Liverpool fan, I'd be hugely disappointed because come the end of the season, as me and Hendo said earlier, it could cost Liverpool. That could have took them to the top of the Premier League and they've been playing some really good football and feel probably unfortunate. But I feel that they will just have to move on with it, George, because we can talk about this. We can keep talking about it. Liverpool can keep talking about it. It's not going to change that result. You can't take that result and it won't be replayed. Tottenham are not going to say, oh, I'll tell you what we do. We replay the game. That's not going to happen. So I think they're going to have to accept it. But I do feel, I do feel sadly, sorry for Liverpool and the manager and the players and the fans. Just one more thing I've just picked out of the statement here. And it regards that you see sometimes officials one weekend will be refereeing or being an assistant and then they'll be in the VAR hub. And in this statement, it says, while we have a number of FIFA recognised VARs, work is ongoing to create a dedicated pool of VAR specialists, which Jamie, I therefore would assume you wouldn't have someone officiating in a match one day and then in the VAR, they would be VAR or they'd be a matchday official. Do you approve of that? Yes, because I feel that you'd get really used to exactly what Clinton's saying, not missing anything like that. It looks like, although it's all rule based and your knowledge of actual every decision, it's a different skill in the sense that on the pitch, you've got everything going around you. And on here, you're getting used to just watching something the whole time and getting used to the way that the dialogue is presented. And I think that that's important. I think that the more clarity that you get and someone who's doing something all the time will definitely be better at doing it than someone who comes in one day and it's different. You're just going to get a little bit more. I think it reduces not being as consistent. So the more you do it, then you're going to get less grey hair with someone keep improving, doing the same thing. I think that's huge. I think that is a must for me. If you're going to referee, referee every Saturday, if you're going to be in the hub every midweek when it is, focus on one thing. It's no different to us sitting on here, when you first start out, you have to try and improve. You sit there, you want to get good at one thing, stick to it. If you do two things, you don't. But you understand what I'm saying? I think you're going to ref one week, you've not finished to get in, you've got all these kind of things, you're different. Jamie just touched on it, I think stick to one thing that you're supposed to be good at. I'm not too sure any of us are very good at this, but hey, we still keep getting asked about it. No, we're good. But you understand, you're seeing something every single week, rather than one week you're on the pitch, next week you're in the hub and all these kind of things. I think that's huge. And I think it will go forward, it'll be a must.