Interview With Annie Jacobsen Part 1

Welcome to Phenomenon Radio, the show that covers thought-provoking breakthroughs in the fields of UAP UFOs to discover fascinating truths, first-hand accounts, and investigative insights into the expanding confluence of physical and mental exposure to this worldwide phenomenon. Hosted by Emmy award-winning investigative journalist, Earth Files reporter and editor Linda Moulton-Howe, and world-renowned experiencer of the 1980 Rendlesham Bentwaters incident John Burroughs. And now, leading off tonight's program, here's Linda Moulton-Howe. Extra sensory perception, ESP, instinct, premonition, intuition, gut feeling, those are all words that mean getting information from something beyond normal human five senses. The U.S. military is convinced some people have a sixth sense that saves them and others when a danger feeling prevents stepping on a landmine, escaping an ambush, avoiding snipers or other threats. And add to ESP the ability to move matter with the mind. That's called psychokinesis, or PK. From 2014 to this year of 2017, the Office of Naval Research has spent nearly $4 million to study ESP premonition. A program officer, Peter Squire, who works in the ONR's Expeditionary Maneuver Warfare and Combating Terrorism Department says, quote, we have to understand what gives rise to this so-called sixth sense, close quote. The military wants to know if there is a way to strengthen gut feelings through training. But if premonitions are beyond the five senses, where, how, what in the human mind, body and soul receives and transmits information and warnings? Those questions were also being asked by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency by 1952, only seven years after the CIA was created in September 1947 when Harry S. Truman was president. Now, a brilliant new book released in May 2017 by investigative reporter Annie Jacobson dives deeply into its title, Phenomena, the Secret History of the U.S. Government's Investigations into Extrasensory Perception and Psychokinesis. She begins after World War II ended in 1945. That's when the United States and the USSR began investigating new ways to influence and control human minds and behavior. By the 1950s, neurobiologist Andrea Puharek worked for the U.S. Army's Chemical Center, which was one of the CIA's military partners in a top-secret program called MK-ULTRA. That program worked with hallucinogenic mushrooms to study mental phenomena and telepathy. The more Puharek worked with the Army, CIA, and Department of Defense to study human minds, he wondered if the mysterious unknown energy force behind ESP existed inside the human nervous system. But in the early 1970s, some experiments indicated that plants could sense when they were about to be burned. The plants didn't have human nervous systems. So what was sensing danger and reacting? Also in 1972, at age 35, a physicist named Hal Puthoff, Ph.D., worked at the Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, California. SRI was then the second-largest Defense Department research institute in the United States after RAND Corporation. Dr. Puthoff wanted to explore why are there any life processes throughout this inorganic universe? By then, he was considered an expert in quantum electronics and electron beam devices such as lasers. And he wanted to explore the quantum level of biology and the mysteries of ESP and PK. That is how Hal Puthoff came to do contract work for the CIA and other government agencies and to test psychics such as Inga Swan and Uri Geller. Each was put in Faraday cage rooms shielded from electromagnetic fields. But Swan and Geller could still access information outside the Faraday cage. That contradicted the 1950s Puharek theory of ESP that yet undiscovered receivers and transmitters were in the human nervous system. Annie Jacobson also found another ESP experiment from a 1956 Russian test in which baby rabbits were put on a submarine and the mother was kept far away in an onshore laboratory. The goal was to put the submarine down so deeply that all known frequencies would be cut out except extreme low frequencies. Then, one at a time, each baby rabbit was killed. At the precise moment of death, up in the onshore lab, the mother rabbit's brain produced detectable and recordable reactions. Did that mean the carrier of the ESP information between babies and mother was in the ELF frequency? Wanting to answer that question, quantum and laser physicist Hal Puthoff teamed up with another laser physicist at SRI, Russell Targ, to work on a 1976 contract from the Naval Electronic Systems Command to investigate ELF and mind control, as the Navy official in charge said. Puthoff and Targ called it sensing of remote EM sources. Paralleling Puthoff's and Targ's efforts to understand ESP and PK since the early 1970s has been other brain-body work by Dr. Christopher Kit Green, MD, who then ran the CIA's Life Sciences Division in Langley, Virginia. After Dr. Green left official employment by the CIA in 1985, he has worked as an active military and intelligence science advisor to the CIA and Department of Defense. Recently in 2016, Dr. Green was asked to join a classified science advisory board for James Clapper, former director of national intelligence. Further, Dr. Green also recently served as chairperson of a 19-member national research council examining the future of military intelligence science and brain research over the next 20 years. After this short break, the author of the extraordinary phenomena book, 49-year-old investigative journalist Annie Jacobson, will join John Burroughs and me to focus on the military and intelligence ESP and PK research of the past half-century, in which the frequent partnership of quantum physicist Hal Puthoff, PhD, and neuroradiologist Kit Green, MD, have woven together. One of their joint cases has also been what happened to our Phenomenon Radio co-host, John Burroughs, when he was engulfed twice inside the light of unidentified aerial phenomena, or UAPs, at RAF Bentwaters Woodbridge in December 1980. Annie Jacobson, welcome to Phenomenon Radio, in which our subject is like your phenomena and I want to start out with going to page 422 of your remarkable and excellent book, and to repeat the title for listeners who may just be joining us right now. It is Phenomena! The Secret History of the U.S. Government's Investigations into Extrasensory Perception and Psychokinesis. And you write on page 422 about your own internal thought process that began in your mind before you actually produced this book. And you say... Thank you so much for having me. It's a real honor to be on the show. And, you know, people often ask me, why did I write such and such a book? This is my fourth book dealing with national security issues, weapons and war and secrets. In our post-World War II world, people often want to know how I get my different ideas for the books. And so I've taken to writing that little vignette in my acknowledgements, which is what I believe you're referring to. And how I came across the idea of Phenomena was to me, you know, just an extraordinary experience of driving in my car, listening to the radio, listening to National Public Radio. And there was an interview between a very intelligent-sounding British professor of mathematics and the host. And he told this story that I found absolutely remarkable. So the brief version of it goes like this. It was the professor tells the story. It's the summer of 1972. And the actor, Anthony Hopkins, is in London going about to different bookstores in search of a novel, a rare, obscure Russian novel called The Girl from Petrovka, written by this author named George Pfeiffer. And Hopkins is looking for this book because he's going to star in a film about the book, and he wanted to read it for research purposes. Well, he goes to numerous bookstores in various parts of London, and no one has the book. And he goes home empty-handed via the subway, the Underground. And he's standing there in the subway, and he sees a book, a discarded book, lying on a bench. And he walks over, and he picks it up. And lo and behold, it is a copy of The Girl from Petrovka, the very book he had been trying to buy without success all day. And he sat down, and he began leafing through this book as the subway took him home. And what was remarkable, he later said, was that in the margins of the book, someone had written notes, little annotations about the text. So months pass. He's on the set filming, and George Pfeiffer, the author of the novel which the film is based on, shows up on set. Anthony Hopkins takes a moment to tell him this remarkable story. George Pfeiffer says, well, do you happen to have a copy of that book with you? He says, I do. Have a look at it. Well, as it turns out, George Pfeiffer says this was his own copy, and the annotations in the margins were in his own hand. They were little notes that he was writing for the translation of this book into French. And so you have this remarkable story. And at this point, I'm listening to it on the radio. I've arrived at my destination, but I just can't wait to hear what this British mathematics professor has to say about it. He was a sort of very erudite man. He was the former president of the Royal Statistical Society of the UK, and he said he had the answer. And what he said was that it was all mathematics, and that this kind of remarkable thing happens all the time. And I listened to him there argue this case, that there was absolutely nothing extraordinary about this story. And he suggested that anyone who thought it was extraordinary or dared to use a word like miraculous, and this is my interpretation of what he was suggesting, but that they were somehow intellectually inferior. And I just found the whole story and the professor's scientific take on it remarkable. And it made me want to investigate a longtime story that I knew about, which was that the British government had done its remote viewing program in the 70s and 80s and 90s. And I really wanted to look long and hard into the bigger, really the big framework of the psychic and psychokinesis programs and interest by the CIA and the Defense Department starting at the end of World War II. And that is what I did for this book. And you know, John is standing by to talk with you and share with you from his personal experience with UAPs. But I thought before we go to that, that there is this question that is hanging over your book from beginning to end and is still in my mind. You take us through the various hypotheses that went from the possibility of the human nervous system to all the way to extreme low frequencies deep in the oceans. And what I'm wondering about is, has anyone to date in May to June 2017 proved or disproved whether extreme low frequency or anything else is the receiver transmitter of ESP and PK and biological life? Well, you know, it's a great question and it's a big puzzle and a conundrum. And I would say, no, no one has has been able to prove that. And that is why this subject matter is so polemic, so divisive. The scientists have their take, the supernaturalists, if you will, have their take. What I found remarkable as a national security reporter was just the breadth and scope of this, of these multiple programs across decades. The dedication of certain individuals to this subject, their dogged research to prove, to see if they could be the one to prove, you know, to finally be able to give that answer that you're asking. And also the battlegrounds that were created among the different, you know, the different individuals involved in these programs, because it is such an incendiary topic and it remains in the hypothesis stage if you're talking about the scientific method. But what we, what I find so interesting is that the actual boots on the ground experiences that I was able to, you know, find in declassified documents really kind of keep you shaking your head and wondering and really wanting to join along in this quest. And I was so intrigued by your read of the programs that I was able to report on that I don't think have been reported on otherwise about the current programs that go on. So we have this, you know, here we are again in a new age, in this advanced technology era, and yet scientists are determined, and I'm talking military and intelligence community sciences, determined to try and figure out what this idea of intuition, of precognition, what this sensory, enhanced sensory ability in some people is. And Annie, this goes right to Kit Green, MD, and physicist Hal Puthoff, who, if I said that there were protagonists in your book, it would be that those two who have partnered for several decades on various things and played a key role in the survival of John Burroughs, literally, when he was collapsing with a heart problem that was a mystery to his VA doctors. And John, I want to turn this over to you for you to explain to Annie what was happening and how behind the scenes that Kit Green and Hal Puthoff ended up helping with new information. Annie, before I do that, I've got a couple questions as far as you could help the listeners understand. What did you feel, from interviewing these guys, their goal was, as far as, I understand they wanted to discover this, but what exactly do they want to do with this? Why is it that important to them? And you're talking about the broad applications research they do, or? Right. Basically, you got to meet with them, you got to interview them, you got to talk to them. They opened up to you about what they were working on in their programs. What, as a reporter, and when you went in there as an investigative reporter, what were you looking for, and what did they give you, and were you satisfied with what they gave you? And then, last but not least, as far as, do you feel they held back, and do you think that this is not over yet? Well, you know, as a national security reporter, I'm most interested in the personal stories of scientists who work in these military programs, and intelligence programs. And so, it's my role to interview them at length, and then I begin to sort of track the story that I want to tell as I learn more, and then supplement the information that comes out of our interviews with documents that I'm looking for from the Freedom of Information Act, from secondary sources. So, you know, it's a very broad story, and you're absolutely right that these are the protagonists of my book, Phenomena, two of the major protagonists. I mean, their stories interweave in as much that how Putoff led the original psychic program, also called the Remote Viewing Program at SRI, starting in 1972. And Dr. Christopher Kit Green was brought in as the biologist. As Green told me, he ran what was called the Weird Desk at CIA. It was his job to track everything anomalous that was going on around the world, and this is how he got brought in. And so, the two of them have this remarkable decades-long history of working together. And it might be more helpful to the reader, I mean, to the listeners, if you ask, like, specifically, maybe in terms of a program or a decade, because, of course, as I report in the book, they worked together on and off from 1972 until the present day. And I thought that it would be important to go into some of the details that you share that are so fascinating about Ingo Swann and Uri Geller, the Faraday cage in that chapter, and we can work our way through. But John, would you like to share with Annie about why those two scientists have played such an important role in your own life? If you go to your book in the 400-page area, you started exploring or going in more into DNA and UAPs. Was that introduced to you by them, or did you already have a working knowledge and start asking them questions about it? Well, so what we're talking about now is a program that takes place at the Nolan Laboratory. It's run by Gary Nolan, who's a leading geneticist. And Nolan's probably best known for his work in large-scale mapping of human cell features. And as I learned through my reporting, Green is working with Putoff and with, I mean, sorry, Dr. Gary Nolan is working with Putoff and Green on a program to look at the genomics of individuals who have anomalous mental phenomena capacities, allegedly, and also individuals who have been injured by UAPs. So my understanding, John, is that you fall into that category based on what you shared with me about your experience. And so to answer the question, what did I know, I think it's interesting to consider the reporter's job. So reporters like myself hear lots of things and ask lots of questions. It's then a process about a source, in this case, Putoff and Green, revealing to the reporter, me, what they're comfortable with. And then part of that process is an ongoing kind of organic process, inasmuch as that then I do further interviews with other individuals who are involved, who are willing to talk to me. And I begin to unpuzzle the situation. And I'm not meaning to be coy. I'm trying to give the listener a sense of the process of being a reporter, which I happen to think is one of the most interesting jobs in the world. And so I think that that is how the information comes about. In other words, I don't think anyone really ever sits down with me and says, here's my story, because usually I'm right at the edge of stories that people are not necessarily willing to share in entirety. And so it's my job to help the sources feel comfortable enough to be able to share with me what it is that they are working on, knowing that there's a trust that goes on in the reporter. In other words, you're talking about very incendiary subjects here, and you're also talking about scientists with big labs, big reputations, and big contracts. And I think that there is an ebb and flow with trust and response, if that makes sense. The reason why I asked you this is simple. Your book was going one way, and you definitely, like Linda said, interwove them into the book and what they were working on. And then it seems like right towards the end of the book, it took a right turn. I think you're right. Yeah. And you went into the UAP subject. And my question was, were you aware of it, or did they bring that up to you? Do you feel it all plays a factor in your book? I know you put it in there, so you must have felt it was important enough. But how does that relate to the rest of your book? And how much importance do you feel there is to it? And then I can go a little bit into what interaction I've had with them. Yes, yes, of course. So I made a conscious decision to write about extrasensory perception and psychokinesis, also map dowsing, things that are anomalous mental phenomena. And were I to bring in issues of UAPs and unidentified flying objects, the book would have been a different book. And I made a conscious decision, hence the subtitle of phenomena, to stick with the former, not the latter. Now, UAPs, UFOs, et cetera, which your listeners are entirely familiar with and educated on, far more so than this reporter. Those two subjects came up often in my research, in everything from declassified documents that were with CIA and with DOD. What I found peculiar and interesting, and this is not reported in my book and was part of the reason why I did not report it in the book, but for listeners, I'll give you the short version, is that I noticed that the CIA had one way of dealing with its psychics, Ingo Swann, Pat Price in particular, talking about UFOs and UAPs. They were both real believers. And they would write up these reports. And these, again, these are now declassified. I got a thousand pages of documents declassified from CIA through the FOIA. And what I found interesting and also interviewed at length, Puthoff and Jacques Vallée and Kit Green about this, was that there seemed to be a kind of what I would call an Ivy League gentleman's attitude toward UFOs at CIA. In other words, they were perfectly fine letting Ingo and Pat write about UFOs, talk about UFOs, believe in UFOs. But the kind of subtle Ivy League version of it was, you know, just don't make too big of a deal of it, sort of keep it to yourself as if it's a hobby or a pastime. Now, at DoD, it became an entirely different animal. UFOs, UAPs, what ended up being called fantasy targets. And it became a problem. And it ultimately, in my interpretation, led to the downfall of the Defense Department program. And so I do write about UFOs and UAPs in that context. Again, the reporter reporting on the documents, trying to withhold judgment about all of this. So I felt that I had a responsibility to report that to readers. And when the issue of the current work that Puthoff and Green are doing, specifically at the Nolan Lab, and John, specifically with individuals like you, who of course I did not know about until you shared that with me, because they don't share any kind of specifics about patient information. I put that in the book because I personally found it remarkable. And I, as I asked Green and Puthoff, and I write about in the book, you know, what's the link between anomalous mental phenomena and UAPs, UFOs? Because previously, as I've just kind of gave you the long spiel, it had always been a sidebar issue. And what Green and Nolan made clear to me, that really was astonishing to me, was that they are searching for the genomics of individuals who seem to attract this phenomenon. From a scientific standpoint, because you're talking about the Nolan Lab being a major laboratory at Stanford University with big NIH and DoD grants, I found that, as a reporter, very interesting to report on. And Annie, may I insert, just for a moment, your own quote in interview with Dr. Nolan? You said, he said to you, I have met and worked with many of Kit Green's patients, and I have looked deeply at the relevant medical data. These people were injured. I have seen the physiological consequences of the harm they've endured. He agrees with Kit Green that in many cases, it looks as if it is an electromagnetic field of some sort. Continuing now with Dr. Nolan, it has led to inflammation and other biomarkers in their bodies that can be seen in MRIs, tissue, blood. We are now working on both the genetic and epigenetic components, Dr. Nolan says. I am relatively certain we are the only individuals in the field doing this. Close quote. Using mapping technology, the Nolan Lab is renowned for, technicians are mapping Green's patients' DNA and their immune systems. They are looking for patterns among the patients using biological data to create an integrated theory. All kinds, this is Dr. Nolan, all kinds of trauma can be picked up by the immune system. Every event that happens to you is recorded by your immune system, close quote, which in turn creates a biological database. Every surgery or bee sting, Dr. Nolan says, every incident of H1N1, flu, head cold, allergy, or chicken pox, it all is sensed and recorded by the immune system. With the technology that is emerging from the Nolan Lab, doctors will likely soon be able to take a snapshot of a person's blood and read the historical record of that person's physiological life. And that's from your incredible book. And I'm turning it back to you because I felt this is one of the most important pieces in your book. I couldn't agree with you more, Linda. I wrote the 425-page book, and I have to say, these few pages around where you read are the ones that are among the most remarkable to me for two reasons. One, this is currency right here. I mean, this is happening here and that is remarkable. And having been someone whose last book was on DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize, and having learned about the extraordinary advances in technology that the Defense Department is making, when you consider what we are able to do with bio-nanotechnology in a military and intelligence community environment, and you look at a program like you just described coming straight out of the doctor's mouth, Dr. Gary Nolan, this to me is big news. And I'm surprised in many ways that it's kind of slipped under the radar. I'm glad you've brought it up. And I think that people perhaps are not really quite ready to confront this kind of thing. Well, let's back up for a second. I mean, consider this. From prehistory to the modern era, superstition and magic have influenced national security the way that science does now. So imagine if science is able to give us the answer that has always been relegated to superstition and magic. What if science is able to tell us something else? And that is what I think you've hit upon being excited about in reading these few pages. And that is certainly what was exciting for me to report on these pages. And Annie, it ties directly to the now somewhat famous, at least through the reporting that John and I have been doing on Phenomena Radio for the past two years, the UK eyes only DI55 science and technical report on unidentified aerial phenomena that was handed over to the MOD head in 2000 without any of us knowing anything about it. And then was very quietly under the radar, unclassified in 2006. And nobody, including Nick Pope in England, who had worked at the MOD, knew that it had been unclassified. And it was in the 2012 to 2013 time period when John Burroughs became extremely ill with a mysterious heart failing. And that in that period, both Kit Green and Hal, Nick and some others, we ended up getting at first pieces of that original 460 page highly classified UK report of UAP frequency emissions that we were then told were defined as terahertz frequencies emitted from unidentified aerial phenomena. And in the 460 page report in appendix F, as in Frank, very difficult to find even in the National Archives, but it is there. And I made it really clear at Earth Files so people could read it themselves. It says under a subtitle, mental effects. That's the subtitle inside of the DI55 report. And then it says, as in the Rendlesham incident, and it's talking about the frequencies emitted by unidentified aerial phenomena and sense that can manipulate human minds and damage human tissues. And that is directly linked to these sentences to you from Dr. Gary Nolan when he says about Kit's patients that I have seen these people were injured. I have seen the physiological consequences of the harm they've endured and that he thinks from Kit Green's cases that they were exposed in an electromagnetic field of some sort that cause consequences in the mind and the body. And right there in your book is connecting the, we'll call it the UK highly secret report on UAPs to what happened to John Burroughs. Yes, exactly. And I mean, again, we're talking about science fact, not science fiction, although it sounds like science fiction. Now, you know, what's interesting is if you want to take the skeptical approach with the terahertz and the UAPs and the tissue injury, you could take the approach that these are advanced technology weapons. And of course, that is in part Green's summation because he has spent, you know, as you've mentioned in your intro, decades serving on Defense Department committees like the Tiger Committee, a DIA that studies advanced technology. So there's always an out with, you know, Defense Department scientists, I learned, meaning there's the hypothesis, what is it? But then there's the statement, it is likely advanced technology. But of course, the subtext of all of this that one is writing about when they're writing about phenomena is the bigger question and the same question that Andrea Puharik so interestingly asked way back in the 1950s. Is this from within or is it from without? And that is, again, why the subject is so polemic. I can tell you as a national security reporter who lives on the outside of the world in which many of your listeners inhabit who follow a lot of these stories, that is where the polemics come from, because as soon as you bring up the without, you're talking about the supernatural and then people scatter. But what I found fascinating was Green, Puthoff and others were very careful to call the anomalous mental phenomena the supernature or supernormal as opposed to paranormal, because it allows a discussion based on the idea of what they call the Mozart analogy. And that would be that Annie can't sing in the shower, but you listen to the music that and you realize that some people are supernormal. Where it gets complex with John is in this idea that I write about in this chapter of phenomena that Nolan and Green explained to me, which is this idea of the antenna. And I think maybe John could talk to us more about that since he's got the firsthand experience. Why don't you define what the antenna is to the listeners before I go further? Well, there are Green and Nolan and others that work on this project while they look for the, you know, they're mapping, searching for the genomics of supernormality. What they are finding is that in the FMRI, those are the very high resolution brain scans that are now available through advanced technology. They're seeing patterns in the brain scans of individuals who have purported remote viewing, as Green says, and they're seeing it as kind of a cluster, as a marker, if you will. And they call it the antenna, which, you know, suggests that it's some kind of, you know, poetic beacon, if you will. In other words, certain. And then again, you can close this loop by saying, well, think of the Mozart analogy, you know, Annie can't sing in the shower, so she doesn't have the antenna. Mozart had the antenna. But then really, then, you know, you can go kind of go off the reservation and say, well, what's the antenna connecting to? And that's where any scientist who's working in this world, who has a big reputation and a lot of experience will be very careful with how they finish those sentences. Right. And what intrigued me the most was, is that they even brought it up to, you know, they actually felt comfortable enough, not, you know, nothing against you, just the fact that they would start introducing this, because there's no doubt they want this program, you know, they want the program to be put out there for the public to start to digest. Would you agree? Yes, I mean, and again, it goes back to, you know, I had some information that I had, and I asked Green about it. And over time, he, we developed a rapport in our ongoing hours and hours of interviews that apparently made him comfortable enough to, you know, discuss this program further with me. And I felt quite privileged to have the story because I was aware that no one else had been told it at length. And I felt that I really wanted to make sure that I wrote it into the narrative in a way that serves the narrative and kind of honors the intention with which the parties told me, because again, it's a very sensitive subject. So when you shared with me that you were one of the 70 cases, you know, my jaw kind of dropped. Right. And the reason partly why I can be more open about it is two reasons. One is the fact that they divulged it. And the other thing is, is that there was another individual that was with me. They got close to it and they reached out to both of us. And what Linda's been wanting me to explain is we did an appearance at a Steve Bass conference. It was a citizen's hearing and they set it up exactly like it would have been a real hearing in front of Congress and they had ex-members of Congress there. And we did our brief and we went through it. The actual reaction from the people sitting on the panel, including one that was involved with MKUltra, if you could believe it or not, which at the time I didn't know, but he was a senator and he started grilling us, like he was asking us questions like we knew more and we sort of did, but we didn't at the time. But then after we did this appearance, then Dr. Green contacted the attorney that was there with us, half a scone out of Mississippi, and offered his assistance. And what Linda was implying is that Linda's got to meet with Dr. Green and Hal Puthoff. I've been down at Hal Puthoff's lab. He took me down there and he gave me a briefing on certain things, but basically they stepped in and they kept me alive based on their knowledge of what affected me and how it affected me. And then they also did some tests. I mean, it was done when I had the heart surgery and stuff, but the bottom line is that it just caught me completely off guard that they were willing to open up to this because like you said a little bit earlier in the interview, you're surprised more people haven't caught on to this and started asking more questions. You know, the whole subject makes people uncomfortable. I mean, let me rephrase. If you're in this world, you're totally comfortable with it. I mean, I spent hours with Uri Geller at his home in London. I spent days with him at his home in Israel and his wife and his whole group of people. And we wound up at Netanyahu's house. There are people who are super comfortable talking about the world in which psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, UAPs is a common theme and a puzzle to explore. But there's another world that exists parallel to that, a world in which I spend much more of my time, which has, you know, sort of gets hives when any of these subjects are brought up, just speaking candidly. And I have written enough books and feel comfortable enough in my reporting that I'm not, you know, frankly speaking, I'm not really, it doesn't really matter to me what others think of that, of whether, you know, but I am perfectly open-minded to entertaining these ideas because I find that a closed mind is a dangerous mind. However, most people do not agree with them. And, you know, most people who are on the, you know, if you, I write about the sheep and the goats in my book as that analogy, and the goats get very, very intimidating. As I report in the book, any of the skeptics I interviewed, you know, tore into me time and again, reiterating that same concept by the British statistician we talked about earlier, that somehow anyone who's going to contemplate these subjects is intellectually inferior. What's remarkable about guys like Green, Puthoff, Nolan, Vallée, you're talking, I mean, they are so far advanced in their thinking and they have decades of experience as physicists, as scientists, as neurobiologists, as astrophysicists. Those are some of the individuals who are, have held top secret clearances longer than anyone I know and have interviewed. And I've interviewed presidential science advisors and Nobel laureates. So to me, this is really interesting stuff and I'm far more interested in it than I am afraid of it. And Annie, on page 178 in your chapter, The Unconscious, going to what I thought was perhaps the most interesting part about Uri Geller that I had never heard about before, you said in the winter of 1975, Uri Geller was in Northern California to do a project at Lawrence Livermore and that Kit Green was serving as a contract monitor for the CIA that was behind this research. And that what happened is scientists set up an experiment in a laboratory adjacent to Lawrence Livermore in an old wooden World War II barracks on University of California property. Two sets of experiments were to take place. In the first, high quality lasers were fired at a target. And the question was, could Uri Geller interfere with that beam? For the second test, the scientists placed magnetic computer program cards in a lead container and sealed it. Could Geller affect what was inside? And I'm wondering if you could now explain to the audience what Geller was able to do with something you would think that difficult and complex. And then what were the ESP PK consequences on scientists working there at Lawrence Livermore that were exposed to Uri Geller in those tests? Well, this is an extraordinary program you've brought up, or incident rather. And it speaks to John Burrow's situation because it's essentially the origin story for Kit Green, for his interest in these anomalous events where people get injured, where somehow the mind and the body are affected by an anomalous situation. So the way I write about it in the book is I use what's called the Thomas Theorem. And that is this quote, this idea that if men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences. And what happened was the Livermore scientists did those series of investigations with Geller about PK. They wanted to see if he would be able to upset the delicate electronic system on, say, an ICBM nuclear missile. And they did these various experiments with him, and they found that his PK only worked at very close range, not over distances. But far more interesting and important to the story we're talking about now is what happened when the scientists went home. So when you're a nuclear scientist, you carry what's called a Q clearance, and you have a minder, a handler, if you will. And when you report in for work at Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Laboratory, you are required to tell your minder if anything strange happened to you while you were gone. Now, this was set up, of course, for like sort of Soviet intervention. But what remarkable situation unfolded in this during these several days worth of experience with Geller was that three or four or five ensembles of the scientists would come in and report to work, and they would say to their handler, they would relay really weird stories of things that happened in their own homes at night. This included sort of orbs floating around the ceiling down the hallway. One of the nuclear scientists reported seeing a big black raven at the end of his bedpost. Okay, it's the 70s. You maybe say maybe there were drugs involved. But the man also said his wife saw it. And so the handler that was the AEC liaison got really concerned and called up the CIA, who was sent out to investigate what was going on, but Kit Green. And what he told me that he found was that these scientists with acute clearances were not crazy. They were not on drugs. You can't take drugs when you have acute clearance. They were experiencing something that he could not explain. And so he reported back to CIA security that this was just an anomalous situation. But it planted a seed inside of him, he said. And over the decades, he began to collect similar stories, stories where men's minds were affected by these individuals who had anomalous mental phenomena sort of powers. And also, he began to collect stories about people who their physiology, like John Burroughs, was affected by experiences with inexplicable, unidentified aerial phenomena, UAPs. And Annie, when you go to the heart of the husband and wife, one of the scientists, they both saw what they called a discarnate arm rotating like a hologram in the air, free floating above the bed at night, an arm wrapped in some kind of gray cloth. Instead of a hand, the arm had a hook. And that the scientists talked about the horror of seeing this hook floating over the foot of his bed, and how it rotated like a spit. And that you, in talking with Kit Green and others, Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ had made some comments that maybe this was, in fact, an alien intelligence trying to say to the scientists and the Livermore program, we want you to stop experimentation with atomic bombs. Well, I don't know that Green and Puthoff ever told me that. That was the summation by Green and Puthoff. In other words, they never heard that. That was their summation of what the scientists said. And the two of those scientists quit the program. Now, for the reporter's due diligence, keep in mind, the way I report the story is I tell you very clearly this is coming from Green, coming from Puthoff. Uri Geller, incidentally, did not know about the hallucinations by the scientists. But he put me in touch with one of the scientists who did not want to comment. And I was unable to reach any of the other scientists who quit the program. So, you know, you do the best you can as a reporter and you make clear to your reader who says what and why. But either, any way you look at this incident, you know, how Puthoff was made aware of it, Green was made aware of it, CIA security was made aware of it, it's an inexplicable anomalous event. And again, what I found most interesting, and again, you could write it, you could also say it's simply an example of the Thomas theorem, that if men define situations, there are real consequences. So, who knows whether the psychological underpinning is underneath it. But what I found fascinating from the reporter's point of view is that this stayed with Green. It dogged him. He wanted an explanation. And 50 years later, he's working to find that explanation at the Nolan Laboratory with Gary Nolte. Thank you. Let's pick it up now on the other side of this break, going further and deeper with Annie Jacobson into her remarkable book, Phenomena.